Polygamy and Now This
by ana on May.14, 2009, under my story today
I think I’ve mentioned before that I’m not one for planning the future, but Alex is. Since I don’t very much know what is going to happen from day to day, how am I to know what is going to happen years from now? I could be dead in the next few minutes. Planning, of course, is more difficult for parties in polygamous marriages. All the parties must come to an agreement on things – that is if they want to conduct their affairs with mutual consultation as they are directed to do in the Quran.
While on vacation, Alex and I had a conversation about the future. We were relaxing on the balcony of our hotel room. It was a bright, beautiful, hot, tropical day. Alex asked, “Where do you want to live?” Here we go again; I thought. To refresh your memory, Alex and I had this same conversation quite a few times before. In fact, I wrote a post on it, “We are Polygamous - Where are We Going to Live?” It felt like déjà vu when he asked me the exact same question again. I couldn’t believe it. I took a super, long, deep, breath and sighed. I wasn’t in the mood to go through this whole song and dance again. It’s just too exhausting, too draining. I had made everything quite clear to Alex when he and I previously discussed the matter.
Nonetheless, the conversation this particular day went something like this: The first thing I said was, “I need to ask; is Carolinah going with us?” Alex exclaimed, “I’m asking you where you want to live!” I said, “Before I can discuss this any further, I need to know if you intend to take Carolinah as well because, if so-I’m not going.” He said, “Then there’s no need to discuss it any further because I don’t want us to argue.” I proceeded to say, “You could come visit me.” He said, “Thank you.”
Once again I saw how selfish people can be. Alex wants us to move to another State, as the cost of living is too expensive in the State in which we live. Alex always wanted him and me to move from the time we got married. I always suspected it was to get me away from my best friend, whom he had feelings of jealousy towards. Before we married, I agreed I’d move wherever Alex wanted to go whenever I were to stop working. The problem is Alex never signed our Islamic contract, making what I had agreed to null and void. Secondly, the variables had changed. Alex didn’t have another “wife” when I agreed to live anywhere he wanted to.
I could understand Alex wanting to move very soon; you could only imagine how expensive it gets taking care of two families in a State in which it’s expensive to take care of one family. But that’s not my problem now is it? Did I ask Alex to take on another family? Anyway you look at it, Alex has to take care of me. Even if we divorce, Alex has to take care of me, so it’s not my problem! Maybe I’d have more compassion if he wasn’t “married” to another woman while married to me.
I can’t stop thinking how selfish people can be in relationships. Has Alex considered what he requested me to do? He wants me to uproot, move away from my Islamic family, my biological family, my familiar surroundings, my comfortable home and everything I know…for what? He wants me to move to a strange State, where I know no one and know nothing of the area. Of course Carolinah and I would have separate dwellings. It is a way of life for wives in polygamy in Islam. He’ll continue to divide his time between us-that is marriage on a schedule. Please tell me what I am supposed to do while Alex is laid up in with Carolinah watching television, laughing, happy, and enjoying the good life? I get extremely angry when I think about it.
Now I understand how couples can stay married and live in separate countries. I hear of couples all the time in which one, for example, live in Egypt and the other the USA. I never could understand the concept, but now it all makes perfectly good sense to me. As we get older, sometimes relationships begin to take on a whole new dimension.
My intention is to stay in the State in which I currently live, where I’ve lived my entire life, near my Islamic family, my biological family, my familiar surroundings, and everything I’ve come to know. I’ll stay married to Alex and he can come visit me whenever he’d like.
Some readers have asked me about my happiness in my marriage. Living some place that I enjoy make me, Ana, happy. Being around my familiar surroundings and people that I know makes me happy. My intention is to stay right where I am.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
3/3/10
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As Salaamu Alaikum!
Welcome to Polygamy 411! Our home is for Muslims and non-Muslims. It is for everyone who wants to talk about polygamy, or anyone who is in a polygamous marriage or is considering entering one. We like having company. Make yourself comfortable and join the discussion by leaving a comment. We look forward to seeing you here again soon and often.
travel 4 less!
March 3rd, 2010 on 6:11 PM
Ana, you answered Alex’s question for us, when you wrote “My intention is to stay in the State in which I currently live,”
So when Alex says to you “where do you want to live” why not just say “right where I live now” and then drop your end of the conversation?
Alex went on to say “Then there’s no need to discuss it any further because I don’t want us to argue” making that direction appear to be his decision. But was lending this direction not within your own power with one simple civil response?
March 3rd, 2010 on 6:19 PM
If it’s that expensive then perhaps he should move Carolinah and visit her on occasion instead of the other way around? What makes her so special that he should move with her to another state?
Honestly…does he love you? By even asking that of you it really does not seem like it. I’d be angry to and I would not move either. Selfish of him indeed!
Maybe you should give him the blessing and then insist that he sticks to the schedule and flies home every 3 days.
March 3rd, 2010 on 8:28 PM
Judith, when Alex and I had the conversation again when we were on vac., I couldn’t give him a simple answer that I was going to stay where I was, as I didn’t definitely know at the time. My decision was still contingent on whether he intended to take Carolinah. I told him how I felt before and that I wasn’t going to move anywhere with him and her. For him to bring it up again, I thought perhaps the variables had changed. I would have given a move serious consideration had Alex said only he and I would be moving.
When I returned home from vac. and gave the matter more thought, I began to accept that Alex seriously intends to move both Carolinah and me, if he moves. So accepting that fact, I’ve determined I will stay where I am. Even if Alex were to come to me and say only he and I would be moving, I’d still say , I’m staying here. Now I don’t have to hear about it again, other than to hear what he’s decided for himself.
Regarding the decision to move or not, Alex and I are just going through the motions (choice-the illusion). I really don’t care to try to figure out the future. In this case, Alex posed the question to me – where do you want to live? God has already determined where we’re all going to live. We just don’t know what He’s decided until it happens.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 3rd, 2010 on 8:30 PM
LLL:
I don’t know what it is about your post that made me start laughing, but I did, and thought “man, I would’ve kicked that guy to the curb a long time ago.” And I’ll tell ya, no amount of tropical view would have made this bs worth it…
March 3rd, 2010 on 8:33 PM
Live, Laugh, Love, I understand what you’re saying. My thoughts about it are I can only control what’s happening with me. If Alex wants to leave the State and Carolinah is willing to go with him, then who am I to stop them. I was invited to go, and have an option of where we’d go. I would be very happy to continue to live where I am, and have Alex visit anytime he’d like.
I won’t force him to abide by a schedule
, but I will require him to continue to financially support me here where I currently live, regardless of how expensive it is. Anyway the ball is in Alex’s hands and he must figure out what he’s going to do.
I would have to say Alex loves me, otherwise he wouldn’t be badgering me to move with him, nor would he give me an option of where I want to go. He and Carolinah could simply move. He could pack up and move with Carolinah now. He has nothing holding him to me.
I must reiterate; Alex is extremely selfish as he has not considered what living that way (polygamous) in a strange State would do to Carolinah or me. He only sees his needs being taken care of and sees financial savings.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 3rd, 2010 on 8:45 PM
No Judith, you made me laugh, a good hearty laugh. You’re always so serious so your comment totally caught me off guard. Thanks for the good laugh!!!
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 3rd, 2010 on 11:53 PM
Really, that seemed to be extremely poor timing but imo, he was trying to get you into a good mood to sway you into something that you are against.
The finances was my point in forcing him to stick to the schedule and fly home every third day. He’s only thinking of moving to save on the finances. Flying home back and forth every 3 days does not seem like much of a savings. I think it would be more expensive in the long run and not worth it.
Not to mention…the added stress in many areas. Did he even really think any of this through? Obviously not. Sacrificing your marriage to save a few dollars….wow. I’m so sorry.
March 4th, 2010 on 1:14 AM
Live, Laugh, Love, you asked, “Did he even really think any of this through?” Good question. Alex is the type of man that does not think things through, which is evident by all that has taken place thus far in our polygamous lives. He admitted to me after he “married” Carolinah that he didn’t think it through. I can honestly say that it just didn’t begin when we became polygamous.
I don’t think Alex intended to talk about Carolinah when he asked me where I’d like to relocate. I think he just thought I’d rattle off a few names of States where I would like to live and that would be it. When he returned home, he probably would have begun investigating some locations. I don’t know why he’d think I’d do that-rattle off some names, as he knows I love living right where I am and don’t want to leave, plus I’ve previously advised him of my feelings about the matter. I guess his mindset is on going and he’s blocking out what I’ve said.
I may be guilty of influencing the timing. Before we left for vacation, I think I may have mentioned to Alex that our vacation would be a good time to discuss any issues we have while we’re in a calm, relaxed environment. So I’m really at fault for that one.
We don’t know Carolinah’s thoughts and feelings about this whole matter either. She has children, although they’re adults; at least one is. The other is just a year or so from being considered an adult. Perhaps she may want to move and have Alex all to herself, if she knows I’m adamant about not going. Regardless, it doesn’t phase me whether they go and I stay here. I’ll be content with it. My gut feeling is Alex is going no place. He’s going to end up right here with both Carolinah and me. That’s just my gut. Time will tell. I don’t know whether I’ll be alive in the next few minutes.
Alex is meticulous when it comes to fiances, which is why he is able to afford both Carolinah and me. He stays on top of finances
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 4th, 2010 on 5:12 AM
As salaamu alaykum and hello to you all.
If, as you say, you wish to improve your relationship with Alex and your joint relationship with Allah, then your answer did not indicate it. Unless you accept your reality and live with it, you will remain in downward spiraling communications.
You are always the antagonist, Ana. Any man who faces such insulting answers and attitudes from his wife will eventually give up communicating completely. Do you really, deep down, think that Allah is pleased with your responses?
There are two answers that I would give to Alex’s question, based on me wishing to stay in the marriage.
1. I want to live where you do, because I’m your wife and I accept your decision and support you in it.
2. I want to live in an Islamic country, where we can be in an environment that supports our growth in Islam.
Either response would have opened up the conversation in a positive way and opened Alex’s mind to your input when it was discussed further.
What you essentially are saying in this post and in your conversations with Alex, is that you are the one you are obeying. You are the one who “calls the shots.” You are the one who is telling him what he can and cannot do when you say you aren’t moving and he can come visit you. You are always trying to get rid of Carolina, rather than simply live your life with Alex for the pleasure of your Lord. In fact, you have totally ignored the roles that you and Alex have as husband and wife in Islam. Not only that, you have repeatedly insulted Alex’s role as your husband and disrespected him.
Is Alex selfish because he consults you about where you might like to go? Your constant efforts to manipulate him and get him to leave Carolina are selfish, too. Even when you talked about drawing closer to Islam with Alex, you still pushed the idea of him getting rid of Carolina.
Ana, you are drawing further away from Allah with your continued actions. Ever since the relapse, shaytaan has strongly influenced your mindset. Alex is the man. Alex, your husband by your choice, is essentially your Jennah or your Jehennem (Heaven or Hell).
He has to provide for those in his care, as per his means. I am quite sure your standard of living will be maintained, as he is quite fastidious about your pleasant lifestyle. Those material issues are really not being compromised.
I’m almost positive this response is going to be received as harsh words. I don’t know how else to put it though. Every now and then I have to say something that may not be received well. However, it is always meant to be positive and constructive. May Allah guide you, Alex, and Carolina to what pleases Him – ameen.
March 4th, 2010 on 2:04 PM
Wa Alaikum As Salaam Mai, as always I respect and value what you say and I’m glad you’ve commented.
You insist that I’ve tried to do nothing but have Alex get rid of Carolinah, which is not the case. From the onset I have been trying to accept polygamy as best I can and I have never asked Alex to divorce her even when he came to me and said he would, if that was what I wanted. The subject came up another time, recently, which I wrote about. Alex said he would divorce her, if she didn’t come around to accepting Islam, but now he has reneged. Accepting polygamy doesn’t mean I have to accept Carolinah, especially as there is no indication whatsoever that the woman is even a Muslim. Accepting polygamy only means I have to accept that Allah has given a Muslim man the option to have more than one wife, which Alex has chosen to do.
I can’t live my life for Alex. I have to take my Imam (Faith for those that don’t know), my mental and physical health and wellbeing into consideration, as well. I’ve been through hell on earth and back, dealing with all that has happened in the last three years with Alex and Carolinah. We’re talking about me dealing with a man and a woman, Alex and Carolinah, who have accepted near nothing of Islam, but have embraced polygamy whole heartedly. My next post was going to be about the move and how Alex’s request for me to move had nothing to do with Islam. Islam was never considered. But now since you’ve brought it up Mai, I may as well discuss it now.
Not once did Alex say Ana, pick a State to live in, a town where there is a Muslim community, a place where there is Halal food for us to eat or anything of that nature. His main concern was with me finding a place less expensive to live, so he can afford two families on a salary that was meant for one. In the USA that would mean some place in the southern part of the country or out west where there are very few Muslims, probably Halal food would be difficult to find, if available at all. I’d have to travel a distance to get to any place I need to go like stores, etc., which includes pumping my own gas… Alex would only be with me half the time and I would be out there in a strange environment virtually fending for myself.
Alex doesn’t want to move to a Muslim Country and neither do I for that matter. I think it’s admirable and beautiful for those who can do it and want to do it. I went to Saudi Arabia for Hajj and it was enough for me to know that living in a foreign country like that would be extremely difficult for me. I don’t know how I’d adjust to the culture and not being able to speak the language. It takes a certain personality and disposition to adjust to living in one of those countries after living ones entire life in the USA. Why would Alex who has very little interest in Islam (although he begs to differ with me) want to live in a Muslim Country?
I have to do what is best for ME. Alex apparently has been doing everything that is best for him. Alex is living polygamy. I have said he can move and take Carolinah with him. I simply said I will remain here where I am, for the various reasons that I cited in the post. Alex, if he wants to remain married to me, can come and visit whenever he’d like. Wherever he moves in the USA won’t be too far from where I am. I don’t think I’m asking a lot.
Mai, you say I am drawing further away from Allah by my continued actions. If I leave this State and go off with Alex, I will have lost any imam that I have. Alex is no guide for me and no help for my imam. He never mentions Islam still till this very day unless I do, except on a rare occasion. He goes through the motions when he thinks I’m annoyed with him for his lack of interest in Islam.
I am a firm believer that marriage does not include worshipping a husband. Allah says a wife is to obey her husband. Allah also says not to take heed to anyone that neglects the remembrance of Allah, as that person will lead you astray.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 4th, 2010 on 3:10 PM
As salaamu alaykum Ana.
Yet again, it all boils down to the reality that you stay with him when there is no Islamic basis to do so. I come with my comments based on you saying that you are staying with Alex, working on your relationship, and looking for the good. However, when you write these things and lay it out so clearly, you cannot practice Islam well or even correctly while married to Alex.
I know that material and physical comforts are hard to walk away from, but are they worth losing the ultimate goal for? If you are not to take heed of the man who is your husband, and the situation persists, then you take sin upon yourself by staying with him. Oh, Ana. Please be careful and do not ignore Allah’s signs in this regard. You seem quite clear about what is wrong and missing. Islam is, I fear, always going to be that decorative pot in the corner of your living room for Alex.
March 4th, 2010 on 3:58 PM
I wonder which one is the most selfish
So it’s money you want not a husband it seems.
You say he will have to support you after a divorce,not really, in Islam he has to provide for you during your iddah period and during the time you would be breastfeeding, that’s all.It seems that yourself, you pick and choose what pleases you in Islam, diregarding the rest.
March 4th, 2010 on 5:16 PM
Mai,
You and I must be drinking too much coffee. I’ve read your posts for quite awhile, and I have some sense how you think about things. Something tells me that your recent post has quite a bit to do with stuff that may be going on in your own life. I won’t take up space explaining why I think this, it is just an impression, and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong. I always enjoy your posts, even this one.
March 4th, 2010 on 6:06 PM
Safa,
Contracts are acceptable in Islam. If you read the story in the Quran of David and the ewes, it will refresh your memory. David was asked to arbitrate for two men. One of the men had only one ewe, but was asked by a man with 99 ewes to give his one ewe up, as part of the agreement in their contract. David initially ruled against the man with the 99 ewes and stood to be corrected, as he had erred. Although it didn’t seem fair and just, the man with the 99 ewes was correct in demanding the other man’s one ewe. Whatever you put in writing in a contract is to be abided by, whatever it is.
Alex and I have a legal binding Marriage License, which is a contract. We both knowingly and willfully obtained it, agreed to it and signed it. Nothing about it is contrary to Islam. I’d suggest you read surah 2 Iyat 241 in which Allah says, “For divorced women maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). This is a duty on the righteous.”
“A reasonable scale” – what is that? A reasonable scale is what is reasonable pertaining to the parties involved. Alex and I both agreed to what would be reasonable for him and me when we took it upon ourselves to obtain a legal Marriage License. So it is not contrary to Islam.
Finances and money are part and parcel of a marriage. It all begins with dowry. If you get the impression that my marriage is only about money then so be it. You’re entitled to think that.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 4th, 2010 on 7:13 PM
Mai, you said, “Yet again, it all boils down to the reality that you stay with him when there is no Islamic basis to do so.” Mai, it APPEARS I stay with Alex when there is no Islamic basis to do so. Alex and I apparently are not on the same paths. He says he is, but just doesn’t express it the way I do.
What I need to do is be patient and continue to wait for Allah SWT to let me know his decision regarding the matter. Allah SWT knows what is in my heart with regards me wanting to serve Him. I see changes taking place all the time in my marriage, changes for the good. Allah has been distancing me from Alex more and more. Our lives living polygamy has distanced Alex from me. He has many, many more business trips that he goes on, which causes me to see him even less. Perhaps the move to another State is another means of distancing me from Him more, as well. Allah does things in His own way and in His own time. He has already determined what is going to happen with me and Alex. I just don’t know what He has decided yet. Me with my limited knowledge and understanding am not going to try to figure out anymore what Allah does and why, regarding my marriage.
Many people want to argue about the amount of control they have in their lives, but my position is firm – I believe that not a leaf falls from the tree without Allah’s permission.
I appreciate all your da’wah Mai. I always contemplate all that you say.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 4th, 2010 on 9:31 PM
Ana, I feel for you I truly do! Let me just say you are fortunate to at least have your own dwelling. Imagine if you had to share the same home with Alex’s other wife………. That said, I am glad you are happy (mostly) in your situation as it is. Good for you that you told Alex exactly how you feel.
March 4th, 2010 on 9:57 PM
New#3, I didn’t like sharing a home with my siblings. So you could imagine what sharing a home with a rival vying for our husband’s time and attention would be like. I envision myself being in jail for assault or prison for murder. I think this polygamy thing may have been put upon me to help me deal with the issues I have with sharing.
I’m happy to hear from you New#3. When I saw there was a new comment, before I opened it, I’m like, ooooooh, here we go, but it was you saying something nice and kind. I needed a little breather before I get ready for my next round.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 5th, 2010 on 1:29 AM
Ana, I would encourage you to keep pondering Mai’s comments. She has been very direct, and I know that can be hard sometimes, but I think there is some wisdom in what she says. It’s not for me, as a Christian, to comment on how you live out your faith, but in principle I think I see where Mai is coming from.
Everyone has choices in how they live their life. If loving and serving God is the most important thing in your life, your choices should reflect that. If loving Alex and building a better marriage with him is important, your choices should reflect that too.
Mai said: ‘I come with my comments based on you saying that you are staying with Alex, working on your relationship, and looking for the good. However, when you write these things and lay it out so clearly, you cannot practice Islam well or even correctly while married to Alex.’
Again, I can’t argue from an Islamic perspective, but I agree with the principle here. Can you be true to your faith and stay married to Alex? If the answer is ‘no’, what are you still doing here? If the answer is ‘yes’, then honor both in the choices you make.
When someone questions your behavior towards Alex or Carolinah what you seem to be saying (if I can attempt to paraphrase) is something like this: I can’t be expected to honor them because they don’t honor Allah. So you seem to be in this no-mans land: technically still married to Alex and accepting of polygamy, but not really investing everything into making it work.
I think you’re fearful of leaving Alex because he takes good care of you in your day to day life — you don’t have to work full-time, he pays the bills, cooks, takes you on frequent holidays, etc, etc. I think you’re also fearful of investing too much into a marriage that may not have a future. So you do neither.
I really hope this doesn’t come across as insensitive regarding your beliefs, but it seems like you use the idea of God’s omnipotence as an excuse to avoid making difficult decisions and to avoid taking positive action.
Forgive me if I’m wrong, or if any of that sounds harsh. You know I care, which is why I take the time to share my honest thoughts.
March 5th, 2010 on 3:41 AM
Donald, you said, I’m “still married to Alex and accepting of polygamy, but not really investing everything into making it work.” You’re right. I’m not investing everything into making my marriage and polygamy work, as that is not what I was put on earth to do. I think that is what gets people in trouble the most, investing too much in the wrong thing. Alex has expressed to me that he’s happy with me and I see it. Of course he must be disappointed at my refusal to move to another State with him in the future. I’m happy with Alex, however, disappointed at times that he’s not as interested in Islam, as I would like him to be. There’s no compulsion in Islam, therefore, I’m making an effort to leave Alex alone about it.
It’s not my position to make polygamy work. Allah says it’s permissible for man to have more than one wife, which Alex has. Now he has to deal with it. He has to make polygamy work, not me. Divorce is permissible in Islam, as well. If Alex feels I’m a hindrance to making polygamy work, divorcing me is his option just as polygamy was (again choice-the illusion). I’m not going to run down Carolinah anymore or beg her to communicate with me. I’ve washed my hands of any dealing with her and I pray Allah protects me, regarding that. I’m not Alex’s slave and I’m not going to move to some strange place somewhere where I know no one, with a woman that won’t communicate with me and a husband I’ll see half the time just so he could save some money.
Donald you asked, “Can you be true to your faith and stay married to Alex? If the answer is ‘no’, what are you still doing here? If the answer is ‘yes’, then honor both in the choices you make.” I say the bottom line is I intend to wait patiently on Allah for His decision, as He is the best to decide. Allah says be patient. Why? – Because he has a plan. Alex can plot and plan his future all he wants. Man plots and plans, but Allah is the best of planners. When and if Allah wants me out of this marriage with Alex, it will happen – Alex will divorce me or I will divorce Alex or we’ll just separate, or one of us will die. Somehow or another it will happen. You may think as you said I’m using “God’s omnipotence as an excuse to avoid making difficult decisions and to avoid taking positive action” I say it’s no excuse it’s my belief that Allah decides.
I hope my response isn’t way harsh Donald. I thank you for your honest thoughts. I hope you accept mine, as well.
Yes, I have fear of change and the unknown, but who doesn’t. The grass always seems greener on the other side, but it usually is not.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 5th, 2010 on 9:27 AM
Salaam Ana
i was wondering as to why you are opening a marriage site?
i personally dont see the use of it, no matter how good your intentions are
its not going to stop a man from taking a second\third\fouth wife without his current wife’s consent or knowledge for that matter, i was just wondering why you would take a risk in being part of something like that?
wassallaam.
March 5th, 2010 on 1:15 PM
Judith
You made me laugh about the coffee! In this case, though, all I’ve been drinking is water, LOL! My response wasn’t an outward projection of internal turmoil. This doesn’t relate to anything in my personal life at present. Whew! What a blessing it is to be in a good, communicative marriage. However, it does relate to much I have learned through experience and, strongly, to mistakes I have witnessed from friends and acquaintances.
I have seen so many mistakes (and made them myself) when it comes to dealing with husbands with respect and consideration. This is a common problem for us women from the West, as we have the “control” and “independence” thing going on. However, if the man, in his role as husband, fulfills his duties as determined by Allah, then he is to be obeyed.
There is a very powerful narration from the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that says, “If I had commanded you to prostrate to any aside from Allah, it would be your husband.” THAT is why it is of utmost importance to choose the rightly guided man as a husband. Men have been given the overall burden of being the protectors and leaders over the women in their care. If a woman dies having lived her life fulfilling her duties as a Muslim (praying, fasting, etc.) and her husband is pleased with her, it is said she may enter Jennah by any gate she wishes. That’s a really good deal…but we just can’t keep our mouths shut when we don’t have something good to say.
Anyway, I have always maintained that Ana should have patience in this matter and follow Allah’s “developmental timeline” to wherever it is going. However, HOW one conducts oneself if of paramount importance. We are accountable for what we say and how we treat others, husbands included. IF Alex is simply “neutral,” neither encouraging Islam in the household nor preventing it from being practised, then he hasn’t forfeited his right as head of the household and due respect. If he is not respected and supported in his decisions (as long as they are not in defiance of Allah) then the wife is in the wrong. It’s deep.
March 5th, 2010 on 1:34 PM
Salaam Marcel. Welcome to polygamy 411 and thank you for commenting.
You said, “i was wondering as to why you are opening a marriage site?”
Answer: It was something that sparked my interest and I thought I’d give it a try. It has been in the making for about a year. It involves a lot more than I anticipated. It’s taking longer to complete than I would like. I have not devoted as much time to it as needed. I’ve been maintaining the blog at the same time, along with everyday life.
You said, “i personally dont see the use of it, no matter how good your intentions are”
Answer: I have no intentions other than to provide a service.
You said, “its not going to stop a man from taking a second\third\fouth wife without his current wife’s consent or knowledge for that matter, i was just wondering why you would take a risk in being part of something like that?”
Answer: I’m assuming you’re referring to the polygamy option. I’ve heard there have been complaints of married men going to regular marriage sites (that don’t offer polygamy), seeking wives. This site has polygamy options so it’s open and known that these men are polygamist. Some women don’t mind marrying married men. This site provides them that option. There’s an opportunity for persons to be honest here, although honesty can’t be guaranteed.
As for a man taking a subsequent wife and not telling his first wife, I have no control over that. It’s the same as if a man and woman meet and marry; I have no control if one of them commits adultery after they’re married. The marriage site is to help men and women find mates.
I will try my best to institute safe guards in the marriage site to protect people from scammers, as best I can, but people are going to have to become their own police as well, and make sure they investigate.
Thank you for the questions Marcel.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 5th, 2010 on 2:44 PM
Wa alaykum as salaam wa Rahmat Allah Ana.
We are told that we speak out if it will benefit. If it will not, or will be rejected and hence push the other person deeper into disobedience to Allah, then remain silent.
I fear you will not like or accept the answer to your question about obeying husbands, and so I’m going no further with it. If you truly want to know at what stage you should not obey your husband, you will be able to find out from reputable sources.
If you truly want your situation to be resolved and pleasing to Allah, you are welcome to send me your questions and we will present them at the Shaikh’s house (teacher of Usool and Fiqh at Islamic University of Madinah) when we go on Thursday, insha’Allah.
“Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves.” (13:11)
March 5th, 2010 on 2:07 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum Mai,
With all due respect, if I may interject, you said: “IF Alex is simply “neutral,” neither encouraging Islam in the household nor preventing it from being practised, then he hasn’t forfeited his right as head of the household and due respect.” I beg to differ. It’s impossible for Alex or any Muslim to be “neutral”. One is either striving to be a Believer or not. If not, he’s hindering men from the path of Allah. Allah says don’t follow the common run of people or they will lead you astray. It appears Alex is remaining “neutral”, but his striving is not for Allah, which makes everything about him contrary to Islam. His effect on me is not blatant, but subtle and does much damage. This leads me back to what Allah says that we should not heed those that neglect His remembrance and don’t obey Him (Allah).
The question is: When Allah in Quran tells women to obey their husbands is Allah referring to just any old husband, or Believing husbands?
I’m just throwing that all out there Mai. I’m not trying to be confrontational.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 5th, 2010 on 9:51 PM
Mai, I just want to let you know you inadvertently left out some of the Iyat: “Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). 13:11
Donald, I know I’ve confused you quite a bit, not meaning to. It’s quite understandable how non-Muslims would be confused by what I say on the blog, regarding the questions of choice and free will. I don’t want to get to far off track with the topic. I just needed to say that in Islam Muslims are supposed to submit their will to Allah, which means we surrender our will and no longer have a will. We accept Allahs decisions. The only free will we have is to worship Him or not.
Muslims are advised to exercise patience in whatever betides them. If a Muslim obeys and surrenders him/herself to Allah – in essense, change the condition of his/her heart (soul), Allah will change his/her condition and dispose of his/her affairs towards comfort and ease.
So if I sincerely make every effort to serve and worship Allah, Allah will guide me in my polgamous marriage and disposed of my affairs towards comfort and ease. It could happen in any number of ways, for example: one day I may wake up and find I have no love left in my heart for Alex and I divorce him, or vice versa… or Alex could sincerely desire to serve and worship Allah and begin to do so and we’ll have a beautiful marriage, just examples, as I don’t know what Allah will decide.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 5th, 2010 on 11:54 PM
Ana, I think I understand what you’re saying. Essentially, you have reservations as to whether Alex is, or will become, the man he convinced you he was when you two married. Until you know one way or the other, you will continue to wait and see.
You know what is best for you, Ana. What seems obvious to others, on the outside, is not necessarily what seems obvious to you. Allow me to encourage you to follow your instincts. That way, whatever the outcome of your marriage and your life in general, you will not have regrets down the line. I say, listen to your heart (as you apparently have been doing) and things will work out. Best wishes!
March 6th, 2010 on 12:41 AM
Rebeckah, thank you much for simplifying it for me. Sometimes I just confuse people more trying to get them to understand.
I do have reservations about whether Alex will become that man. I’m sure there are persons out there that say it’s crystal clear, clear as day, but it’s not clear for me. I love Alex and it’s not easy to walk away from love, especially when a person treats you very good. And again, of course he’s not perfect. I just don’t feel it in me to leave. My instincts don’t tell me to leave and my instincts usually don’t lead me wrong. When and if I must leave, I’ll know it without a doubt and it will be done with ease.
Thanks for understanding, Rebeckah
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 6th, 2010 on 3:53 AM
Uff, are you lucky! You only have to choose between one state and the other. My wives have to choose between one country and the other. We moved around ten countries in 3 continents, so far. And the next move is getting more difficult…
March 6th, 2010 on 4:29 AM
ana, i do not think this is something that you should try just because it ” sparked your interest”. What you have to understand is that your polygamy situation is easier than most women’s. You have contracts to fall back on.You never spent your entire youth on Alex and you never bore him children. Those being the things that my mother did for my father, and now that she got a little older and he became a little more “appealing” decided to make use of his “rights”.
what irks me the most is that no matter what his other wife has done she still tries to convince people and my mother of what a changed person she is, you only get one chance with people, once you do something that is morally questionable you lose that persons respect. And no matter how good he is or how good he tries to be everytime someone asks me where’s your dad and i have to reply ”he’s with his other wife”, i start hating him all over, for the hurt he caused my mother for the ungratefulness he’s shown and his ability to no matter what happens in my mothers household, to be able to just get up and go when its the other wife’s turn.
when he dies, regardless of the 20 years my mother spent serving him, she gets the same as the other wife, a woman who can easily just get a job and maybe even still be young enough to find another husband, and that is why every ounce of respect and loyalty i have for my father is completely non existent.
You said:As for a man taking a subsequent wife and not telling his first wife, I have no control over that.
In life there are two things, choice and Takdeer. Takdeer is something that no matter what, if something is bound to happen it will. What you are doing is choice, what a man does concerning his marriage is choice and, at the end of the day we will all take responsibility for our actions, and the reactions that our actions have caused and that which they inspired.
So i sincerely hope that if this marriage site causes that a woman’s opinion of her husband is lowered because of his polygamy or that a family is damaged because of it, that all involved parties will be able to look at this as something that may strengthen their Imaan, if not then they will probably overdose on some drug or other. And maybe even one marriage that will materialize through this site will produce children that will one day inspire a change for the better in the world Inshaa-Allah
salaam
March 6th, 2010 on 6:31 AM
Wow Haji, that’s a lot of moving. One really nice thing about it is your wives got to see and experience a nice chunk of the world. Your wives must be quite the cosmopolitans. Aren’t they most fortunate? I can imagine after a while moving becomes a bit taxing on the mind and body. I think you’re right, my moving delimma is a lot less complicated than yours. Insha Allah, Allah will make it easy for you and them
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 6th, 2010 on 7:01 AM
As Salaamu Alaikum Marcel, there hasn’t been many, if any children of polygamous parents that have come forward and shared here at polygamy 411 how living a life consisting of polygamy has impacted their lives. I thank you for sharing with us. You helped me see polygamy from a different perspective, that of a child and not a wife. I know it must not have been easy for you to write about it. I could feel your emotions in your words. I’ve been learning that children of polygamous households suffer intensely. What you said was very touching and I empathize with your mom. Your mom has a very special daughter, you, who is there for her and supportive. There must be many blessings in it for you.
Thank you for your thoughts about the marriage site. I’m going to ponder what you have said and take it all into consideration in putting together the site. I pray Allah will bless you and your family, Marcel. Please stay with us; visit and comment often
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 6th, 2010 on 9:54 AM
Ana said: ‘Donald, I know I’ve confused you quite a bit, not meaning to. It’s quite understandable how non-Muslims would be confused by what I say on the blog, regarding the questions of choice and free will. I don’t want to get to far off track with the topic. I just needed to say that in Islam Muslims are supposed to submit their will to Allah, which means we surrender our will and no longer have a will. We accept Allahs decisions.’
I understand submission. Christian’s believe in submitting to God’s will too. But Ana, I still want to challenge you to consider whether that is what you’re really doing. You say you ‘intend to wait patiently on Allah for His decision, as He is the best to decide’. But in response to Alex’s desire to move, you make it very clear that you are digging your heels in and staying put, because living here is what makes you happy. That doesn’t sound like submission to me. It sounds like you are making a personal choice to live the way you want. You later say, ‘God has already determined where we’re all going to live. We just don’t know what He’s decided until it happens.’ But if I can be blunt, that’s twisting the concept of fate to justify what you’re actually seeking to control yourself. You, Ana, have decided that you’re going to stay. You said, ‘I’ve determined I will stay where I am. Even if Alex were to come to me and say only he and I would be moving, I’d still say, I’m staying here. Now I don’t have to hear about it again, other than to hear what he’s decided for himself.’ This is going to sound harsh again, but I think you may be fooling yourself regarding submission.
Perhaps I am wrong. Only God knows your heart. Perhaps you have good reason to believe he wants you to stay where you are. Or perhaps you are still seeking to know his will on this. That hasn’t come across in your writing though.
You and Mai have also discussed the roles of husband and wife. In relation to moving, you’ve basically said to Alex, ‘It’s my way or the highway’. If submission to a husband’s leadership is part of Islam, that doesn’t sound very submissive. But even putting this whole idea of submission aside, the success of any marriage depends on respectful communication between husband and wife. I personally think it’s okay that you have a strong opinion about where you want to live, but when any married couple disagrees on something as important as this, they need to be able to discuss it respectfully and come to some kind of agreement. Why? Because marriage is supposed to be a relationship based on unity, teamwork, growing closer to each other over time. At least that’s my view of marriage.
You do have choices. I don’t think I’m alone in this as a non-Mulsim. Mai said, ‘Alex, your husband by your choice‘, and Marcel said, ‘In life there are two things, choice and Takdeer. Takdeer is something that no matter what, if something is bound to happen it will. What you are doing is choice, what a man does concerning his marriage is choice and, at the end of the day we will all take responsibility for our actions, and the reactions that our actions have caused and that which they inspired.’
In my life, the question is not whether I have choices, but whether the choices I make are in line with what I know of God’s will.
I’m happy to leave this topic alone if you think it best. I’m not sure whether it’s helpful or just hurtful. Again, I think Mai showed wisdom when she said, ‘We are told that we speak out if it will benefit. If it will not, or will be rejected and hence push the other person deeper into disobedience to Allah, then remain silent.’
March 6th, 2010 on 12:11 PM
Anna, I just want to say be carefull with every things you make. Each of it will take responsibility, everything is count corretly.
This is not just about comment and visit, this is serious …
March 6th, 2010 on 1:44 PM
Donald,
God, Allah…all names for One Creator. We are on the same page. Bless you for your efforts.
Ana,
Sad, disappointed, sick at heart from your words… but my love for you remains and so will my dua’ (supplications/prayers).
Audhu b’Illahi min as shaytaan ir rajeem.
March 6th, 2010 on 1:23 PM
Hi Donald, thank you for elaborating. It’s definitive that my position won’t change and I’m sure yours won’t either.
Mai, you said, “If you truly want your situation to be resolved and pleasing to Allah, you are welcome to send me your questions and we will present them at the Shaikh’s house (teacher of Usool and Fiqh at Islamic University of Madinah) when we go on Thursday, insha’Allah.”
I say thanks for the offer, but I’ll pass. What has happened is Satan has infiltrated the religion of Islam with all kinds of books (including Hadiths) scholar, Islamic universities, sheiks and the like. Allah say in Quran he has made the Quran easy to understand and remember. Yet man wants to complicate it and say that Allah and His Messenger didn’t do a good enough job in presenting Allah’s words so people can understand. It’s very sad. To tell women that their husband has to be pleased with them in order for them (the wives) to enter Paradise is just a way for men to exercise undue influence over women to manipulate, control them and make women slaves to men. Allah NOWHERE in Quran says a husband has to be pleased with his wife for her to enter Paradise. It’s nonsense. Allah says we were put on this earth to worship Him and Him alone and that’s the way we enter Paradise! It’s simple.
Stranger,
Yes. I will be careful. Thank you!
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 6th, 2010 on 1:43 PM
Lol Ana, im a boy
March 6th, 2010 on 1:59 PM
LOL… Marcel, I’m sorry for the gender error.
My bad.
While I was writing, I went back and forth there for a moment, as to whether you were male or female. The name “Marcel” didn’t register at the time. I’m glad you took it so well and you didn’t take offense. Thank you for correcting me and for the good laugh
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 7th, 2010 on 9:11 PM
Asalaam Alaykum, Being patient is a better quality then to ditch and run! Yes Allah gives us the right to divorce, but prefers it if we dont. Stating there is something in the person you married even if you dont like them that is good and that one thing is better then to divorce them and Allah will bless you for all your patience. I also want to stress that Allah dose not like the person who would say divorce him or her with out first expressing and helping both people in the matter till that is the only option where they are both in agreement. A person who will say this is not of good means and only looking for again the separation and that only pleases shataan. Anna is doing the best in relying on Allah to make for her the right path and if it goes towards a divorce then this is as eh wills it and no one can change what Allah wills, InshaAllah okhti your doing well
March 7th, 2010 on 10:02 PM
Wa Alaikum As Salaam my dear sister Khadijah. I see you speak with light from Allah. You said, “A person who will say this is not of good means and only looking for again the separation and that only pleases shataan. Anna is doing the best in relying on Allah to make for her the right path and if it goes towards a divorce then this is as eh wills it and no one can change what Allah wills” I say that is the key, relying on Allah and not ourselves – Alhumduillah.
One needs only to look at the stories of some of the Prophets to see that we have to be patient and wait on Allah, rely on Allah for His decision. When Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) was in prison, he didn’t try to break out of there like some mad person, freaking out, pleading his innocence. He asked a man that was release to speak on his behalf once he got out, but it didn’t happen. What did Joseph do? He waited patiently in prison for Allah to decide his fate. The story of Prophet Iyub (Job) is another. Prophet Iyub was patient, during his trials and sickness. He waited on Allah to decide His fate and cure him. His wife was impatient trying to find him cures and for that, once Job was cured by Allah, she had to receive a slight punishment from Iyub. Look what happened to Prophet Jonah. He didn’t like his mission and got the heck on out of there, but what happened? He got swallowed up by the whale, and was sent back. We can’t escape our fate and we don’t determine it.
If everybody had all these choices they allege they have, would they be in all the predicaments that they are in? People are in situations they don’t like daily. If they decide their fate why don’t they just change it like a magician or some type of magical genie?
Thank you Khadijah for your enlightenment.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 8th, 2010 on 12:09 PM
Khadijah Z, this is about your comment:
“Allah dose not like the person who would say divorce him or her with out first expressing and helping both”
Khadijah, there have been a few antagonistic posts on this blog, but I don’t recall anyone recently recommending divorce, without, as you said “first expressing and helping”
You also said:
“A person who will say this is not of good means and only looking for again the separation and that only pleases shataan.”
Khadijah, that is a statement which sweeps many individuals into one very bad category. I have read the postings of some people on this blog for a long time, and I know that the people who have posted recently have respect for Ana, and enough respect for themselves to take her situation seriously. They are not seeking to please Satan, and are not doing so either.
March 21st, 2010 on 2:19 PM
Slms Ana
Unfortunately there are too many judges, juries and executioners all waiting eagerly to give their verdict on your marriage.
Ana You are an intelligent, islamically educated and spiritually advanced muslim woman who knows exactly how you feel deep within your soul concerning ALLAH SWT and I must congratulate u for choosing patience, faith and hope in ALLAH SWT instead of walking away.
Its disrespectful that commentators keep asking you “WHY are YOU STILL in this marriage”, even though u have repeatedly stated that you are still in this marriage because you and Alex luv one another and that Alex has expressed to you that he’s happy with you and you are happy with Alex, he has been gud to u,however, you feel disappointed at times that he’s not as interested in Islam, as you would have liked him to be. There’s no compulsion in Islam, therefore, you are making an effort to leave Alex alone about it.
I dont understand WHY they still persist in trying to make you doubt yourself and alex’s luv for u. I wish people would realize that YOU are not going to answer for Alex’s NOT fulfilling his islamic duties. You are only responsible for your own committments to your religion.
Donald
As a friend of ana will u please respect the following words of ana “I say the bottom line is I intend to wait patiently on Allah for His decision, as He is the best to decide. Allah says be patient. Why? – Because he has a plan. Alex can plot and plan his future all he wants. Man plots and plans, but Allah is the best of planners. When and if Allah wants me out of this marriage with Alex, it will happen
So if I sincerely make every effort to serve and worship Allah, Allah will guide me in my polgamous marriage and disposed of my affairs towards comfort and ease. It could happen in any number of ways, for example: one day I may wake up and find I have no love left in my heart for Alex and I divorce him, or vice versa… or Alex could sincerely desire to serve and worship Allah and begin to do so and we’ll have a beautiful marriage, just examples, as I don’t know what Allah will decide.”
Honestly people find me a single married couple in this world who do not have marital problems. Marriage is a roller coaster life even in monogamous marriages. There are plenty born muslim brothers who have not read even a single namaaz in their lives and have not opened a single page of the Quran either.
The only reason people are making a big thing is because ana is vocalising every detail of her life so that others can find comfort in the fact that they are not alone with such problems. They are able to identify with the problems ana is going thru and that somehow helps them cope better. So people plse back off once she tells you her intentions for its the intentions that we are judged on by ALLAH Swt.
I admire ana for her compassion and guidance she has shown to other polygamous sisters and has alwayz guided them to turn to ALLAH SWT and handle their trials and tests with patience. She has a once in a million soul and may ALLAH grant her success in all her earthly ventures and keep for her a STATION BEYOND HER WILDEST expectations IN HIS PRESENCE and may ALLAHs Favourable Glance be always on her protecting and guiding her forever Inshallah.
March 21st, 2010 on 11:13 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum First,
A big WOW is what I have to say. That was a powerful statement you made. Your comment could serve as the “About Us” for the blog. It seems you summed up the purpose of the whole blog in a few short paragraphs.
What you said was very supportive, kind and helpful to me. Your wisdom, knowledge of Islam and way of expressing your knowledge is a huge help to me and can be for others here who read your words, as well.
First, thank you for all your dawah and duahs. You along with most everyone here have helped me and others more than anyone could know. Maintaining ones sanity in polygamy is far from easy, but having wonderful people here helping us all every step of the way helps us make it through and keep our focus where it needs to be.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 21st, 2010 on 11:20 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum Mai,
Your gravatar is beautiful! I miss you
My duahs are with you and I hope yours are with me as well.
A big hug for you Mai!
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 22nd, 2010 on 1:05 AM
First said: ‘So people plse back off once she tells you her intentions…’
I think everyone backed off some time ago. This thread has been sitting idle for some time.
To both Khadijah and First:
I never told Ana to leave Alex. Nor did I tell her to stay. It’s not my place to make those decisions for her. If ever I’ve tried to challenge Ana, it’s been to encourage her to try and work out where she is going so she can focus her positive energy towards it — whether that be as a single woman fully devoted to God, or a married woman fully devoted to God (first) and her husband (second).
March 22nd, 2010 on 9:09 AM
Donald
sorry i did not mean to offend you with my words. That was not my intention.4give me if i gave u that impression. Generally In life we all have our up and down moments quite often more downs LOL I find as in my life. I find myself quite often fighting my inner demons(my thoughts)and trying hard to overcum them by turning to GOD for help and realising “I AM NOT MY THOUGHTS”. Turning to GOD always help us cope with WHAT IS and making peace with that moment for it is the best situation we can be in at that given moment. The more we rebel and refuse to accept WHAT IS the more infuriated and discontent we become. But once you have accepted the WHAT IS you immediately find INNER Peace and contentment and are set FREE from the inner turmoil u have been going thru a moment ago. Acceptance of WHAT IS is a powerful tool to set u free. Its only after u are free from your thoughts and rebellion do you realize how much u have to be grateful to GOD for.
I see it all happening in Ana’s case where she is controlled by her thoughts but Alhamdulillah she always wins in her fights with her thoughts by turning to ALLAH SWT for help. I admire her courage in her fight against her Nafs and from her words thereafter find her dedication and commitment to God and her religion is stronger than ever. May she always remain patient and persevering in all her Tests and Trials and overcum all her internal fights in life.
March 23rd, 2010 on 10:18 AM
It’s okay, you didn’t offend me. It just felt like you misunderstood me. I defend Ana’s choice to share her story, warts and all, just as you do, and I greatly respect the way she doesn’t sugar-coat it. By doing that she opens herself up to all sorts of criticism from people who don’t want polygamy or Islam projected in a bad light — but that’s not were I’m coming from.
First said: ‘The more we rebel and refuse to accept WHAT IS the more infuriated and discontent we become. But once you have accepted the WHAT IS you immediately find INNER Peace and contentment and are set FREE from the inner turmoil u have been going thru a moment ago.’
There is some truth in what you are saying. In life there will always be unpleasant realities. Some things are not within our power to change — we can try to deny their existence, fight a futile battle against them, tolerate them, or even learn to embrace them. But sometimes it IS within our power to change things for the better. If your house was on fire, would you not open the door and walk to safety? You wouldn’t say, ‘Oh well, God decreed that my house be burnt down while I was in it. Guess I just better sit here and accept my fate.’ There is a time for patient endurance, and there is a time for positive action. May God grant all of us the wisdom to know what time it is.
That reminds me of the famous ‘Serenity Prayer’. You’ve probably all heard it before:
God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things that I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Amen to that.
March 23rd, 2010 on 5:23 PM
Donald,
Amen also. You said it. Ditto. etc….As I look back, the things in my life that I am the most burdened by, are in the areas where I failed to take action. And I don’t mean drama. I am just referring to a general posture of individual response and responsibility. I take it now, and I put up with the loneliness that goes with it, because the alternative is worse.
March 23rd, 2010 on 6:12 PM
I think it is safe to say that what commentator “First” and many other Muslims on the blog have stated, including myself, about choice and actions is the postion that is taken by Muslims that are striving to be Believers. All decisions are Allah’s. Allah decides.
Many Christians believe as you Donald and Judith – that you have choices and you decide.
It’s all good if we could respect each other’s position, and try not to change it. So all readers, please be conscious of what is being expressed and by whom (Non-Muslim or Muslim) when you read and comment.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 23rd, 2010 on 9:12 PM
Ana, I’m not sure then where the boundary is between respectfully disagreeing and trying to change each other’s positions. I didn’t have a problem with First’s latest comment. It respectfully presented an opinion, to which I respectfully replied — agreeing in part, and challenging in part.
Ana, you yourself said, ‘I’ve determined I will stay where I am. Even if Alex were to come to me and say only he and I would be moving, I’d still say , I’m staying here. Now I don’t have to hear about it again, other than to hear what he’s decided for himself.’
So when I point out the obvious — that we would all choose to exit a burning house — why do you take offense?
I’m going to leave it there. I guess I still don’t really understand your position, but that’s okay. I’m your guest here, and overall you’ve been very gracious to allow me (and others) to share our beliefs so openly.
March 23rd, 2010 on 10:08 PM
Donald,
I am not offended by what you said. I’m just concerned that discussing the topic of “choice” and “free will” indepth could begin to present a problem on the blog simply because the two religions Christianity and Islam differ regarding it. You don’t grasp how I understand “choice” and “free will” because if you did you would be Muslim. I don’t grasp how you understand “choice” and “free will” because if I did I would be Christian.
It’s difficult for me to explain it to you so that you would understand because you’re not going to understand for the reasons I just pointed out. I said, “I’ve determined” I will remain where I am. Although I’ve made the choice, it is Allah’s decision, which was written for me before I was born. It appears I have made that decision. For me to exit that burning fire was Allah decision too. If I had stayed there, burned up and died, it would have been Allah’s decision too.
We could go back and forth forever with this. You won’t accept my way of thinking, nor will I accept yours. It’s OK. We’re not trying to convert anyone to any religion on this blog. We’re all here just to share, read, try to get along, talk and have fun when and if we can.
We could all still talk about free will and choice. It’s OK. It’s just important that we all realize that I don’t think anyone is truly going to accept the other’s way of thinking. As long as we keep that in mind, I think we’ll all be OK.
I’m enjoying communicating with everyone here. I’m learning a lot from everyone. Many of us have been here together for over a year now or close to it. You are not a guest. You are part of our family here. We are all blog friendly friends. I apologize if I’ve offended you Donald and anyone else as well, barring A FEW. You know what I’m talking about!!! LOL.
Thank you for being open and honest, Donald. Thank you for being here and sharing
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 23rd, 2010 on 10:50 PM
Thanks Ana. I could happily engage in a debate about submission and free will, but if our views are truly irreconcilable like you say, it would be like the illustration at the top of this page, except with two jigsaw pieces that don’t fit together.
You’re a sweetie for calling me family. Thanks for trying to be a peacemaker and for making us all (bar a few)
feel so welcome. May God grant you peace in your family and peace within your own soul, as you seek to know and follow His will for your life.
March 23rd, 2010 on 11:20 PM
I think we should contact Jane, and bring her back on the blog for some diversion.
March 23rd, 2010 on 11:28 PM
Donald you said, “May God grant you peace in your family and peace within your own soul, as you seek to know and follow His will for your life.” You said that beautifully. I admire you and those like you who have expressed themselves in such a soothing, comforting, calm and peaceful way that touches one’s very soul. It’s a beautiful gift that God has given you and some others who have been generously come forward and commented at polygamy 411.
May God grant you the same for you and your family, Donald
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 23rd, 2010 on 11:37 PM
Judith, I almost die laughing
when you say something funny; it’s so out of character for you. You’re always so serious. But you’re very funny the few times you’ve caught me off guard and said something comical.
A matter of fact, I thought about Jane too LOL
I needed a good laugh right about now. Thank you, Judith
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 24th, 2010 on 1:01 AM
Thank you Ana.
Judith has what I would call a dry sense of humor. More like UK or Australian humour (spelt with a ‘u’!) than US. Have you told us where you’re from Judith?
March 24th, 2010 on 1:27 AM
All I can say is if somebody brings Jane back, after what I’ve been through today, someone might as well just shoot me in the head
and take me out my misery. Some people know how to work your last nerve.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 24th, 2010 on 8:46 AM
Ana,
Now you made me laugh! Thank you. Yes, I think it was probably fortunate that this blog was in its infancy when Jane appeared.
Donald,
Indiana, USA. I earn my living in a museum during the week, and work a 31 acre farm on the weekends.
March 26th, 2010 on 11:21 AM
Donald
I can sense that you are a gud human being and find your comforting words to Ana very very inspiring. Quite often I too have taken your “words of wisdom” and applied them to my daily life and way of thinking. At times I was spellbound by your words which were such Eye Openers especially at times of distress we women tend not to think clearly. Thank you Donald for being here for everyone. Ana is right when she calls you Family. Take care and All the Best to you and your family.
March 27th, 2010 on 7:29 AM
Judith, sounds cushy. No wonder you’re the second ‘Top Commentator This Month’. Obviously too much spare time!
March 27th, 2010 on 7:34 AM
First, that’s one of the nicest comments I’ve ever received. Thank you.
I do a lot of thinking about things, and I enjoy talking with people, learning and sharing ‘words of wisdom’ as you say. I see so much foolish thinking spread about in various online forums (I’m not talking about people here), and I like to think I have some wisdom. People who speak with wisdom may be in the minority, but even rarer still are those who live their life wisely — and I, as yet, do not count myself among those people. There is a pretty large deficit between where I’m at and what I aspire to be. Thanks be to God, his grace fills that gap. All praise be to Him for whatever good is in me.
You should all know, that Ana has been a wonderful support to me in the time that I’ve known her online — and a far less critical one than I’ve been to her! Though she’s had every opportunity to rebuke me at times, she has preferred to offer words of hope and encouragement. (Not that there’s anything wrong with a loving rebuke. CM is quite gifted in that area when she sets her mind to it!)
Anyway, that’s something I can tell you all about Ana. She has a heart that wants to encourage and support others. You might see another side to her if you flaunt your perfect polygamous marriage in front of her, or text her husband naked photos or marry him or something… but avoid those things and you’ll do okay.
First, thanks again for your encouraging words. May God bless you richly too.
March 27th, 2010 on 1:19 PM
Yes, our Judith is living the nice “cushy” life. I always took her to be a learned person, but didn’t know she has the down to earth, nature thing going on too. I think I’d be able to remember God much while being on 32 acres of God’s green earth. It’s exhilarating for me just imagining it.
Donald, you gave an accurate accessment of the down side of me. I have a tendency to go for the juglar vein, if someone rubs me the wrong way.
As a few commentators noted, I don’t take criticism well. Although they may not have known it until now, I listened to them and I’m working on it. I’ve asked God to help me with it and change my disposition regarding it. Everyone helps each others in ways they never imagined sometimes. To those few I referred to, I thank you.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 27th, 2010 on 3:58 PM
To those few who criticized me and I unmercifully attacked back, I apologize
.
It was very remiss of me not to apologize to those select few in the previous comment that I just made. I won’t always agree, but nonetheless I should use more tact when disagreeing like that I ask others to use when commenting.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 28th, 2010 on 4:48 AM
Alhamdulillah (All Praise to ALLAH. Do u know God says when ANY of HIS CREATION talks about HIM on earth then HE TOO talks about that CREATION in Heaven and guess what we ALL have been mentioning HIM so often on this blog and that creates such a beautiful feeling of awe knowing that our Creator is ALSO discussing US.
Are we not fortunate guys to having discovered this blog where GOD is Discussed and gratitude is expressed to HIM at every turn?
Thank you Ana for providing us this space to Praise and continuously Thank ALLAH SWT. May HE Bless, keep us happy and LUV US ALL INSHALLAH. Ameen.
March 28th, 2010 on 5:57 AM
As Salaamu Alaikum First,
You are so right – Remembrance of Allah is the greatest thing without a doubt. He remembers us when we remember Him. Thank you for the BEAUTIFUL REMINDER, First! I pray Allah blesses you much for the reminder. I needed to hear what you said!
This blog couldn’t exist without all the wonderful people that Allah brought together here. I thank Him for bringing us all together too and letting us remember Him. May Allah continue to bless us all and keep us all happy
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 29th, 2010 on 9:22 AM
Mai,
If you are reading, we need you back in the fold. Because of your orthodox understanding of things, you have a unique contribution to make. God unites all of us, that is what matters.
April 17th, 2010 on 12:47 PM
I’ve re-copied the below response from “You Can Have Joy in Polygamy”, as this is where the dialogue about moving began:
Alex has agreed to remain here with me and not move to another state. We will be moving very soon, Insha Allah, to a larger, nicer home, nearby in this same area that we currently live. I will assist with the purchase and expenses so not to burden him, as he was kind enough to consider my feelings and needs reference moving. We’ve been communicating much better. I’ve begun to include him in my life and we’re more like a married couple should be opposed to being separate entities. I’m beginning to learn how to share and let him in.
.
I thank Allah much.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
April 18th, 2010 on 3:02 PM
Anna,
Before I began the comment that will likely upset you and get me kicked out of this open forum; I should introduce myself. I am a 50 Year Old White American Male, I am not Muslim (though I have studied the Koran), I am not a Member of the Church of Later Day Saints (though I have studied the book of Mormon), I am not Christian (though I was raised in that faith), I am not Polygamist (not yet). I am a Married Man (18 years) who Loves two women, I Love and respect my Wife, My Love for the woman I would have as a Co-Wife does not diminish the Love I have for the woman who has been my partner for 18years. I use Co Wife because “2nd Wife” to me implies 2nd place, Sister Wife might be a better term for what I hope for, but that relationship will have to be formed between the Wives and cannot be decreed by a Husband.
I only know Alex, Yourself and Carolinah from your writings and can only comment on the information which you have provided. You and Alex were married for years before he married Carolinah. Alex has abided by the requirements of your faith and attempts as best he can to provide equally financially and emotionally for you and Carolinah. Alex has done his best, Have You? Is it you place to judge and criticize a Woman who Loves your Husband (likely for same reason you do). Carolinah has done you No Wrong. Can you say,honestly,that you have wronged her? The shock and hurt of Alex’s Marriage to Carolinah; I understand. You are no longer shocked but you are still hurt and angry. Isn’t it time (past time) to be the Wife, partner and helpmate your Husband needs?
Would it be wrong to reach out in friendship to Carolinah? If not for her or for Your Husband, then for yourself? You have said Carolinah has not accepted Islam, have you lived you life as a positive example for her?
From your writing Anna I believe you are a good person, you try to be a good Muslim. But you have not put the hurt behind you and tried to be the Wife the Man you Love needs.
Have you ever considered offering Alex the possibility of keeping One Household rather than trying to maintain two separate families?
April 18th, 2010 on 6:04 PM
Hi Kelley, welcome to polygamy 411. It’s nice to have you here. I thank you for joining us, and especially for commenting.
You asked if I think I have done my best, regarding Alex and Carolinah. I must say yes. I think I have done my very, very best. I think I have come a long way in accepting a situation, which I’m accepting as polygamy without any proof that it is. I have no indication that a marriage ever took place. Alex says that Carolinah took Shahadah, the vows to be a Muslim. I have seen no indication that she is Muslim. She has admitted and bragged to me that she fornicated with my husband before she and he married. She’s sent naked photos to his phone with text saying Alex is her best fan, which indicates she has involvement of a sexual nature with others. The few times I communicated with her, she has never given any indication to me that she is Muslim and never said she was. When I give her the greeting that Allah tells us as Muslims to return to one another or give a better greeting, she refuses to do so. Alex said he showed her in Quran that Allah says we are to do that. She still refuses. She has never once initiated an attempt at peace. I am under no Islamic obligation to have anything to do with her. I have texted her some nasty messages and left unkind voice messages on her phone and for that I asked Allah to forgive me and I pray not to repeat that activity again.
With regard judging her, I can do that in Islam. Allah tells Muslims to judge with what He has given us to judge with the Quran. He tells us to investigate. He tells us who the Believers are, who the Unbelievers are, who Muslims are and who the hypocrite are etc, so we can deal with them all accordingly. I judge Carolinah on what she has said to me about fornicating with Alex, her naked pictures and text of her fan club etc. I judge her for refusing to do a simple, basic thing like say Salaam, or As Salaamu Alaikum.
Carolinah never wanted to communicate with me, which she made clear to Alex when they were planning to wed. She said she does not want to know that I exist and she has remained true to her word. I’ve tried to reach out to Carolinah in the past and I refuse to do so any longer. I am not going to BEG her to communicate with me and Alex already has said he can’t make her.
I must say it is Alex’s fault for practically all that has happened in this polygamous situation, as he brought a woman into our lives for what is apparent – to satisfy his own lustful needs, for sexual gratification. All her text and voice messages that I’ve read and heard are all about sex. His marriage to her had nothing to do with Islam.
I can’t be an example for Carolinah, as the Prophets (Noah, Adam, Moses, Jesus, Prophets Muhammad (PBUH) and the ones I missed, are our examples. But, she probably wouldn’t know that anyway. She apparently doesn’t know the importance of modesty and chastity of a Muslim woman in Islam either or she, especially as a Muslim woman, but who knows whether she is one, wouldn’t brag about her sexual rendezvous.
There is nothing that I can see or think of that I could do better for Alex and my marriage. I have done the best I can.
You asked about the possibility of Alex, Carolinah, and me living in one household. It would be impossible, as it is not acceptable in Islam. It was not the way of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). A Muslim man needs to be able to financially maintain more than one household, otherwise, he shouldn’t be in a polygamous marriage, unless the wife gives up her right to maintenance.
Kelley, I’d like to hear what you think I could do to be a better wife to Alex. He should be grateful I haven’t divorced his XXX LOL…and I can think of some very not so nice adjectives to put in front of that XXX
Thank you for introducing yourself, Kelley and for sharing with us your views on polygamy. I’m wishing the best for you, your wife and the lady you love. You seem to be a very kind and caring person. You’re always welcome at here at polygamy 411
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
April 18th, 2010 on 8:25 PM
This question is not only directed at Kelley, but is for anyone who chooses to answer. What should a FIRST wife do in a polygamous marriage to be a good wife, partner and helpmate to her husband? We hear all too often of the men who have gone out and have gotten themselves other wives despite their first wives’ objections or without the first wives’ knowledge – no mutual consultation. In doing so, these men have caused so many women heartbreak, agony and pain.
It’s disheartening to have people say to these wives, usually to the first wives, they need to do more; they need to be better wives; they need to be more helpful to their husbands. What more can the first wives do? It’s usually because of the first wife that the husbands are able to go out and get themselves other wives to begin with.
Many times these men don’t even carry their own financial weight in the homes. The only reason Carolinah is able to get any monies from Alex is because I don’t ask him to pay for all the things that he should pay in his and my home. I learned from growing up doing without as a child how important it is to have my own and I guess I’ve become accustomed to paying my own way. But no one looks at the sacrifices a first wife makes so that the husband can go off and satisfy his needs, usually not even in the cause of Islam, but his own cause.
The husbands bring other women into their marriages, many times unscrupulous women, screw everything up and expect the first wife to fix it. Alex goes out, tells me that he going to marry another woman and don’t care how I feel about it, marries her, see me almost having a near emotional breakdown and don’t rightly care and I’m supposed to chase down his woman that does not want any part of me and I’m supposed to make everything right. Is that how it’s supposed to go?
What should first wives do? Become slaves to their husbands and the husbands’ other so called “wives?” I really would like to know what others out there think 1st wives should do that they haven’t already done.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
April 18th, 2010 on 8:57 PM
It appears many of the marriages that Muslims engage in that they label “polygamy” are no different than the marriages of non-Muslims that are married and have affairs and cheat behind their wives backs. The only difference is with some Muslims the men do it in the wives faces and say it’s OK because it’s polygamy. The truth is it’s not polygamy and the men that call it that are slandering Islam.
I’m sure there are some Muslims out there who are Believers and they engage in polygamy IN THE CAUSE OF ISLAM, but I’m sure there are very few. Only Believers are living polygamy right. Allah says there will only be a few Believers.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
April 18th, 2010 on 9:18 PM
And then I say, “My husband doesn’t know anything about Islam and doesn’t care to know.” And what do I get? Huh? Huh? I get, you’re a bad wife and you should teach him. Do you know the barakats and blessings you’ll get for teaching him? Well, HELLO, he doesn’t want to know. But, I’m a baaaaad wife….He knew about polygamy though. He knew about that; didn’t he?
You have to excuse me because I’m experiencing BLOG RAGE right now
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
April 19th, 2010 on 12:03 AM
Ana
Thank you for your writings and for responding to my comments.
I can only address the issue of polygamy from my own study and my own feelings. I do not have community tradition, or faith tradition of polygamy to base my opinions on.
I understand your hurt, from your report of Alex’s actions prior to his marriage to Carolinah. To me a marriage is a partnership and as partners a change to the marriage should always be discussed. However from my understanding of your faith, the final decision to marry a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th wife is the decision of the husband. The does not mean the husband should not consult with his Wife or Wives before making such a decision. But there is no requirement he do so the decision is his. Am I correct? I am not saying this is right (I do not think this is how a Husband should treat his Wife or manage their marriage) but this practice is in accordance with your faith.
Once Alex (or any other husband) makes this decision it leaves only two choices for the Wife; accept the fact she must now share her husband with another women, or end the marriage. You choose to remain married to the man you love despite his flaws. You placed the marriage above yourself in that decision I applaud you for that. Where I find you in error is your treatment of a woman who loves your husband as much as you do. She knew when she married Alex she would have to share him with you, that you would always be the First (Senior) Wife, that your influence with Alex might end Her and Alex’s marriage. Yet she loved him enough to accept that risk and the hurt she knew she would have each he left her to return to you.
I may be wrong but I seem to recall Carolinah only “Bragged about the Fornication” after you verbally attacked her. As for nude Photos as you state they were sent to Alex’s phone, a wife’s private communication with her husband. Carolinah was not in error You were. As for what her private texts to her Husband indicate, they only imply a Wife expressing and acknowledging Her Husband’s love. She is not in error for such photos or such texts or her feelings for the husband she shares with you.
Did Carolinah marry Alex for Sex? I doubt he is that good in bed (I’m not) Is Sex an important part of any marriage? Absolutely. There is no wrong in that nor is there wrong in a wife discussing sex with her husband. Again you are in error.
“There is nothing that I can see or think of that I could do better for Alex and my marriage. I have done the best I can. “
From my study of your writings here I do not believe that to be true. You know there is more you can do and that you should for yourself, your husband, your marriage, and to show Carolinah what it means to live your faith. Your pride prevents you from being the helpmate, and partner you should be. You ask if you should be a “Slave” for the 2nd wife. How could you ever be? Once you accepted Alex’s marriage to Carolinah should you not have tried to be friend and a teacher to the Woman you share your husband with. If not for her benefit then for your own? Would it not be better to share with a friend than an enemy?
April 19th, 2010 on 12:52 AM
Kelley,
The only thing I can say is I’ve investigated and I’ve judged and my decision has been made. Alex has a life with another women/”wife” and a life with me. I’m going to focus on my wordly life with Alex and me only. I have no intentions of trying to make peace with her. If she decides to reach out to me in peace, I intend to return the greeting and nothing more.
Alex will need to adjust to living his life with me this way, if Allah keeps us together or the alternative is that we part. There’s nothing more I can say about it. I’ve expressed my feelings and thoughts about her and him here on this blog for a year and a couple months now to the point that I have become repetitive.
You are right what he does with her and to her is his and her business. I just pray to Allah I don’t catch any type of disease from being with a husband who has a “wife” who apparently has no morals. That is my main concern now.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
April 19th, 2010 on 12:58 AM
Ana I understand where you are coming from.
Most 1st wives do not want to share their husbands. I would venture to say that 99% of the 1st wives abhor, detest, hate, are extremely hurt, devastated, etc. (you get my drift) by the practice of polygamy. In most religions and cultures that allow polygamy or teach that it is permissible (including the Muslim religion as I understand it), it is considered an option, and it has nothing to do with a person’s eternal salvation or eternal destination. It is simply allowed – not required. I have said it before and I say it again – just because you can, does NOT mean you SHOULD.
After studying this form of marriage for awhile now, I still honestly do not comprehend WHY a man who professes to love his wife (if he really does love her and care about her) would ever put her through so much turmoil and pain and risk breaking up the marriage by taking another wife. And then to hear so many people put the responsibility of making things work out on the wives or blame them for the troubles that are naturally going to occur by making women share their man (duh). Sorry – I just don’t agree at all. As far as I am concerned – the men create the problem by choosing the “option” – they can deal with ALL the mess created – all by themselves. And should the wives, like you Ana, decide to stay in and make the best of it – they should be receiving the highest praise possible just for trying. Cause in my book – that is pretty amazing.
Sorry for the rant – but I just could not take any more. Now I will go back to my meek and mild self. lol
April 19th, 2010 on 1:45 AM
CM to the rescue
again. CM, you just don’t know; I was at my wits end. You don’t comment very often, but when you do it’s at a time when you’re desperately needed. The strange thing about it, you always articulate in such a mild, easy way what I’m trying to say. No one could have said it better.
For the life of me, I can’t for a moment understand how anyone can place the blame and weight on the first wife for her husband’s indescretions. You are absolutely right, it is not incumbent upon any Muslim man to engage in polygamy, it’s simply a right, an option. When the man exercises that right and lives get all jacked up, he places the weight on the WOMEN to rectify it. It’s just crazy, crazy, crazy…
Thank you CM for saying what I didn’t have the ability to say. This whole thing was just eating at me until I read your comment. God is great. He let me read it before going to bed. Now I can retire for the evening and be at peace.
April 19th, 2010 on 9:37 AM
“Now I can retire for the evening and be at peace.” Don’t forget the organic ice cream. We miss Mai.
April 19th, 2010 on 11:05 AM
I’m taking it easy on the organic ice cream because the organic ice cream hasn’t been taking it easy on me lol Those caloried SHOW up
That’s nothing to smile about!
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
April 19th, 2010 on 11:18 AM
OH XXXX!!!
ITS ESSAM 2.1!!
April 19th, 2010 on 7:07 PM
CM & Ana
Perhaps you misunderstand I am nether an advocate of, or detractor of, Polygamy; all you say is correct. Form my study any faith which permits Polygamy, does not require it. Let us consider why Polygamy would have been allowed in those faiths. My consideration of the question led me to the answer that Polygamy is permitted for the family. For the benefit of the first wife and for any children. Does this always work? Sadly no.
From my own case my Wife and I have been married for many years, our relationship is good, I Love her deeply and have never sought to hurt her or our marriage. My love for my wife did not prevent me and another woman from falling in love also. This leaves me with a conflict I do not Love my wife less, I do not Love the woman I would have for my “second” wife more. But my life is less because I do not have both of the Women I love with me. I believe is often the case and is why many cultures and faiths permit Polygamy.
Allowing Polygamy gives the option of marrying both wives rather than requiring a divorce, or the deception of adultery. With this line of reason does it not follow that Women with a Husband in common should not seek to cooperate and even seek friendship with each other? Is overcoming jealousy difficult, Is putting aside hurt hard to do? Of course it is, but when is something worth having easy; You get what you pay for. Ana you have spoken of people telling of your rewards to come because you have remained married after you have been wronged…that I cannot address. I can say from my own faith that God calls us to be more than what we are, More than what we think we can be, But never more than what God knows we can overcome. We only fail the test by not trying (and there is rarely a time limit).
April 19th, 2010 on 11:37 PM
Kelley,
You have asked some thought provoking questions. Now I have some for you if you don’t mind.
You said “Let us consider why Polygamy would have been allowed in those faiths. My consideration of the question led me to the answer that Polygamy is permitted for the family. For the benefit of the first wife and for any children.” Is it possible you are finding the answers you want to find?
Are you saying that the benefit to the family and the first wife and children is the fact that the husband does not have to divorce her when he “falls in love with another woman”? Honestly – I don’t see sharing a husband in order to keep him a benefit! But that’s me! And frankly, I also don’t see a lot of other benefits to the first wife! Yes it may cause her to have to grow and reach out to God because of the traumatic turmoil it throws her in. But so does cancer or other serious illnesses and tragedies. Would you knowingly bring those things into her life for her benefit?
I also have been doing a lot of research into polygamy both past and present practices, and both religious and secular practices. What I have found is that in most religions and cultures where polygamy is believed to be an allowed form of marriage but is not required for eternal benefit, the actual practice of it almost always brings a great deal of pain and anguish to the wives, but especially to the 1st wife who would not have freely chosen this form of marriage on her own. The pain they feel is the same kind of pain if not worse that cheating husbands cause their wives to feel. I say “if not worse” because in polygamy the man tells the 1st wife to accept the fact that he will be with the other woman for the rest of the marriage (which often is not very long because the 1st wife seldom can handle the pain.) Are you really OK with causing your wife that kind of pain and risk that she can’t handle it?
You say “does it not follow that Women with a Husband in common should not seek to cooperate and even seek friendship with each other?” The reality is that this seldom happens. What I have observed is that most wives who choose to stay in polygamous marriages brought about because their husband has chosen to exercise his “option”, still want to have a monogamous marriage. That is their firm desire. So many cope by insisting that they dwell in separate homes. They eventually come to terms with the fact that they only have their husband part time. Then they try to ignore the existence of the other wife (as best they can) in order to create the illusion of a monogamous marriage with their husband during the time they do have with him. If that is their way of coping with the situation – then what is wrong with that? It’s the husband that wants the other wife and family – not the 1st wife!
You also said “From my own case my Wife and I have been married for many years, our relationship is good, I Love her deeply and have never sought to hurt her or our marriage”. You may not have sought to hurt her or your marriage but I can almost guarantee that you HAVE hurt her and your marriage – deeply and probably irrevocably. Is it salvagable – possibly – but don’t expect the peaceful loving outcome that you are fantasizing about. It is not the norm – and from my observations, seldom happens. If you knew for sure that your wives would be very unhappy and dissatisfied in a polygamous marriage (which IS the norm) – would you still go forward with your desire to marry another wife?
I am assuming that when you married your 1st wife – it was with the understanding that it would be a monogamous marriage since it sounds like you started to research polygamy because of your now existing “situation”. My questions to you – Why does your 1st wife have to suffer the horrible emotional turmoil just because of what you want and feel. Why is she the one that has to make the sacrifices of her monogamous dreams? Why can’t you make the sacrifice (and deal with some pain) and let this other woman go? Why can’t you just honor the monogamous commitments you made to your wife when you married her? (Feel free to correct me if my assumptions are mistaken!)
I know I am directing these questions to you Kelley, but really I am asking these questions to all the men who decide to live polygamy knowing that their wives do not want this kind of marriage.
April 20th, 2010 on 5:20 PM
Kelley,
I read your post, and cannot respond to the specifics, because you have pulled over yourself too complete a veil of positive intent. “I mean no harm” is mantra such people say, as they trot down the path of pain they cause, meanwhile disclaiming responsibility. Why be aware, when positive intent feels so much better?
April 20th, 2010 on 5:35 PM
CM,
Thank You.
I will consider your argument (and re consider mine)carefuly and reply more fully soon.
April 21st, 2010 on 2:47 PM
CM,
I reviewed my statement and further considered my argument.
I must stand by my original argument.
Customs (be they Holy Writ or Cultural) which permit Polygamy did so not for sexual gratification of the male, but always the intent was for the benefit of the Family.
With that said is Polygamy misused, mishandled, and all too often abused? Yes.
You asked “Are you saying that the benefit to the family and the first wife and children is the fact that the husband does not have to divorce her when he “falls in love with another woman”?”
Ok, let us address that. A married man falls in love another woman; he has the resources to provide for her and His current wife. Out of respect for his current wife and the marriage he consults with his wife so that all parties involved have the information they need to choose to accept the change to all their lives. I do not believe this to ever be easy, I do not think it should be. I stand by my contention that once an agreement has been reached and a Co Wife is accepted then the wives should to set aside jealousy and seek friendship.
I know this is difficult we are only human.
My first wife left me for another man, I have experienced this hurt, how would I have responded had she consulted me and asked for the addition of another husband to our marriage? Likely not well, but this would have given me the information needed to either seek divorce, find a way talk her out of such a decision, or accept the change because of my love for her or the importance I place on marriage. Isn’t honesty and respect always better than deception?
As for your comments concerning my current marriage, I felt your true concern.
I hope any damage done has been only to me and not to my marriage or my wife, or the woman I would have as my wife.
April 21st, 2010 on 10:57 PM
Kelley,
I was just asking some questions and sharing some observations that I have seen from my study of polygamy over the past year and a half in an effort to get you and others to see things from a different point of view.
We are looking at different versions of polygamy. You are looking at your own “idealistic” version and I am looking at the “realistic” version I have observed during my study. You are looking from a man’s point of view, and I am seeing it from a woman’s point of view. It’s funny, but it seems polygamy always looks way better from the man’s point of view. Don’t you agree?
Yes, I agree it would be wonderful if everyone could just accept each other, be friends, and all live happily ever after. Wouldn’t the world be a better place if we all could achieve that level! Many women also think it would be wonderful if men could just love and cherish one woman and be satisfied.
There have been several comments made by well intended people just like you insisting that Ana needs to be friends with Carolinah. I believe that Ana and most the women who stay in polygamous marriages, in spite of their wish to not be in one, are trying their best. They are dealing with a lot of strong painful emotions. It is not only a matter of setting jealousy aside and developing friendships. It is far more complicated than that and so much harder than I think you or anyone else not in their place can understand.
If you have read Ana’s entire blog – you can see the progress she has made. She has come a very long way and deserves credit for that, just as do all the other women who are trying. She started this blog to not only find some help and support for herself but to provide it to many others who also are looking for support. Who knows where these women will go in their journey with polygamy. Maybe they will achieve the “ideal”. But I will bet that with the help of God it will be their “ideal” version which may not be the same as their husbands or yours and that is as it should be.
I wish you well with your current wife and the woman you would have as your wife.
Ana, Sorry – I don’t mean to speak for you. You can take it from here. lol
April 22nd, 2010 on 12:13 AM
Thank you CM for summing things up so nicely for me
Hi Kelley,
I’m glad you’re still with us. I’m calm now lol. I would like to talk a little about what you mentioned to clarify things a bit. You said, “Ana you have spoken of people telling of your rewards to come because you have remained married after you have been wronged…that I cannot address.” I think what has happened between Alex and I may not be easy for everyone to understand. The rewards from Allah wouldn’t come from me staying with Alex after he wronged me, but would come from me accepting polygamy. Allah say polygamy is permissible, so I have to go with that. I have to accept it. Now if there was some other reason Alex and my marriage wasn’t working, divorce would be an option with no problem. However, I had no other reason to divorce Alex. Some people probably would say his lack of interest in Islam would be reason enough. I never thought of divorcing Alex for that reason. So for me to say I don’t like Alex engaging in polygamy and I want a divorce means I don’t like what Allah likes. Allah say polygamy is permissible.
Now why don’t I like polygamy? Well, because I don’t like to share a husband; I don’t want my husband having sex with another woman; I don’t like him giving another woman his money; I don’t like him being in love with another woman and the list goes on and on. So, now, what’s wrong with this picture? A lot…there’s selfishness, jealousy, envy, greed, hatred, rancor etc. in me. They are all base emotions. Allah says we cannot have faith until we want for our brother what we want for ourselves. Polygamy gives me an opportunity to try to rid myself of these base emotions with the help of Allah and grow closer to Him so I could enter Paradise. We cannot enter Paradise with diseased hearts. My heart has to be sound for me to meet Allah in Paradise. Therefore, polygamy helps me to work on purifying my heart.
So Alex having wronged me has nothing to do with me. He has only wronged his own soul. If Alex engaged in polygamy for the wrong reasons and he’s hurt anyone in the course of it, if he’s lied, cheated, has been unjust or unfair, or committed hypocrisy etc in the course of engaging in polygamy, then he, like all of us, is accountable for what he has done. I shouldn’t object to Alex engaging in polygamy because Allah say’s it’s allowed. I shouldn’t concern myself with the problems that Alex encounters in the course of engaging in polygamy, for engaging in it for the wrong reasons or for doing it incorrectly .
You previously said Alex is allowed to be sexual with Carolinah, express his love to her sexually, view her naked photos etc. You said you don’t think she married him for sex. I just have to say that taking on a second, third, or fourth wife in Islam shouldn’t be for sex. It should be for the propagation of Islam and to bring people together to further that cause and help one another. Alex has told me he married Carolinah because she wanted sex. She has bragged to me about her sexual escapades and I’ve seen evidence of it on his phone. Everything about them seems to be sexual in nature. There’s no major concern for Islam demonstrated by either of them. Modesty and chastity is extremely important in Islam. What I have to try very hard to do is let it go and let them answer to Allah for what they do in THE PRETEXT THAT IT IS ABOUT ISLAM.
Kelley you stated, “Allowing Polygamy gives the option of marrying both wives rather than requiring a divorce, or the deception of adultery. With this line of reason does it not follow that Women with a Husband in common should not seek to cooperate and even seek friendship with each other?” I don’t think so. I don’t think the women need to cooperate and be friends simply because you are married to the two of them. You are not all married to one another. Just because you love two women, I don’t think they together need to accommodate you. You need to accommodate them. But, if after you’ve consulted with both women, they agree to be in a polygamous marriage with you and try to work it out all three of you together, I think that’s beautiful.
Thanks again, Kelley, for being here. I may elaborate more later on some of what you’ve said. Please feel free to ask more questions or share what’s happening with you.
This is an open house. No need to Knock. Just come on in.
April 22nd, 2010 on 1:26 PM
asalamu alaikum
I haven’t comented in a while, but this conversation drew me in.
I just wanted to say, Ana, I really like your last comment. I agree with just about all of what you said. Brava.
My husband married again, to the same sister as before – they agreed to work out their differences for the sake of their child – so I’m officially back in the club, :~ Must say I’m handling it better this time than the first time around, and it wasn’t that bad to begin with, alhamdulilah.
Hi Kelley,
I think I understand your point of view but I don’t agree with you. Frankly, if my husband would come to me and tell me he’s fallen in love with another woman and wants to marry her, but I should be thankful because he doesn’t want to divorce me and wants us women to be best friends, I would be seriously hurt and lose a lot of my respect for him. In my view as a muslim woman, a married man has no business falling in love with another woman. To me, he has already cheated – his eyes, mind and heart have already cheated – and now he’s just using polygamy to fix things, in a way trying to have his cake and eat it too. And I don’t have a problem with polygamy when the man is doing it to please God, but it bothers me when the man is trying to satisfy his desires and expecting his wife to not only accept it but make it easy on him and be happy about it because he’s not leaving her! I don’t mean to attack you, I’m really speaking generally about men who do this. I realize I don’t know the details of your situation and I believe you when you say you don’t mean to hurt your wife. But I fear she will be greatly hurt if you spring this on her.
April 22nd, 2010 on 4:32 PM
Romance before marriage is a crime. It is as much of a crime as “zina” because it has transcended the 2nd level of enormity involving men and women. Please allow me to explain;(see Reliance of the Travellor section on illegal relationships)
The 1st level of objectionable behavior between a man and woman is for the man to begin to speak “admiringly” or “familiarly” with a woman. For a man to adopt a casual demeanor exchanging small talk, laughter and jestures. This is why Islam is so clear on the interactions between men and women. Because this leads to the next “enormity”.
The 2nd is touching and being alone. Familiarity breeds affection and the chemicals created when a man and woman come together in close proximity to one another is “stronger than” estrogen or testostrone seperately. This chemical is, by design, intended to arouse the sexual interest between man and woman. And is mistaken for love but IS MORE ACCURATELY CALLED LUST. The prophet(peace be upon him) is reported to have said, “whoever commits adultery or fonications in their heart has already committed a blameworthy sin”.Sahih Bukhari
This religion has clear guidelines for a healthy and wholesome life. These instructions are from the Knower of All. If we pick and choose which of them we will observe, then not only will we never realize success, but we will incurr the wrath of Allah(ta ala) for misleading others.
Many a muslims give non-muslims the wrong impression about this religion. Many use the “Allah(ta ala) knows what’s in my heart” explanation for continuing in wrong. The truth of a person is known by what their limbs produce.
The 3rd enormity is “zina”. These are serious crimes. This is not like, when we were kafirs and we would jump from bed to bed, with the only fear being whether or not we contracted something. This is a crime for which the punishment is flogging or stoneing in this life, in order to avoid the most sever punushment in the next.
Recently a new muslim remarked ” I’m glad I found Islam before I met the muslims”. This is a terrible statement! We should be ashame of ourselves. But then again the prophet(peace be upon him) is reported to have said, “if you have no shame, you will do as you please”. That seems to be the current state of affairs with us. May Allah(ta ala) erect a people who will love Him and His way morethan they love their own. And may we be among them, ameen.
your brother in Oakland
“pray oftn n much”
April 22nd, 2010 on 7:05 PM
Well my brother in Oakland, Your statements leave me happy I am not muslim and therefore have not commited a crime. But am only considering committing one (a misdeameanor in my state).
Umm thank you for your comments and your story I hope for your sake and sake of the child you may find peace and joy in your marriage and family.
Ana Still working on a reply to yours Though I do apoligize for upsetting you For myself I am all too aware of how keeping negative emotions bottled up is a bad idea. You, CM and Umm have given me much to consider (or re consider). Thank You