Thoughts on the Legalization of Polygamy
by ana on Feb.23, 2010, under polygamy - the aftermath, Section 2
I stumbled upon a blog from 2006 - ”The Becker-Posner Blog”. The blog’s hosts were Gary Becker, an American economist and recipent of the 1992 Nobel Prize in economics and Richard Posner, a Judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago. Becker posed the question: “Should Polygamy be Legal?” and Posner commented. I found some of what he said to be interesting, and have included an except below:
“In polygamous households, the father invests less time in the upbringing of his children, because there are more of them. There is also less reciprocal affection between husband and wife, because they spend less time together. Household goverance under polygamy is bound to be more hierarchical than in monogamous marriage, because the household is larger and the ties of affection weaker; as a result, “agency costs” are higher and so the principal (the husband, as head of the household) has to devise and implement means of supervision that would be unnecessary in a monogamous household. (An additional factor is that women in a polygamous household have a greater incentive to commit adultery since they have less frequent sex with, and affection for, their husband, so the husband has to watch them more carefully to prevent their straying.) This managerial responsibility deflects the husband from more socially productive activities.
A woman who wanted a monogamous marriage could presumably negotiate a marital contract that would forbid the husband to take additional wives without her consent. However, she would have to buy this concession from the husband, which would make her worse off than if he were denied the right (in the absence of a contractual waiver of it) to take additional wives. Allowing polygamy would thus alter the distribution of wealth among women as well as among men.
Against all this it can be argued that polygamy would be uncommon in a society such as that of twenty-first century United States. But the less common it is, the fewer the benefits to be anticipated from legalizing it. And I am not sure that it would be all that uncommon. Although few American couples want to have more than two or three children, a polygamous union is not a couple. If a couple has three children, the ratio of adults to children is 2:3. In a polygamous household consisting of a husband, two wives, and four children, the ratio of adults to children is higher: 3:4. So the per-parent burden is less, even though there are more children.
Because polygamy is illegal everywhere in the United States, few Americans think of it as an option. If it were made respectable by being legalized, who knows? There are 400 American billionaires, and several million Americans with a net worth of at least $6 million. Nor, with most women working, is it obvious that a man would have to be wealthy in order to attract multiple wives, though presumably men who wanted to be polygamists would have to be able to offer some financial inducements, since most women would prefer to be a man’s only wife. As more and more men attempted to become polygamists, the “price” they would have to pay for a wife would rise, so polygamy would be a distinctly minority institution. But it would not necessarily be trivial in size or harmless in its social consequences, which would be likely to exceed those of homosexual marriage. Polygamy is banned in most advanced societies and flourishes chiefly in backward ones, particularly in Africa. This is some evidence against legalizing it.”
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February 24th, 2010 on 12:05 AM
Very interesting analysis of the problems with legalizing polygamy, Ana. Of course there’s one other problem too. Men seem to forget that the male/female ratio is 50/50 barring times of war. So polygamy is also unfair to men who are going to be denied a female because some rich guy is getting most of them.
Interesting how men who like polygamy never think they’ll be the one left with no woman at all.
February 24th, 2010 on 12:33 AM
If you’re waiting for the law to recognize polygamous marriages in the same way it currently recognize monogamous ones, I think you might be waiting forever. I don’t think that’s ever going to happen and here’s why:
1. There’s no incentive for political parties to put forward the idea in a democratic system, since polygamy is, and looks like remaining, an unpopular concept for the vast majority of westerners.
2. It’s just too messy. The legal concept of marriage (at least in my country) is just too entangled with laws surrounding taxation, family benefits, divorce settlement, etc. Adding multiple partners would just complicate things even further.
I’m not sure what the answer is. Stop trying to legislate marriage altogether? If the law continues to regulate marriage, then perhaps it should at least be updated to acknowledge the existence of committed polygamous relationships (not legally married) and remove the ambiguous criminal status many associate with [them] — in other words, not legalize [polygamous relationships] but unambiguously decriminalize [them]. What do you guys think?
February 24th, 2010 on 12:40 AM
Rebeckah said: ‘Interesting how men who like polygamy never think they’ll be the one left with no woman at all.’
lol. Good point Rebeckah!
The truth is though, even with a 50/50 ratio, there are still plenty of single men and women. Perhaps people are just more picky than social commentators like to assume.
February 24th, 2010 on 9:19 AM
Most people, not all, who promote polygamy do so on a religious basis, and use religious cannon to justify the arrangement of one husband with multiple wives only. Some, but not all, of those people also seek the legalization of this polygynous arrangement in the United States. The United States has a secular democratic government, and the days when such a powerful gender based privilege as polygyny can be legislated are in the past.
I find the legislative activism for polygyny coming from many men, including some grass roots contributors on blogs, and including well known pro-polygyny activists quite ironic. If and when polygamy is legislated in the United States, it will swing both ways. Those same activists will then be publically denouncing the results of their own campaign, using the same religious cannon they used to promote it.
February 24th, 2010 on 7:20 PM
Well that’s even more naive to believe the US (and other western nations) would legalize polygyny and not polyandry. Judith, are you really aware of men lobbying for that?
But what do you personally think? Should the government legislate marriage at all?
February 24th, 2010 on 8:42 PM
Hi Donald,
The answer to your first question is yes, I do, not personally of course, but from reading their blogs. I don’t take those people seriously, they are mainly people with some chip on their shoulder.
As for your second question, I don’t have much of a stake in it. It is not something I think about much. What I think about more is along the lines of ‘why do people hurt themselves, get themselves into harmful situtations, have unbearable relationships, indulge in unnecessary suffering etc…’ A relationship with God involves suffering, and it is the only suffering we cannot and should not seek to avoid.
February 24th, 2010 on 9:45 PM
Regarding the USA, I think the government has been handling polygamy quite well. They pretty much leave polygamist alone. The only time the government steps in is when circumstances like the ones I’ve mentioned previously present themselves. No one messes with polygamist because “Freedom of Religion” is our Constitutional Right and polygamy is believed by most to be part of a religion(s). Polygamists are allowed to carry on without any interference unless a general law(s) that applies to all Americans is violated.
I think the main reasons the government won’t legalize polygamy is for the reasons that you cited Donald:
“1. There’s no incentive for political parties to put forward the idea in a democratic system, since polygamy is, and looks like remaining, an unpopular concept for the vast majority of westerners.
2. it’s just too messy. The legal concept of marriage (at least in my country) is just too entangled with laws surrounding taxation, family benefits, divorce settlement, etc. Adding multiple partners would just complicate things even further.
I don’t think there is enough people living polygamy or wanting to live it that is willing to fight for it. There are more people with a strong distaste for polygamy that are willing to fight against it. Most polygamists just quietly live it and go on about their business.”
I don’t think polygamy is looked at as criminal except by those who don’t know the law. I’ve had Alex and my family members tell me Alex could go to jail and blah, blah, blah, for engaging in polygamy. They were just ignorant of the law. Yes, Alex’s job would have something to say if they found out. They’d tell him to get rid of his other “wife” or divorce me. There are a lot of stigma and negative publicity associated with polygamy, of course.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 24th, 2010 on 10:53 PM
u235Sentinel,
I understand what you meant about women needing a good selection of men to choose from and they are difficult to come by. The thought of leaving Alex simply because he engages in polygamy is not an option I’m leaning towards for that very reason as well. I’m sure it’s a major reason Carolinah agreed to be a second wife.
Who wants to take a chance of marrying a wife beater, alcoholic, drug addict, down low (Gay) guy, impotent man, gambling addict, or other? It’s a huge gamble going back out there or being there already looking. If you know what you have, you love the person, his disposition and habits are bearable and you have the important things in common, why take a gamble and possibly get an undesirable. Or, why should an unmarried woman settle for an undesirable simply because he’s single and not have the option to marry an already married desirable man.
If I’ve already made this comment, please excuse me. I’ve said so much, sometime I can’t remember if I’m repeating myself.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 24th, 2010 on 11:52 PM
Ana, one thing that many people seem to have a hard time with is that it is perfectly possible for a person to be happy without a marriage. I have been single for almost 25 years now. Sometimes it was hard but I am very content with my life. In fact, I’m quite happy just the way I am. I have a cousin who never married at all. She adopted a little boy from some southern country and raised him to fulfill her maternal desires and she too is happy. (Her son is happy and seems quite successful.) I don’t think the risks of marrying a wife beater, alcoholic, drug addict, etc. etc. etc. are nearly as great when you (as a woman) are true to yourself. If you are happy with who you are and secure about yourself as a person then you will not be looking for a mate to “complete” you for you will be complete in yourself. When you are comfortable and secure in yourself then your instincts warn you when a man (or woman) is toxic and you don’t need to ignore those instincts because you’re afraid of being alone or without love or whatever.
My point? Marriage is an option, not a necessity. No woman (or man) has to “settle” for anything if they don’t want to. When people are happy with themselves it all tends to work out.
February 25th, 2010 on 2:31 AM
Rebeckah, you said that with such eloquence. I agree with you. I don’t think a husband is a necessity for every woman to be happy and content in life. I was alone for quite some time before meeting and marrying Alex. I was happy and content as I devoted my time and attention to learning about Islam and growing nearer to Allah. And then there came a time in my life I had a strong desire for marriage again and sought a spouse.
I always had that desire from the time I was sixteen or so. I had several offers, but none measured up to what I envisioned to be my “Knight in Shining Armour” and I was enjoying the single life, as well. I put the quest for marriage on hold for a while after I became Muslim, and was somewhat going through a purification process, changing my way of life.
I don’t feel any strong need to jump back out there and find a husband as quickly as possible, should Alex and I divorce – that’s for sure – but I do enjoy being married. It just feels good and right to me. I’m very happy you are happy too
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 25th, 2010 on 1:48 PM
@u235Sentinel, I think engaging in polygamy is a bit more complicated for you simply because you must wait for the church (the leaders) to approve it, as it’s contrary to the State. I think I’m understanding it correctly. I apologize, if I’m wrong and please correct me. What would happen if you engaged in polygamy without the church’s consent? I hope you don’t mind me asking.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 26th, 2010 on 6:23 PM
hummmm, we haven’t had much company today. I guess some people got snowed in over here in the USA and couldn’t come visit.
Oh well, I’ve just been having a medley of thoughts. I thought there must be some merit to what I said in my previous comment about undesirable men out there, simply because there are quite a few women who are 2nd, 3rd and 4th wives. Supposedly the male/female ratio is 50/50 right? So if there were a good number of desirable men out there, women would be latching onto single desirable men and be an only wife, right? After all, most women prefer being an only wife. If women are marrying married men and becoming 2nd, 3rd and 4th wives, it has to be because those men have some very good qualities, not perfect of course, but have a lot of good or else these women wouldn’t marry them.
Now as for Carolinah and her and my non-communication. That’s all well and good. She doesn’t want to acknowledge me, refuses to communicate in anyway, and refuses to do as Allah say and return the greeting. Well, I must keep in mind that if it’s Allah’s will that something major happens to Alex… I don’t have to notify her, as I don’t know her or anything about her other than Alex said some woman name Carolinah is his wife. I owe her nothing. If it’s Allah’s will that Alex dies (Alex must be buried before sundown the next day) Oh well, I guess some how or another she’ll find out he died and was buried. See…I owe her nothing. See, I don’t know that woman. I don’t even know if she’s Muslim. She never said she was. I have no indication that she’s even his wife. Nothing was publicized the way it’s supposed to be done in Islam. There’s no sin on me.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 26th, 2010 on 7:31 PM
“Who wants to take a chance of marrying a wife beater, alcoholic, drug addict, down low (Gay) guy, impotent man, gambling addict, or other?”
Exactly. This is one of my talking points when the topic of legalizing polygamy comes up. When someone is looking for a potential mate, even with years of dating do you really know that person? It’s not until you walked in their shoes (for lack of a better example) that you really know them. Living with them is pretty close I think.
“Or, why should an unmarried woman settle for an undesirable simply because he’s single and not have the option to marry an already married desirable man.”
Another argument I make. There are plenty of men of quality who can reasonably take additional wives and care for them and their needs. So why not let them? Other countries in Europe (for example) have shown for years that it’s not a problem for society.
“I think engaging in polygamy is a bit more complicated for you simply because you must wait for the church (the leaders) to approve it, as it’s contrary to the State. I think I’m understanding it correctly. I apologize, if I’m wrong and please correct me. What would happen if you engaged in polygamy without the church’s consent? I hope you don’t mind me asking.”
I don’t mind.
I would be excommunicated. No if’s or but’s. End of story. It was announced by President Joseph Fielding Smith (not to be confused with the founder of the LDS Church) that any further polygamous marriages would find those doing it to be tossed out. It’s not something I want.
I have still some unresolved questions about the Church and polygamy. As it’s a sensitive subject to most LDS members I try not to bring it up myself. Unless they are talking about it that is
For example, we know it’s supposed to be authorized again in the future. The only reason we don’t today is they feel it’s impossible to live it and keep the laws of the land so to speak. But here’s the rub. It was so important to live it 100 years ago that people were willing to go to jail over it. And I’ve read several of the talks by LDS Leaders. They said it’s an eternal principle. And how do you ignore one of those?
Someday I’ll have the answers. For now I’m somewhat content to wait.
Oh and about the ratio of men to women, that we would run out of women eventually… wouldn’t that be a shame to have every women happy and fulfilled
Not to mention there are a LOT of guys who aren’t getting married until they are well into their 40′s!! What’s up with that? At my age and just getting started??? Talk about missing so much in life.
My .02 cents.
February 26th, 2010 on 7:51 PM
Are those guys that are waiting until age 40ish to marry sowing their wild oats (is that the saying?) up until then – or are they celibate until they marry at that age? I’d venture to say they’re drinking the milk without buying the cow. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk free?
U235Sentinel, thank you for sharing your views and perspective. I find it very interesting. I’m glad you clarified that we shouldn’t confuse President Joseph Fielding Smith with the Founder of the LDS church. For a second there I did. I’m like well when did this about face take place. Then you immediately clarified it for me. Please excuse my ignorance.
Is it safe to say that you and the persons in the media today are not of the same church?
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 26th, 2010 on 9:22 PM
Sentinel would know more than me, but I am aware that fundamentalist Mormon groups have broken away from the mainstream LDS church, and hold onto the practice of polygamy, which was taught and practiced by Joseph Smith (the founder of Mormonism).
My ‘church’ (that is the organization where we attend worship services) would be considered mainstream Christian. The topic of polygamy isn’t even discussed, such is the pervasive cultural assumption that it’s wrong. So if my wife and I were to take in a second wife and declare it to the congregation, I’m sure it would create enormous controversy. Would we be kicked out? I really don’t know, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we had to leave.
That would be the least of my concerns though. I like to think our truest friends would prove the depth of their friendship by seeing the sincerity of our convictions, and would remain our supportive friends. The true Christian church is not a man-made organization — it is the collection (or body) of people who have repented of their sin and trusted in the power of the resurrected Christ to forgive them and reconcile them to God. No man has the power to excommunicate me from that church, praise God!
But it does come down to the sincerity and strength of our convictions. Sentinel, if you or your wife are still unsure about your freedom to live that way, it would be better to keep a clear conscience and wait.
February 26th, 2010 on 9:49 PM
Donald, you said: “Sentinel, if you or your wife are still unsure about your freedom to live that way, it would be better to keep a clear conscience and wait.” I agree with you Donald. I think it’s best to do what sits right with us, individually, without a doubt. Sometimes it’s something we just feel that let us know what’s best for us.
Thank you for the explanation. You simplified it for me nicely. I’ve been wondering for quite some time. The opportunity to ask about it presented itself, so I jumped on it.
I think there are some Christians that embrace polygamy too. Someone on one of the blogs I visited explained it to me, but I can’t remember offhand which blog I was at.
Donald, thank you much!!!
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 27th, 2010 on 1:04 AM
Ana said: ‘I think there are some Christians that embrace polygamy too.’
Absolutely! Some are living it. A Christian is someone who follows Christ, and I see no evidence that Jesus ever taught against polygamy. In fact, the gospel of Matthew records a parable in which Jesus compared the kingdom of heaven to ‘ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom’. The five virgins who kept their lamps lit are then welcomed by the bridegroom into the wedding banquet. Now, it’s not a teaching about polygamy — it’s a parable with a deeper meaning. But I would consider it an odd choice of imagery if Jesus were opposed to polygamy. (There are those who argue that the ten virgins are actually just bridesmaids or guests or something, but it certainly doesn’t read that way to me!)
February 27th, 2010 on 1:39 AM
That is very interesting. I can’t for the life of me remember whose blog I was at…but, I just automatically assumed she was Mormon. She corrected me and explained there are Christian polygamist. I learn something new everyday. My family are all Christians. They don’t bother me about my life, but are totally not accepting of polygamy. My mom cites the problems between Abraham’s wives as being an example for how polygamy doesn’t work. They saw the agony I suffered when it happened to me, as well. It hurt my mom to see me like that of course. She was there for me though. She believes Alex is going to pay for what he’s done by way of God-She means God will take care of him-you know what I mean…punishment. Alex just got home from a business trip so I’m typing this fast while he’s near me.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 27th, 2010 on 6:56 AM
It must have just broke your mom’s heart to see you in such pain Ana. I’m glad she stuck by you.
Citing the problems associated with polygamous families in the Bible is a popular argument from Christians opposed to polygamy. The rest of the argument goes something like this: God tolerated polygamy because it was so commonly practiced, but it wasn’t his original plan. They usually refer to Genesis, where God gave Adam one wife, Eve, and arguably set a precedent for all marriages henceforth. I like to remind them of Adam and Eve’s record (according to Genesis): (1) they disobeyed God and brought a curse on all mankind, (2) their first child (Cain) murdered their second child (Abel). Hmm… If only Adam had a second wife, we might have blamed their problems on polygamy!
The truth is, the Bible is selective on what it reports about. Presumably, if someone had a peaceful and harmonious marriage, it wasn’t something the writers felt necessary to talk about. However, the conflict between Abraham’s wives Sarah and Hagar is of major interest, because it kind of foreshadows the conflict between their descendants. Sarah’s son Isaac is the father of Jacob, who is called Israel. Hagar’s son Ishmael is commonly thought to be the ancestor of Arab nations. So you have the religions of Judaism and Islam arguably descending from each wife. Gosh, and all because of polygamy!
February 27th, 2010 on 4:28 PM
Alex and my families were in a state of shock when they found out what Alex had done (polygamy). They never in a million years ever thought he’d do something like that. My family perceived him as as just an average, everyday, regular guy who they embraced and welcomed to the family.
The ones my family hated were my best friend who introduced me to Islam and his family. My family accused him of “brain washing” me and more. They were happy when Alex came along and was “normal” to them. They insist Alex engaged in polygamy to get back at me. Alex was extremely angry and bitter about the relationship I had maintained with my best friend. Since I was spending most of my time with my Islamic family, he felt he could get another family too; that’s what they believe happened. I think there is SOME validity to it.
Alex’s ex-wife and his mom said it was my fault, as well. They said I wasn’t firm with Alex. Of course his ex-wife said had she still been with him it would have never happened. Anyway, it did and now this is my life for today. So we go on.
Donald you said, “The truth is, the Bible is selective on what it reports about. Presumably, if someone had a peaceful and harmonious marriage, it wasn’t something the writers felt necessary to talk about.” That made me think of my writings. Until some of the readers advised they’d like to hear the good things in my relationship too, I only reported the pain, suffering and difficulties for the same reason; I didn’t feel it was necessary to talk about it. Consequently, some were thinking if the marriage is Hell why is she staying in it.
You apparently have done some indepth religious studying. It’s quite impressive.
I’m sorry I took so long approving the comment. I’m trying to do this email thing to the phone and it’s not quite working. It showed no new comments, but there was one. All this technology stuff gets crazy for me sometimes. I know for many it’s all elementary.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
February 27th, 2010 on 5:09 PM
@Ana “Is it safe to say that you and the persons in the media today are not of the same church?”
True. When the LDS Church began to restrict and stop practicing polygamy there were many who decided to leave and startup their own groups. FLDS is one of the larger ones and while they may claim to practice it, what I’ve seen suggests it’s nothing like what Joseph Smith started in the LDS Church. It wasn’t supposed to be a control thing. But that’s what I think it’s turned into.
My wife and I both believe we need to wait. I’m not sure what we are waiting for however I do know that it’s something that we can’t lightly jump into.
On that note, something that people don’t realize. Even though we don’t practice it, when a wife dies and if the husband marries again in the Temple then he is a polygamist. The Temple marries are for time and all eternity. Meaning that he is married to both females now. After they all die then he is married to both of them after this life.
I realize what I’m saying will make most LDS members freak. It’s a sensitive subject to most. I guess that’s a benefit from not having been raised in the church. I ask a lot of questions even the uncomfortable ones
February 27th, 2010 on 5:14 PM
@Donald “Absolutely! Some are living it. A Christian is someone who follows Christ, and I see no evidence that Jesus ever taught against polygamy.”
Oh yes, I’ve run across a few of them over the years here in America. They are amazing and follow it very closely. There are no forced marriages or any of that crap we see on TV.
I had an interesting debate with a person from Thailand who was against polygamy because she was afraid it would bring about homosexual marriage and worse. In our debate she understood that it wasnt polygamy that she had a problem with, it was the other stuff outside of it. Things basically that were not polygamy issues. Very interesting how often that comes out.
Anyway, In our discussion she said how can I love more than one woman? I said I have 6 kids. Which one do I love and does that mean I hate the others or love them less?
I know it’s not the same thing but it was an interesting discussion. And to realize there are many groups practicing it today. Not just FLDS but lots of Christian groups.
It’s not going to go away and from the last census I understand the numbers are growing.
February 28th, 2010 on 3:37 AM
Well, on the topic of ‘legalizing polygamy’: one step in the right direction has actually already been made and that is that the what is called ‘illegitimate’ children are now treated the same as the ‘legitimate’ ones, or nearly so. There are steps in the direction of treating the ‘common law partner’ the same as the ‘wife’. Consequently I think this is the way to go, to push for equal treatment for the ‘common law partner’. Who says there should be only one? The more usual thing is the ‘serial polygamy’ (one partner after the other) but if these dates overlap, so what? I am just using this argument with some Immigration Authority. Not sure if they will ‘buy it’ …
March 2nd, 2010 on 3:19 AM
The little response the real topic of ‘legalization of polygamy’ gets I suppose shows that all of you out there have little problems. It becomes a larger problem when you try to cross international borders and need residence permits….
March 2nd, 2010 on 5:46 AM
It would be a sad state of affairs if the number of responses to the topic “Legalization of Polygamy” here represented anywhere near the amount of interest in the topic
. For some reason, most people read and don’t comment (based on the site stats) regardless what the topic.
Nonetheless, my guess is there’s only a small fraction of a number of persons truly concerned with the “Legalization of Polygamy” and very, very few that are concerned with the problems men with multiply wives have trying to move about with them internationally. I don’t think polygamist get much sympathy, care, concern or compassion anywhere. That’s just my two cents for what it’s worth.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 16th, 2010 on 8:21 AM
Hi all. I was glad to find this forum because it is a bit stressing to not speak about what has been in my heart for several years now: the idea of Polygamy.
I am a Christian man in Australia surrounded by a secular culture where pornography is seen as an everyday thing, where homosexuality and soft-porn are shown on free-to air television and where abortion and divorce are seen as normal… BUT a man looking after the welfare of several wives is seen as perverted.
While reading my Bible one day I was simultaneously contemplating my estranged father and the fact he has married for a third time. He is a very wealthy man and has abandoned his two successive monogamous families now.
I came upon the passage Deuteronomy 21:15 which talks about the rights of a first-born child. According to this scripture if my father took many wives and eventually disliked some of them, the children of the those wives MUST still receive their rightful entitlements (and I personally would have received the traditional double portion, being the first-born from a first wife).
I was amazed that the ancient practise and lawful enforcement of Polygamy would in effect eradicate the cruel consequences of the abandonment of children and the inevitable poverty that usually ensues.
With 50% of marriages in Australia ending in divorce (and many workmates bragging how they cheat their ex-wives and children financially) imagine a situation whereby a man must marry those he wants to sleep with (fully enforced by the Law) and must support all his children. Adultery and Divorce would vanish and the 95% of criminals in our jails, who come from a home with no father, would vanish.
I know it sounds crazy but it could not be worse than what western society has become.
I saw a post above which spoke about Christ Jesus and 10 virgins…or bridesmaids. This parable is about 10 women marrying one man (symbolically: Jesus our Lord and his Church joining together). This is not in dispute even by those Christians against Polygamy.
There are many times in the Old and New Testament where the Church is compared to a Polygamous marriage with God.
It is a bit sad to realize that some “modern” Christians have discontinued certain aspects of what is considered an eternal covenant.
I do not agree with everything in Islam but polygamy is certainly something that many Muslims have got correct(some Jews and some Christians too).
Have anyone here heard of Christian Polygamy occurring amongst majority-Muslim countries (or populations)? Perhaps in more Ancient Biblical
countries?
It does not appear as if there is much info out there!
Thanks Ana.
God Bless…
March 16th, 2010 on 9:45 AM
G’day Jason! Legally enforced polygamy? Now there’s an idea I’ve not heard championed recently!
Keep in mind that polygamy (however you want to try and legislate for it) won’t prevent a cruel man from mistreating multiple wives any more than monogamy prevents him from mistreating one wife. And every woman has the right to leave an abusive relationship, for her own protection and the protection of her children. You can’t simply eradicate absent fathers by passing a few laws.
That statistic you quoted — that 95% of jailed criminals ‘come from a home with no father’ — where did you get that from? That’s very interesting if it’s accurate.
March 16th, 2010 on 2:30 PM
Hi Jason and welcome to polygamy 411. I’m glad you’ve joined us and communicated your views. You’ve put a good deal of thought into the subject. I see you’re very knowledgeable of the subject polygamy, which is impressive. It’s beautiful to see someone with so much passion for polygamy. I believe polygamy is a beautiful way of living if entered into by persons that have good, unselfish intentions, if done for the right reason (to please God), and is done properly.
You have some good arguments and made some interesting points. Yes, it is crazy that today’s populace sees polygamy as something perverted. Porn, adultery, fornication, lewdness, etc. are all considered the “norm” today. I was thinking times have changed for the worst; however, a friend of mind keeps telling me that things haven’t changed over the years. For example, Lut’s (Lot’s) people were always here.
I was even taken back a bit when I was bashed here on this site for being upset my husband had naked porn pictures on his cell phone of his second wife, pictures that she had sent him over the airwaves. Some commentators here on this blog scolded me and advised me to let my husband enjoy his wife’s nasty pics that he brought into my home. He took his porn tape with him when he married her (his second wife). I don’t watch porn. I’m surprised I wasn’t told to let him keep his porn tape in our home, after all, it’s HIS home too right? (sadly LOL).
You have some very good ideas that you posed and interesting views. I’m happy our dear friend Donald, (the dapper duck) has commented to you. I’m interested in knowing more of your biblical views on the subject, Donald. It would be nice to hear more from others on the subject, as well.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 16th, 2010 on 6:23 PM
as far as i no it had always been until the catholic churn took over, and it even goes back the toe Romans taking a wife giving her his name bcos she was his property to do with as eh will even to sell or kill her. For Jason there are some in the states called Mormons of which are all over but based at most in Utah. The law keeps trying to catch them at it but so far no go. they marry only under the eyes of god so no legal paper work to fallow. The problem is they have, some as much if not more then 12 wives, i seen in 1 case a divorced woman converted to be Mormon and married then her daughter also married him which i found to be quite sick to be so close in that gene pool hello is it ur grandma or step mom?? In Islam its no more then 4 but back in biblical times even Salomon had over 100 wives and concubines, Abraham and Moses had also. Jews have several wives but from what iv seen they are very cruel to them even throwing them into the streets for not allowing a new wife to live in the house refusing to even feed their kids, stating ill give you a div but i get the kids cos ill not give you a penny, Zionist are doing this also. it would be a good thing to allow it to become legal in the west and Europe and i say this bcos how many men cheat on their wives with mistresses, childern born out of wedlock, more fatherless childern and struggling mothers alone, divorces, and some times a enraged woman finds out and then you have murder on the other woman and or the husband not a pretty site. about the 95% i dont think so not all are there for lack of fathers, some are there for killing there fathers, lol in any case it would be a good thing to cut down on such things as fatherless childern and as for your father just because he div your mom dose not mean you were not entitled to anything it only means eh made sure you got nothing kinda like what my moms fathers wife did of her. there child got it all and my mom didn’t get a thing
March 16th, 2010 on 10:12 PM
Of course the white elephant in the room is the pain and hardship polygamy causes for women and children. It’s been studied extensively and the results show depression, anxiety, stress, less academic success for children, difficulty in relationships for children and more. Polygamy is NOT in the best interest of women and children. It hurts them.
It sounds to me that the solution to the “fatherless criminals” situation isn’t polygamy but holding men responsible for their choices to reproduce. Instead of society allowing them to “cheat their ex-wives and children” perhaps society should start penalizing them for such self-centered and cruel behavior. Heck, maybe men should be given vasectomies when they hit puberty which can only be reversed when they’ve shown themselves to be mature, responsible and prepared to care for their offspring.
Just a thought.
March 17th, 2010 on 5:45 AM
Compulsory polygamy to compulsory vasectomies. Well, we certainly have the sociopolitical spectrum fully represented here on Ana’s blog don’t we. (It’s alright Rebeckah. I know you were being facetious. I think. I hope!)
Okay, I’m going to venture my opinion on the ‘fatherless criminals’ situation. Absent parents (either physically absent, or emotionally absent) are a huge problem in our society, but it’s only part of the picture. Even if both parents are present, there is evidence (I don’t remember where I read this, but I will try to find it if challenged) to suggest that children tend to grow into more well-adjusted adults for the positive influence of other adults (mentors/roll-models) in addition to their parents.
In many tribal cultures, the community at large is seen as responsible for the nurturing of children and their transition into adulthood. When a boy is considered ready, there is a formal process of initiation into manhood. We’ve lost most of that in our modern western culture. Instead of seeking the approval of the elders, teen boys find their cultural identity amongst their peers. And instead of a structured initiation into manhood, they seek to prove their manhood to each other through behaviour like binge drinking, dangerous driving and sexual conquest. These are the fathers of the future, so the cycle continues.
It’s not good enough for oldies like me to shake our heads and say, ‘kids these days!’ The kids are not the problem. The older generation that fails to take responsibility for the way our children transition into adulthood is to blame.
Part of the problem, I believe, is how our culture idolizes youth and good looks. Who are the faces of pop culture? Who do our youth aspire to be? Leaders in humanitarian fields of endeavour? Hmm…
March 17th, 2010 on 8:53 AM
Jason,
I like your idea about polygamy, and I do think it would address your concenrs. For example, if a wife had 2 husbands, then there would be more earned income to support the family, and the boys could rest securely thinking about their inheritance. Further, the men would be less likely to lose interest, knowing there is another man to compete with.
And, following Donald’s concern, which is also about the boys, there would be plenty of male adult influence and guidance.
March 17th, 2010 on 12:59 PM
“(It’s alright Rebeckah. I know you were being facetious. I think. I hope!)”
No, I don’t really think one should force sterilization. I would love it if a safe and effective form of birth control that was outside of the child’s control was actually developed, however. It would be nice for children to not be able to have children. (Of course, I’d want this to be a reversable process for when the children are old enough to think about actually being parents.) Just a dream of mine, I know. It was more of a statement of the false “data” being offered on the evils of single parenthood. The truth is, children in polygamous families often feel like they have no father, so polygamy would not be a solution to absentee fathers.
March 17th, 2010 on 2:52 PM
Judith, funny! It goes without saying that a lot of young women are pretty screwed up too for lack of positive role models. Not as many end up committing violent crimes however and end up in jail, which is what started that whole train of thought. I just quickly scanned this UK article (http://www.equalities.gov.uk/media_zone/press_releases/women_in_prison.aspx) which says ‘Men comprise just under 95% of the population custody’ and ‘Nine out of 10 women prisoners have been convicted of non-violent offences’.
Rebeckah, you’re right that children should not be having children, and I’d agree that’s what a lot of young men really are. They can have the physical strength of a man’s body, and still be relationally and morally infantile — a dangerous combination. If parents and the community haven’t done their job by the time these boys/men are independent, you’re fighting a losing battle I think.
I do think it’s a bit unfair of you to accuse people here of calling single parenthood ‘evil’ though. Isn’t it fair to say that a child benefits from the active involvement of both a loving mother and father? I understand how a single mother doing her darn hardest to raise her children by herself might take offence to that generalization. But can you at least concede that a loving polygamous family unit might similarly take offence to you making generalized comments about the ‘evils’ of polygamy? If it’s okay for you to make generalizations about polygamous families, then you gotta play fair and allow others to make generalized comments too. (It would be more helpful if we all backed up our statements with links to relevant research, but in this kind of forum that rarely happens.)
March 17th, 2010 on 10:00 PM
While we’re waiting to hear back from our dear friend Rebeckah (I’m ducking and taking cover), please allow me to jump in for a moment with my 2cts. I’ve brought what I’m about to say to the attention of my Non-Muslim family at a gathering and they thought I was crazy, really crazy. They were conversing about what they’d do if their kids came home pregnant or got someone pregnant.
I interceded and said I think it’s OK for children to have children. Oooops, don’t hurt me . God gives girls their menses at whatever age 12,13??? I can’t remember personally. He gave them their menses at that age for a reason, and made them able to conceive and bear children. He gave boys a desire for sex, as well.
Why shouldn’t a 16 year old be able to get married and have a child? I know you’re going to ask – well whose going to take care of it? I’d say the extended family, but they don’t too much exist anymore. Nonetheless, children are having children because apparently that’s what they are supposed to do.
The trouble is-man with his man-made laws prevent anyone from getting married (in the USA) until they are 18. It’s OK to have sex when you’re 16; it’s legal, but you can’t get married. It forces young girls and boys, that have sexual appetites that they can’t control, to commit fornication. It forces the girls to have children out of wedlock. It forces the girls to have abortions to avoid the stigma of bearing a child out of wedlock and at such a young age. I just needed to say that.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 17th, 2010 on 11:16 PM
Ana, I don’t think you’re crazy. I don’t always agree with you, but I have always respected your boldness in expressing an unpopular opinion, or confessing some of your less restrained moments relating to Alex and Carolinah.
Jason had the boldness to express an unpopular opinion too, and I sincerely hope we haven’t scared him away with our comments.
I firmly stand by my statement that ‘children should not be having children’, and let me expand upon that to say that children should not be having sex at all. But that’s based on my definition of ‘children’. You’ll notice that I never defined an adult based on age. Telling a child they become an adult when they hit 18 certainly simplifies things for society. It’s easy and unambiguous. It’s a cop-out really. What magically happens at 18 to make someone capable of all the responsibilities of being an adult in society? Absolutely nothing. Perhaps it’s merely an acknowledgment that a certain percentage of people reach a certain level of maturity by that age. But in reality, there would be some 15 year-olds with far more relational and moral maturity than many 25 year-olds. Yes, let me bold enough to say it — some 15 year-olds (a vast minority I would suggest) are probably mature enough (physically, mentally and emotionally) to marry and have babies, whereas some 25 year-olds are not.
How we, as a society, handle that reality is the difficult question though. Our priority must be to protect the innocence of children. If that means keeping a law in place that forbids sex and marriage below a certain age, then I think it’s worth it. Certainly, we need to do a lot more though, in terms of real mentoring and roll-modelling as I said previously. Would you agree?
March 18th, 2010 on 1:04 AM
Donald, yes, I hope we haven’t scared Jason away
Perhaps he’s preoccupied at the moment, and will be back. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know what happened to Ted either. He visited us with an interesting comment, but never returned –at least not that we are aware of.
As for what you said about protecting the children, I agree with you that we must protect the innocence of the children to the best of our ability. So many children are being abused so badly – physically, psychologically, emotionally, sexually, including incest and abductions etc. It’s horrific.
I rented the DVD of “Precious.” I so much disliked that movie. I thought it was appalling. I think most people know that there is much abuse of children out there, without showing a despicable portrayal like that. I don’t think there was anything for anyone to gain from watching that movie. What was the benefit?
You said you think we need to do a lot more though in terms of real mentoring and role modeling. Although it would be nice, I don’t think we can do much more than what’s being done. Like Jason said, this society, meaning man in general, is too steep in perversions. Like he said, homosexuality, pornography and sexual perversions are rampant and considered the “norm”. Who is doing all of this? Gross materialism is exorbitant. Anything and everything goes now a day.
We all have our own shortcoming and problems that we’re dealing with. I think very few of us can be role models, which is where spirituality comes in. The only thing I think we can do is teach children and try to be the best we can be for our own sake. Of course I don’t have any children so I really don’t know.
I think the only true role models are the Prophets, which I’ve stated many times elsewhere on the blog. The prophets, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Job, Jesus, and Muhammad (PBUH) are our role models. The way I see it all of the prophets are our examples.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 18th, 2010 on 1:45 AM
Donald, I’m sorry I wasn’t clear but I was reacting specifically to Khadijah Z’s assertions that divorce and a lack of legal polygyny is causing violent criminals. It was a pretty baseless comment.
There actually is research that children in polygynous families, particularly children of first wives (although that may only be in places like Saudi Arabia) feel as though there father wasn’t there and a lack of a familial relationship with him. I can look up the research if you want or you can go to http://www.tripleap.org and see if you can locate something interesting there. An internet pal of mine has compiled links to a lot of polygamy research there.
Ana, the truth is that puberty comes about 4 years earlier for children now than it did 100 years ago. And the frontal lobes of the average human doesn’t finish maturing until they are approximately 25. Plus, childbearing and childbirth is considerably riskier for a girl who has not finished her physical growth, regardles of whether or not she has finished puberty. I was 18 when I had my first child and my obstetrician told me that it would have been healthier for me to have waited another 4 years at least until my body finished developing fully.
If you’d like I can find you some research on the negative outcomes for children having children too.
March 18th, 2010 on 2:09 AM
I’m beginning to think many children are suffering in ALL types of relationships. It doesn’t matter whether the relationship is polygamous or monogamous. Think about it: women having children out of wedlock with no male/fatherly figure present; monogamous and polygamous marriages resulting in divorces; couples married, but emotionally detached from each other; orphans; children given up for adoption and the problems it present for them; foster children; same sex parents with adopted children. There could be a father and mother present in the household and they have a child that’s a homosexual, drug addict or criminal and they thought they were the ideal parents. There’s monogamous marriages with domestic violence and child abuse, just as there is in some polygamous marriages. Where does an ideal enviornment really exist for children?
Polygamy was prevalent way back when, back in biblical times. In what condition were the children then? They all suffered in some kind of way or another. Cain killed able. Joseph’s brothers threw him into the well. Fathers such as Jacob had a favorite child. Perhaps the ideal that we think exist, just doesn’t.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 18th, 2010 on 4:46 AM
No, this side of death there is no perfection, no ideal. Life is messy, dirty, full of pain, suffering and struggle. But there is also beauty, light, joy and love. It’s our job to let the light of God’s love shine in our lives and the lives of those around us. You don’t have to be perfect to be a mentor and a roll model. First of all, you need humility and meekness to be able to learn from those wiser and more mature. Then you need to be willing to share what you have learnt with the next generation.
Is that not what God taught us through the prophets?
Through Moses:
‘Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.’ (Deuteronomy 4:9)
‘Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.’ (Deuteronomy 11:19)
Through Jesus:
‘When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.’ (John 13:12-17)
The prophet Elisha spent years following Elijah, and then God’s spirit came upon him in power as it had been on Elijah. Jesus disciples spent years following him, and then God’s spirit came upon them in power too. I believe this is God’s model of positive influence. Relationships. Mentorship. Roll modelling. Jesus and the prophets are our examples, that is true. So we ought to do as they did.
Imagine what kind of world it would be if every mother and father modelled a life of love and compassion to their children, spending hours of quality time with them every day? Maybe you and I can’t change the whole world, but we can change the lives of those closest to us in positive ways. That’s what God asks each of us to do.
March 18th, 2010 on 5:03 AM
To All,
This may help those who truly want to understand the pitfalls many experience in a polygamous relationship.
Qur’an 18-50- Behold We said to the angles “Prostrate to Adam”; they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
March 18th, 2010 on 6:38 AM
You’re so right Donald. That’s the best any of us can do. “We ought to do as they did.” “Jesus and the prophets are our examples.” We have to rehearse their signs, follow their ways. That’s how we could be role models and makes a difference. We can teach and those who listen can accept or reject it. With that we’ve done our part, regarding others. Thanks for rehearsing the verses.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 18th, 2010 on 6:50 AM
As Salaamu Alaikum Ali,
In essence, those who reject polygamy and find fault in it simply reject Allah and are arrogant. There is no difference between them and Iblis (Satan). Satan refused to bow down to Adam as commanded by Allah. Satan was arrogant and haughty and refused to accept Allah’s decision. Men (mankind) are the same as Satan that refuse to accept polygamy. Many there are that follow the footsteps of Satan.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 18th, 2010 on 7:52 AM
As Salaamu Alaikum Ana
Profoundly stated Ana! There also a very important element that should not be overlooked! When we break the Command of Allah, He in exchange gives us an evil disposition. This disposition becomes the foundation of the polygamous relationship. Partners in any relationship, especially a polygamous one, should be cautiously selected to achieve a healthy and prosperous relationship (marriage)!
March 18th, 2010 on 8:13 AM
Oh, here’s another interesting statistic. I spelled (or is it spelt?) ‘role model’ incorrectly 80% of the time in this thread. Thankfully, Ana has modelled the correct spelling for me and I have learnt! (Or is it learned?)
March 18th, 2010 on 10:05 AM
ain’t no problem Donald. We be all friends hear. No swet
March 18th, 2010 on 12:27 PM
Wa Alaikum As Salaam Ali,
I’m not quite sure what you mean when you say Allah gives those who reject his command an evil disposition in polygamy. I’m assuming you mean there is no harmony in the marriage of those who do not engage in polygamy seeking to please Allah. Please correct me, if I’m wrong. I question, as well, how the command of Allah was broken in my marriage, for example, if it applies.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 18th, 2010 on 1:36 PM
Ana, this is about your assertion:
“In essence, those who reject polygamy and find fault in it simply reject Allah and are arrogant.”
I believe that you indicated in previous posts that a woman has the freedom to choose a monogamous lifestyle, and choose a husband who chooses a monogamous lifestyle, and still lead a believing life that is within the precepts of Islam.
March 18th, 2010 on 2:55 PM
Judith, you said, I indicated in previous posts “a woman has the freedom to choose a monogamous lifestyle, and choose a husband who chooses a monogamous lifestyle, and still lead a believing life that is within the precepts of Islam.”
I say there is no compulsion in Islam, which means a woman that dislikes polygamy and refuses to marry or remain married to a polygamous man has an option (choice the illusion). The option is to not marry the man that believes in polygamy or to divorce the man that exercises his right to be polygamous.
Nonetheless, the woman who opt against polygamy would still be held accountable to Allah for disliking what He (Allah) has made permissible for man – polygamy. Muslims are supposed to love what Allah loves and hate what Allah hates. Allah would not make permissible something that is not good.
If a woman dislikes polygamy it usually is because she is selfish, greedy, arrogant, haughty and don’t want to share. She is arrogant because, in essence she is saying, for instance – “I’m not going to share a man. I deserve to have a man to myself. I’m too good to share a man. If I can’t have my own man, I don’t want a man at all; I’ll stay by myself. Humm, I’m not going to do that. I’m too good for that. I don’t like it, don’t want it and I’m not going to be a part of it. The woman is arrogant and haughty like Iblis (Satan) who refused to bow down to Adam, refused to accept what Allah said to do.
In turn the woman finds every excuse under the sun not to accept polygamy. She searches every nook and cranny to find loopholes to what Allah says in Quran. She’ll say, for instance, “We must obey the laws of the land; the country in which we liveforbids polygamy. Polygamy was for war times. Polygamy was for men who have wives who can’t conceive. Polygamy was abolished the same way slavery was, and on and on and on. They’ll embrace any excuse to justify their dislike of what Allah says is permissible – polygamy.
Allah says accept the whole Quran, not only the parts that we like.
Perhaps Allah will allow a particular woman to live a happy monogamous life and never experience polygamy. At the same time that woman should embrace the concept of polygmay and love it in her heart, although Allah hadn’t decreed she live it. The woman shouldn’t reject it if it’s presented to her as a way of life. If she rejects it, she should make every effort to embrace it and love it.
Allah has determined, written every man’s fate before he was born, so there is no choice only the illusion of choice. What we consider choice is simply desire.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
March 18th, 2010 on 3:23 PM
Thanks Ana. That clarifies things.
March 18th, 2010 on 4:59 PM
Asalaam Alaykum okhti hope i find you well. In regards to teen mom’s here is my 5cnts sorry im throwing in a bit more, okhti lol. Not all teen moms need to have there elders to take care of their child. I started young taking care of kids, the 1st i took care of my younger 4 siblings and cooked for them i was 8yrs. How was i able to do such a thing bcos my family liked to do things together, my grandfather loved to cook so i learned from him by always helping when i was at their home. As a growing teen i took care of neighbors and friends of my moms kids including a child who was born in a difficulty and had a colostomy. Not some thing a 13yr wants to deal with let alone a diaper, but i did. Not all in life is perfect, and not everyone comes from a great back ground, kids learn as they live and see. if they live with abuse they learn to abuse, same for neglect or to be a good parent. I dont no of any teen girl sets out to get preg at an early age, but hey lets say it as it is, shit happens!! There was no such thing when i was young as date rape, having your soda drugged in a movie is not some thing you expect, nor to be preg at 16yr and a mother of a premature child with health problems at age 17yr but if children are not made to be put on pedestals to think esp in boys that nothing they do is wrong or its always the girls fault, less crap happens. i’m sorry but im sick and tired of some of the most ignorant things people say like put a 12yr on birth control or give him a condom, its like saying ok you want to do drugs or drink do it at home with out saying but you could die or become an addict or alcoholic. What crap is it to say to cut of some ones livelihood just bcos your angry at some man bcos you did not get things your way or you got an jerk in your life time? Not all are slackers or out to make babies like there zippers are on fire. However teaching ones child the consequences of the mistakes if they proceed down a path is a lot better, then thinking sex ed in school be left up to the teacher, you dont pay them enough for raising your child! just bcos some one thinks a man having more then one wife, where he pays for all things for them, the childern and more, wail 1 man slacks and dont even want to marry even 1 or pay for 1 child simply bcos he has no morals, bad upbringing or simply wants more then one. keeping them from roaming the streets after women, bringing home a std or worse brings to mind if he has a diff wife every night then when dose he feel the need to go out and prowl the streets. How many women are mistresses to married men, are not cared for get abortions, look at the news, it dose not even tell a pinch of the stories going on in this world. There is no where in the bible that forbids a man from having more then one wife its a Roman satire to own every thing giving all belongings his name, land, animals including his wife to sell of kill bcos she was his property so saith the catholic church. Polygamy is not an easy life, but if you can get past he is with her now doing$^&&^% and think on things much better or cleaner then what is the problem, its better then a man cheating on you, with god knows what
March 18th, 2010 on 5:09 PM
I hope i didnt come on to strong or offend anyone
March 18th, 2010 on 9:11 PM
Wa Alaikum AsSalaam Okhti,
It seems we have more in common than I thought. I too (along with my 1 yr. older than me sister) took care of our two younger siblings when I was about seven or eight years old and I began cooking for my entire family at about 13 or so. The only thing is it had a devastating effect on me and made me dislike children and cooking. However, my older sister loves children. So it affected her differently.
About polygamy, I don’t think people will grasp the concept unless they’re required to live it. They won’t rationalize that it is better for a woman to know who her husband is having sex with on a routine basis opposed to him being with any woman he picks up in a bar, on the street, or at work – wherever. They just know that what they don’t know won’t hurt them. They usually think all is honky dory or they are in denial until the infidelity hits them smacks some reality into them. Then most of them usually pack their things and leave or vice versa. I was just reading online about actress Sandra Bullock finding out her husband had been “cheating” on her.
I just got finished talking with Alex about it. He said, “I know why he cheated. I know why all men cheat on their wives.” I asked, why? He said because they think they’re so beautiful that they don’t have to give their husbands any sex.” That really pissed me off. What? Is it all about sex for men? I’m thinking maybe parents need to start teaching their daughters (when the daughters become teenagers) how to be the best sexually, provocative, sensual being that she can be and how to please and be sexually pleasing to her husband. The problem is – it probably still wouldn’t make the husband not desire another woman. It’s a no win situation. So it’s probably best for women just to accept man’s nature. They should just accept that men will be with other women whether the wife/mistress/girlfriend are aware of it or it’s done secretly until they find out.
I agree with you completely that if a woman can get past the thoughts of what her husband is doing with his other wife then she would be able to be so much more content and even happy with polygamy. It takes a lot of prayer and remembering Allah to be able to do it. Then life begins to get easier.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
September 9th, 2010 on 7:36 AM
Eid Karim Mubarak. It has already been made lawful from earliest times first from Allah swt and from all the Prophets. So the question itself is ignorant and reflects the g’dless time we live in. If this is a muslim site, why isn’t the position of Allah swt from Qu’ran and his Prophet in his life example being put forth;but opinions from people not recognized mainly as religious people being put forth. As if we are to have more respect for the opinions of current so-called authorities than the Qu’ran and Prophet Mohammed SAWS. Why is Obama,s opinion about polygamy posted here as some type of acceptance important, if he’s not a muslim? Why and when did non-muslims get authority or permission to make choices for muslims? Why would muslims value the opinions of non-muslims more than muslim authorities? Allah swt guide us to light. Amin There is no problem sharing ideas about polygamy with non-muslims etc. But if we are muslims we should also be offering our position in the debate. If I’m a muslim should I have non-muslims opinions first and foremost on my website above muslim and islamic sources? I smell fish! Eid Karim mubarak
September 9th, 2010 on 12:23 PM
Light, Eid Mubarak!
This is a polygamy site. It is for ALL to share concerns, views, and experiences etc. about polygamy. It is not Islamic studies.
I think you misconstrue a lot of what is presented on the site. Everyone’s comments are posted in the order they are received, regardless of who they are or what their views etc are. Individuals respond to the comments as they see fit. People comment on what they’ve read here or they put forth comments for consideration. Not many differentiate between Muslims and non-Muslims on this site in a blatantly derogatory manner. Occasionally some do, but are asked to refrain.
President Barack Obama hasn’t expressed any opinion on polygamy that I am aware of. He is the president of the United States and I like the video portrayed of his family, which is why I posted it.
We have already established what this site is for and about. We value your input, but at the same time ask you to accept the site for what it is, oppose to trying to make it what you want or think it should be
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
September 9th, 2010 on 12:24 PM
Ana,
Upon reading Alex’s comment, as you wrote it,
(“I know why he cheated. I know why all men cheat on their wives…because they think they’re so beautiful that they don’t have to give their husbands any sex”)
I got the impression that Alex is angry about something, resentful, and feels he is due something. I don’t know what it is of course. Most of us who are angry in life don’t really know what exactly we are angry about. Usually it is because we did not get something we assumed we were owed.
It also sounds to me like he got into polygamy, thinking that would help, but that he is still angry.
Ana, I know you stated a long time ago that you think you deprived your husband of affection, and thus pushed him into polygamy. Although I didn’t respond at the time, I, like Donald who responded, am one of the readers who has never believed that Alex’s choice to adopt a polygamous lifestyle had anything to do with you.
We often go into relationships with fantasies about who a person is, only to have that fantasy blow up in front of us, doing a lot of damage to our ego and pride. But it is just more ego to think that a person’s choices are a function of ourselves.
Ana, dear, you have come a long way. You said that Ramadan was refreshing for you this year. Why not share with us what are the most important steps you have taken this year since Ramadan last year?
best,
j
September 9th, 2010 on 2:14 PM
Eib Mubarak. What is it? Salaams
September 9th, 2010 on 2:23 PM
Light, Eid Mubarak!
For a better idea of what the site is, you could click on “about us” and “purpose of polygamy411″ or you could define “it” for yourself. We already have an idea of what your definition is based on your comments – you “smell fish” – so be it.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
September 9th, 2010 on 2:55 PM
Hi Judith,
You said, “Most of us who are angry in life don’t really know what exactly we are angry about. Usually it is because we did not get something we assumed we were owed.” I agree with you on that. I can vouch for a fact I’ve had misplaced anger.
I also agree that Alex “got into polygamy, thinking that would help, but that he is still angry.” I had not thought Alex was still angry when he made the statement, until you mentioned it. Alex made the statement after he had lived polygamy for a while; so why was he still angry? In essence he bought himself more problems, as he did not address the root problem.
You further stated, “I, like Donald who responded, am one of the readers who has never believed that Alex’s choice to adopt a polygamous lifestyle had anything to do with you”. That’s an interesting point. I still keep going back and forth with myself about this one. I try not to blame myself and accept it as fate that it was “written”, but occasionally go back to – it was my fault. Ego is a powerful thing. I try to make it about me when it actually wasn’t. My wali/guardian/friend has always insisted that Alex adopting a polygamous life had nothing to do with me.
Judith, my intention was to write about how this Ramadan was better than last. I will make an effort to write soon about the most important steps I took this years that made this Ramadan refreshing compared to last Ramadan. Thank you for your suggestion
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
best,
Ana
September 10th, 2010 on 8:41 AM
Eid Karim Mubarak dear Muslims and guests. To the point! Dear Muslimahs. If you’re wondering if you’re husbands decision or desire to practice polygamy has anything to do with you personally? The answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. It starts in his nature. Remember, there’s a reason men by nature can easily accomedate(so to speak)many women at one time. He needs this nature to take on the responsibility of caring for many women and children. Yes. What Allah swt does is put things where they should be. He puts purity(meaning allowing the man to exercise his nature, without causing problems)on the business of relations with women. Allah knows and knew there would always be more women in any society in normal circumstances then men. He made a remedy for that. He also knew that women have a rebellious nature(I’m sure that will cause sparks)and so the whole situation is a trial for men and women. As everything in this life is. You women see things through the prism(prison)of emotionals. Men through the prism of logic normally. Except those sissified types that try to take womens emotional positions because they think that is the way to ingratiate themselves to women. But it’s usually false. Even if you were the so-called perfect woman, many men would still have the desire to be with other women. That would have nothing to do with you. But other women, that complain to much, or do other things that make their men unattracted to them,that would have something to do with them. One of the biggest turn offs to a man is dis-repect. Remember men have big egos. A wise woman will know not to trample her mans ego and treat it like an egg. She would make the man love her. It may not make him want to stop desiring other women;but you would have your place as he would respect you also. So your fear that the other womans pudding is better than yours or the other emotional fears women have that makes them hate polygamy wouldn’t be a factor. Women think its all physical with men but that’s not true. Even if the man’s not a King, you have to treat his ego as though he is. Women either don’t know this or don’t give a damn. Whichever! Why do you think women get smacked? The guys fault? Just a jerk? Sometime. But many times it’s the attitudes that women carry or display. So bottom line ladies sometimes it is you that drive your man to look for other women. He’s looking for certain qualities whether he knows it or not. If your not displaying those qualities, your turning him off unconciously. After marriage you don’t keep yourself up anymore. Because your not trying to catch anymore. So it’s complex. He nature is polygamous, because Allah swt wants him to be able to help all these women an children. But most men not knowing their own mission follow their own plan in this area and that’s the problem. If they follow Allah’s plan there will be less damage. We’re human so there will be problems,but at least if he has the intention of pleasing Allah swt he will hit the target or get close to hitting it. Without that target there are problems. So ladies your insecurity causes problems when you follow that thinking and make it reality when it may not be reality. Like, he’ll leave me, she may be prettier than me, her pudding may be better,etc. Make yourself a star in his cosmos by knowing men’s nature. If he’s normal and you show respect and honor, usually he’ll reciprocate. The sex is a reward to the man for taking on all that extra responsibility and headache. After all we always do things for rewards that’s also our nature. So some men would take on more women and children just out of their grace;but more will take them on with the reward(sex) as a benefit. I’m sure you understand. I left out much of what I wanted to say to clarify. Salaams
September 10th, 2010 on 6:26 PM
Light,
As Salaamu Alaikum & Eid Mubarak!
Your commentary on husbands and wives relationships was very enlightening and I think it will help a lot of sisters on the blog have a better understanding of the interworking of a marriage.
It was thought provoking. I’m especially thankful that you addressed first and foremost the issue that many Muslimahs have with self blame. I think many of us Muslimahs take our husbands “desire or decision” to take another wife personally. We need that assurance that it’s not entirely our fault. Not only are we hard on ourselves about why our husbands took other wives, but others (family, friends, co-worker, co-wives etc) are suspicious as to why, as well. For instance, my husband’s other wife said to me, “I guess your beauty couldn’t keep him in your bed” (I have to throw this in. I responded, “Well it kept him there for five years.” She never had him only to herself as his wife).
You said, “What Allah swt does is put things where they should be. He puts purity(meaning allowing the man to exercise his nature, without causing problems)on the business of relations with women.” At this I used to wonder, as well. How he could do it all. I was advised a number of times that Allah swt wouldn’t permit him to do something he wasn’t physically incapable of doing, or incapable of in general. Allah swt does not burden us with a burden we cannot bear. We put the additional burden on ourselves by not following the dictates of Islam. We women being emotional creature, at times it becomes difficult to hold onto what we’re advised, if I may say so.
You clarified nicely how men are inclined to be with more than one woman, regardless of how near perfect she may be. You said a woman, however, could be a turnoff to her husband, and make herself unattractive by complaining etc, but that being a turnoff itself was not the determining factor for him to take another wife. I think what you said is very important because we women need to take a look at ourselves and ask, not for the sake of bettering our relations with our husbands, but for our faith, what am I doing that is not becoming of a Muslim with good moral character? For example, do I complain excessively, which shows displeasure with Allah’s swt decision? Whether I was sexually fulfilling my husband’s needs or not, if Allah had determined my husband would take another wife, it would have happened, regardless. Becoming polygamous opened my eyes and made me examine myself. Did I trample on my husband as though he was an “egg” (I like that – an “egg”)? It’s not solely that I should not belittle, demean or degrade my husband because of his husband status, but because I should not do those things to ANYONE, as they are not becoming of a Muslim with good moral character.
I agree with you when you spoke of women having a rebellious nature – a nature given to them by Allah swt. Allah swt gave men the punishment for wives that get out of hand. I think my Wali was trying to explain to my husband how women can get out of hand (please see a previous post, “Wali intervenes in polygamous marriage” – http://polygamy411.com/?p=1816 . Perhaps you clarified the point my wali was trying to make to my husband.
I agree there are many marriages in which woman lets themselves go, so to speak, making themselves less attractive or not appealing to their husbands anymore. What would you say about women that have many children, which affects her appearance, along with the lack of time they have to devote to pampering themselves?
You spoke volume in saying, “So it’s complex. He nature is polygamous, because Allah swt wants him to be able to help all these women and children. But most men not knowing their own mission follow their own plan in this area and that’s the problem. If they follow Allah’s plan there will be less damage. We’re human so there will be problems,but at least if he has the intention of pleasing Allah swt he will hit the target or get close to hitting it. Without that target there are problems.”
Light, you said you left out much of what you wanted to say. I think we all would be interested in hearing more from you. I know I would.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
September 12th, 2010 on 5:29 AM
Eid Karim Mubarak dear Muslims and guests. To the point! It really is as simple as your man having good intentions(meaning well), and having Allah’s pleasure in mind not just his pleasure when he pursues polygamy. If he’s just out on a brothel tour he’s doomed to fail. That is the punishment. I’m not saying he can’t have many women at one time. But we’re not trying to be playas, or macks or pimps. Allah puts purity on the thing. That’s the difference. So there should be a big difference when you see the muslim man with more than one woman versus the average Joe. He should be exemplary. I’ve seen this with my own eyes. If the man-and I’m focusing on him first because he’s the leader and has to set the tone for the family-doesn’t have proper intentions he will be following his jinn(lower self)and he will fail and cause alot of damage. For non-Muslims I don’t know what to tell them, but for Muslims Allah swt first. Part of the weakness of the women in this is that they begin to cat fight. It’s unnecessary. I again have to focus on the men. Set the climate or tone and as the leader you have to know the women are emotional. You are the one responsible for making sure everyone has the right perspective(knowledge)in the situation. So first the man has to have self discipline. He can’t be out only for his pleasure. Most women believe that men only do it for the sex and can’t possible have any other motive. They can. Depends on the man. What was Prophet Mohammed’s intention when he had nine wives and five right hand possessions? Men are capable of following the higher self. If they don’t they fail. If it’s not him and it’s one of his wives he has to get here out of the family. He has to maintain peace. There are many polygamous families that have no problems;but there are others that have many. It starts with the man. Dear Muslimahs, know that it’s not just about beauty. It’s also about internal qualities. You could be an unattractive woman to the eye;but if you have the right qualities your man will love you crazy. Doesn’t matter about beauty only. I had a wive who was so attractive other women were praising her beauty in the hospital delivery room. I heard them and they didn’t know I was the father. But her character was lacking because of all the focus on the outside. She got spoiled if you know what mean. As-salaamu-alaikum
September 12th, 2010 on 7:02 AM
Eid Karim Mubarak. Dear Muslimahs! You have an obligation to keep yourself up. Period. Ride a bike, jog, walk with you children, or girlfriends, or husband. Do something on a regular basis to maintain your health and form. I can only speak for myself in taste;but flesh on a woman is the business. Not grotesque, or unshapely. Well proportioned. A woman should be a comfort like a pillow, not a stone, or rock ,or bone. I think the same can be said for the man. We should keep ourselves healthy. Baraka lah fiq
September 12th, 2010 on 9:48 AM
Hi Ana. I just stopped by to say hello… Must have known someone mentioned my name.
I can’t remember what thread Judith is referring too, or what I said back then, but I do think it would be very self-defeating to blame yourself for what Alex did. You and Alex are jointly responsible for the relationship you create, since it is affected by both your actions. But at the end of the day, polygamy was Alex’s action, not yours.
I note that polygamous men often claim it as their right, since men are appointed by God as leaders in the family. Well, that argument goes right out the window if that same man blames his wife for his own behaviour. Which is it? Is the husband a responsible leader, or is he swayed every which way by the behaviour of his wife/wives? Perhaps many men like to have it both ways — play the leadership card when it gives them what they want, but blame the wife when things don’t work out like they had hoped. Convenient huh!
For anyone new to Ana’s blog, I need to point out that I am not opposed to polygamous marriage if love is the foundation. I just have a hard time seeing the love when a man forces his first wife into it against her will, or keeps it a secret from her (as some have done).
September 12th, 2010 on 1:13 PM
Light, Eid Kareem Mubarak!
Based on what you’ve said I think what we women must do is prioritize, fit time in to do some type of exercise or engage in some type of activity that will help us stay fit and healthy. For some it may mean spending less time with the TV or friends etc. to allow time for a workout, even if for only ten minutes. (I’m not a fan of TV, but find myself at the computer far too long and next thing I know, it’s too late to exercise.) I’m glad you brought up the topic of women’s appearances. Appearance is very important to most men. If her appearance is what attracted him and then she becomes unrecognizable as the woman he married
, that could present a problem.
Light, what position do you take regarding Muslim men having all their wives living in one home? One commentator had said it’s OK, as the wives of Prophet Muhammad pbuh lived in apartments that were very small and attached, which would be the equivalent of a home with separate rooms. This particular commentator had two wives and one in waiting, as well. I believed he rationalized how he could have them all living together for his convenience. May Allah forgive me, if I’m wrong. What’s your position regarding their accommodations?
Light, what’s your thoughts about co-wives/sister-wives, or whatever anyone calls them (I dislike the word co-wives) interacting with one another? Do you think it’s incumbent on the wives to communicate with one another or is it OK for them to lead their own separate lives with their husbands without communicating with the other wife/wives? Is it their option? Does it matter whether they communicate with one another or not?
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
September 12th, 2010 on 2:00 PM
Hi there, Donald! You’re baaaaack. I was wondering where you were. It seems like a reunion. I always feel Judith is near, always ready to interject a profound comment here or there; our U235 (hopeful polygamy will be an option for him one day) just returned, and here you are. We’re just missing CM. I know you’re out there CM, giving us the silent treatment. So, Donald, the dapper duck, I’m hoping all is good with you and your family.
I’m beginning to accept that it’s not my fault Alex engaged in polygamy. Sometimes I relapse though and begin to retrospect about things I’ve done to contribute to it. But, then I’m reminded by all of you out there that it wasn’t really about ME, ME, ME. Was that my ego getting in the way, Judith? So, I need to stop the PITY PARTY when it begins.
Donald, you mentioned love is needed as the foundation in a polygamous marriage. Love is the key. I think love of God is first and foremost. If we love God, we try our utmost to please and obey Him. In doing so, we show compassion and mercy to others. Compassion and mercy is needed in a polygamous marriage, and all marriages for that matter. After all, isn’t God a Compassionate and Merciful God? Then how could men not show compassion and mercy to those close to them, their wives (fragile and delicate creatures that God created).
I’m glad you stopped in to say hello, Donald
Why not stay a while, if you can?
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
September 12th, 2010 on 9:06 PM
Yes Ana, I am still here – quietly observing!
I also have some questions for Light.
Light, do you have children? If so – how does living polygamy affect you as a father and your relationship with your children? Do you think polygamy has a negative or positive (or both) effect on children? Would you want your daughters to be in polygamous marriages? What counsel would you give to your sons if they wanted to have polygamous marriages?
September 13th, 2010 on 7:41 AM
Bismi-lah hir rahman nir rahim. Dear muslimahs,having all wives in one home or separate homes is all halal, though many muslims disagree. The Prophet peace be upon the Him didn’t really have separate houses for his wives. You might call them apartments. We have to factor in that was over one thousand years ago and the material world has advanced greatly. Obviously its better for the wives to be able to act as loving sister muslimahs but sometime that isn’t reality. But for peaces sake if living apart keeps peace and removes fitna, do what keeps peace. I have my wives in separate locations. I know I said I don’t discuss my personal situation but I meant details. The principles are whats important. Yes I have children and I have girls. I have no problem with my daughters living in polygamy if the man is qualified. Polygamy has a negative or positive effect on chldren depending on what the experience of negative or positive. More later ladies I’m rushing. Salaams
September 13th, 2010 on 7:41 AM
Bismi-lah hir rahman nir rahim. Dear muslimahs,having all wives in one home or separate homes is all halal, though many muslims disagree. The Prophet peace be upon the Him didn’t really have separate houses for his wives. You might call them apartments. We have to factor in that was over one thousand years ago and the material world has advanced greatly. Obviously its better for the wives to be able to act as loving sister muslimahs but sometime that isn’t reality. But for peaces sake if living apart keeps peace and removes fitna, do what keeps peace. I have my wives in separate locations. I know I said I don’t discuss my personal situation but I meant details. The principles are whats important. Yes I have children and I have girls. I have no problem with my daughters living in polygamy if the man is qualified. Polygamy has a negative or positive effect on chldren depending on what they experience of negative or positive. More later ladies I’m rushing. Salaams
September 13th, 2010 on 8:16 AM
Ana, you said: ‘Love is the key. I think love of God is first and foremost. If we love God, we try our utmost to please and obey Him. In doing so, we show compassion and mercy to others. Compassion and mercy is needed in a polygamous marriage, and all marriages for that matter. After all, isn’t God a Compassionate and Merciful God? Then how could men not show compassion and mercy to those close to them, their wives (fragile and delicate creatures that God created).’
AMEN! I could not have said it any better Ana. I’m trying to make sure God is first in my heart, and that is certainly the key. When I can say to God ‘I love you’, and when those words flow not from my head but from my heart, it is true worship. It’s amazing, but in that state, all my fears, frustrations and hurts seem to melt away. I suppose it’s really an experience of God’s love. His love fills us, heals us, and then overflows in expressions of love back to Him, and to other people whom he places on our hearts.
Yeah, it’s great to see familiar faces like Judith and CM (both of whom I respect and enjoy reading). Not sure if I’ll get too deep into the conversations again. I’m spending less time on Internet forums and blogs than I used to, and for me I think that’s been good. Mostly I just wanted to say hi. If ever you’re wondering how I am or want to say hi, I’m only an email away.
Love
Don
September 13th, 2010 on 9:49 AM
Wow. When I saw CM and Donald on the same list of recent posters, I thought, ‘were these guys away at a conference or something, and the conference just ended?’
Then I read your post CM, which shows that your questions for Light go in the same direction as my own.
Light, I’ve read your fairly long theoretical discourses about what you believe women should do, and how they should live their lives. Now that the space has been given to you to do that, would you be willing to share something more specific about yourself with us, the readers? Thank you.
j
September 13th, 2010 on 11:03 AM
Bismi-lah. Dear Muslimahs. It’s preferable of course that the wives are on good terms and communicate as family members as a matter of adab(good manners). Unfortunately, most of us today find it too difficult to have this type of adab. I don’t find where it’s obligatory for the women to have relations, but? If peace can only be maintained with them dealing exclusively with their husband and children my-sha-lah. Allah swt knows. Muslims are not to be astranged from each other for more than three days. The best one is the one that gives the greetings first. So these women will have to answer to Allah swt in the end. Most woman today and many men as well believe it’s fard(obligatory)for a man to have a separate house for each wife;but I respectfully disagree. As you mentioned the Prophet’s wives peace be upon the Mothers of the Believers had what amounted to separate apartments. We have to factor in that the material world has advanced tremendously in 1400 plus years. But remember, the Prophet SAW almost divorced all his wives for requesting more material. This a key dear sisters as it’s left in revelation for all times. This was very serious. Especially in the times of materialism that we live in. You women, be careful with your material demands and claiming the man MUST provide each a separate residence, etc. There is another warning in hadith about women in relation to their husbands and favors recieved. Later. So all of these scenarios are halal. Your wife can even give up her time and wealth rights if she cares to for the sake of making things easier on the man specifically, but the family in general. Maybe she has her own wealth and doesn’t need his. Many scenarios exist. There are as many structures possible as are stars in the heavens for we’re all different and Allah swt makes things easy not hard.I had a shaykh that I respect who has a hugh house in Morocco tell me women have to have their own house. But in his country there are so many needy women and he has enough space for four easily albeit in one house. Two story house. Prophet’s priority was helping women and children as the man in society.
I do have many children and I have no problem with my daughters being in polygamy if the man is qualified. As far as it having a positive or negative effect on children it depends on what their experience is in polygamy. Negative they will be negative. Positive they will be positive as a rule. I would and do tell my sons to put Allah swt All mighty first. Meaning follow the sharia and sunnah. Focus on doing justice and carrying your responsibility. Meaning paying the bills keeping them maintained and protected. Then of course you must have the power and knowledge on how to cool women’s eyes. How to upgrade them and maintain the upgrade. My daughters are little women and think like women, and in general women are not so accepting of polygamy though their natures can accommedate it. I think it makes men cautious about getting involved in the situation. Usually only confident men on the positive side, or men that have weaknesses have an interest in polygamy. I know many men that claim they aren’t interested in polygamy. I believe them. Some are just scared. If all my wives could live under one roof that would be ideal for many reasons. But, that is rare, and you can’t not fulfill your mission because some women don’t like it. If you follow your wife in some things you will do big damage. To end remember Allah swt says in Qu’ran one is best if you only knew. As-salaamu-alaikum
September 13th, 2010 on 12:47 PM
Bismi-lah. J, specific probably not, but ask anyway and if I can accommedate you I will. Whats important are the principles not me specifically. I have to say I wouldn’t classify my posts as theoretical as most of what I write is from experience. You have your name as Judith, are you a muslimah? The dynamics of male female relations don’t depend on me. They are what they are. These are not my opinions only of what women should do, most is from our religion, others are from experience. As-salaamu-alaikum
September 13th, 2010 on 1:39 PM
Light,
Thank you for your response.
j
September 14th, 2010 on 5:09 AM
Light,
As Salaamu Alaikum! I very much appreciate your responses. I find them very helpful, expecially the explanation you gave, regarding the children about the negative or positive affect polygamy has on them. It’s logical that how polygamy affects a child would depend on his/her upbringing in it. It’s the same with any family whether monogamous or polygamous.
Everyone should keep in mind that Allah has made polygamy permissible. Do people not think that Allah considered children when He permitted polygamy? After all, Allah created everything in the heavens and the earth. Children experience trials and tests, as do adults. What child has the ideal life? We could IMAGINE what an ideal life would be and strive for it, only. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was an orphan.
This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.
September 14th, 2010 on 6:36 AM
Assalamu Alaikum Lynn.
Jazaakallah Lynn for sharing your story, i had a good laugh as my ex-husband had married an air hostess so i guess the cliche-ness of it all just seemed funny to me.
I can definitely understand what you’re going through, the air hostess part was the last part of the polygamy that i came to find out about and that really was the nail in the coffin, i just reached a point where i realized how pathetic he was and i decided that if the kids and my parents would not even look at him and we could not feel like a family then there was no point in my staying. If it is therapeutic for you Lynn, then I hope you keep commenting
Assalamu Alaikum Marcel.
We haven’t heard from you lately! Sometimes i get so frustrated when i come here as the “who commented” box only holds so many names and i never know if perhaps i missed you!
It’s heartbreaking to see children so young having to live on their own because of what their parents have done. If it is not too much trouble i would like to know how you are coping, who takes care of you etc, i’ve noticed that you never speak in great detail of your “situation” so i figured i’d ask!! I tried adding you on facebook but i think you rejected me?? lol
September 16th, 2010 on 12:19 PM
Salaam Alaikum
With reference to wives all living together or having some of interaction, then I believe that should be up to the first wife to make the decision. She should not be made to feel guilty if she CHOOSES not to have anything to do with her, she should not have to give up her home in order to share it with another woman (afterall it was her safe, personal abode to start with, why should she make way for someone else when it wasn’t her choice?)
Light you said “Your wife can even give up her time and wealth rights if she cares to for the sake of making things easier on the man specifically, but the family in general”. What about the husband making things easier for his wife? Is it all about the husband, whatever suits the husband, whatever makes it easier for him? The first wife suffers tremendously (may ALLAH reward her) when she is faced with polygamy so surely, the husband should seek to make this transition easier for her, even if it means that he has to be extra patient, and forego some of his desires or expectations.
Sharing a home is not obligatory in Islam, in fact it is the Sharia right to provide a wife with her own house/home. When a husband marries another wife the first wife suffers great distress which is expected, thus Allah has set out rules to reduce such feelings one of which is the right of the wife to have separate accommodation. She is not being defiant, just because she wishes not to have any communication with the other, it does not mean she has less adab than any other woman. It is her way of coping, her way of adjusting to the situation.
From my own personal experience I choose to have no interaction or communication with no.2 full stop! I don’t wish to see her or talk to her ever. As we live in different countries that makes it easier, however, during Ramdhan I met her for the first time, coincidently, it wasn’t planned, I just happened to be in the country in which she lives. I was courteous to the bare minimum, meaning I simply exchanged salaam and never said another word to her. I chose not too, not my husband, not her or anyone else could persuade me otherwise. My husband has on many occasions in the past tried to get me talk to her on the phone, ‘try and be friends with her’ he would say but I have refused. Apparantly she wants to be friends with me blah blah, that does’nt mean I have to oblige to their wants does it? After all I am not going against Allah’s will, it is not mentioned that wives are obliged to communicate or be friends. SubhanAllah, how can we emulate to be the Prophet (pbuh) or his wives, it is impossible, so we must stop trying to justify our actions because it is the way of the Prophet (pbuh), or his wives managed it, we are no where near such a magnificent capability.
Light you said
“obviously its better for the wives to be able to act as loving sister muslimahs but sometime that isn’t reality. But for peaces sake if living apart keeps peace and removes fitna, do what keeps peace”. That is exactly what I am doing because if you put me and her together there would be fireworks and not just from me! For the first time I got a sneeky peek of no.2 and from her mannerisms it was obvious that she resented me. Without going into too much detail, she didn’t want me in her life just as much as I didn’t want her, the fact that she acted like she did was an act for the sake of my husband, “look I am trying, but she doesn’t want to” just to make me look like I am the defiant one, the one with no manners or adab, the one with less Deen. But I refuse to be goated into something that I do not want to do simply to please two people who seem to be doing things to please themselves.
As for children, they do suffer no matter what way you go about it. I witnessed my child wondering where their father was when it was no.2′s nights, and watched as they waited for them to come and take them out the next day only to be faced with a phone call that they weren’t coming cos ‘something come up’. Yeah right, my child is not stupid, they knew that they were being sidelined and they resented it.
I have no problem with siblings interacting (after all they are kin and share the same father), but that should be where it stops. I strongly disagree with children that go off with the father to sleep at the other wife’s house, the kids should stay with their mother. Even vacations etc, the kids should stay with the mother always, until they are at a mature age to decide for themselves. When wives send their children with their father to the other house to stay is just silly, and it serves no purpose apart from causing more animosity; whichever wife does that knows it.
much salaam
September 16th, 2010 on 2:08 PM
Hello Huda. It’s been awhile. I always enjoy reading your posts, because you really give a first hand feel for your reality. I value your willingness, and do not take it for granted. I don’t say too much about myself, because I’m not living a polygamous life, and I don’t want to throw the conversation off course. But I try to connect with others in the areas where I feel our experiences overlap.
September 16th, 2010 on 4:46 PM
Bismi-lah. Huda, I feel your pain right through the computer. Bottom line is, you have to realize your operating from a base of emotional pain(hurt
feelings).It’s understandable and not necessarily a violation of sharia;but it is not the target my dear. I know, easy for me to talk. For the record I didn’t say anything about whatever is easy for the husband and it’s all about the husband. That is your interpretation. Both have rights and responsibilities. Obviously you’re what you call a first wife, because you think she should make the decision about whether to communicate with another wife or not. Let’s ask the question dear muslimah. Is that justice? That’s why I don’t like the language of giving wives numbers. They seem to infer from that seniority or more rights or power in the situation and it’s not so. All wives have the same rights and responsibilities regardless of marriage order. Let’s look a a hypothetical situation that isn’t far removed from reality. A woman who’s husband went to Hajj or Umrah, and upon attempting to return to his family had a tragic accident and left this world. She has four children. This is exactly the type of woman the Prophet peace be upon him and his companions used to take as a trust to help the situation. Now adays most Muslim men run from this kind of woman and situation. I digress. Anyway, should this muslimah who has just suffered a calamity, be met with a co-wife that is unsympathetic and aloof? Don’t think I’m accusing anyone. This is just an example. So every situation is different. You may have some legitimite reason to avoid a co-wive, Allah swt is the judge. But I’d like to suggest to you that emotions when stirred can cloud the vision. So be careful in responding only with emotions and not thinking through the situation and asking yourself questions.I actually commend you on knowing yourself and staying away from someone to keep peace. Again, the Mothers of the Believers, Allah swt be pleased with them had what would be considered separate apartments or rooms in the house. They didn’t have what could be classified as separate houses and I don’t find in the Sharia where each wife has to have a separate residence. What I do find is that they have to have shelter, food, clothing, and guidance toward Jannah according to the man’s means. I understand the feelins of a woman thinking she’s giving up her home, etc. Remember the early muslims in Madinah? Allowing and inviting the muslim emigrants from Mecca to live in their homes? Some companions even offered up half their wealth and many times even wives. Now we see why they were so blessed and successful.
SubhanAllah, how can we emulate to be the Prophet (pbuh) or his wives, it is impossible, so we must stop trying to justify our actions because it is the way of the Prophet (pbuh), or his wives managed it, we are no where near such a magnificent capability. This is a quote from you.
I think we make excuses and put cracks in our foundation when we say that the Prophet and his wives, or early muslims behavior is impossible to emulate. Why did Allah swt give us his example if it’s impossible to emulate? Whether it is or not, they are the examples and we must try our best. The Prophet’s SAW wives did have jealousy so they responded humanly like other women. We have Sharia on whether the children should be with their mother or father. We should look to see what Allah swt says in Qu’ran or if there’s something in the established sunnah or from the recognized scholars before we make our own decisions. We can cause problems. Example, in a divorce unlike the Western world, the children go to the father at seven years old. They don’t wait until maturity. That is sunni law. Shia say they go to the father at two. So you’re making up your own religion unknowingly and that makes problems. Consult the holy sources. I pray Allah swt makes it easy for you. We do have high standards but what else would you expect from the All Mighty? So Muslims and Muslimahs should want for there brothers what they would want for themselves. And that includes Muslimahs. Allah swt guide us all. Amin
September 16th, 2010 on 6:36 PM
Salaam Alaikum Light
Thank you for your comments. I have a few points I would like to comment on.
You said;
“A woman who’s husband went to Hajj or Umrah, and upon attempting to return to his family had a tragic accident and left this world. She has four children. This is exactly the type of woman the Prophet peace be upon him and his companions used to take as a trust to help the situation. Now adays most Muslim men run from this kind of woman and situation”.
You have hit the nail on the head Light. If men today emulated such noble actions as our beloved Prophet (pbuh) then I don’t think emotions would be as rife and hostile amongst us first wives. Our Prophet (pbuh) did indeed marry women who were in need of support and security such as widows, older women, divorcees. The only wife who was a young virgin was Aisha. Unfortunately nowadays, men who engage in polygamy (particulalry in the middle east) are no way interested in a woman with kids, or divorced, they want a virgin bride. How is that helping those destitute women? To me they are not trying to do acts of worship or charity, it is for their own desires (before you attack me, I know it is permitted and I accept that, I am just stating a fact).
With regards to children staying with their father or mother, I was not referring to divorce, I was referring to a polygamous marriage. I am not making up my own religion, I am well aware that the father has the right to his child at 7 years old if he and the mother are divorced. If you re-read my post I was implying (it might have not have been obvious to you) when wives play games and send children with their father to sleep at the other wife’s home just to annoy and disturb the other wife’s evening. I witnessed it first hand, unfortunately for her it backfired because I wholeheartedly welcomed it and since that night it never happened again, simply because it never achieved the reaction she intended it to receive. That is why I said the children should stay with mother when the father is away, simply to avoid conflict.
I may respond with emotions Light, but these emotions come from first hand experiences, and a woman’s experience is completely different to a man’s. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus springs to mind….
much salaam
September 17th, 2010 on 2:55 PM
Bismi-lah. I’m not arguing or disagreeing with your experience. You experience what you experience. I actually agree with you that many men have lost the focus on polygamy, and as I’ve stated in a previous post when they lose the focus on Allah’s pleasure they cause damage. The intent isn’t in my opinion correct. So I am seeing the same Muslim world that you are seeing. The problem isn’t polygamy, it’s the purity of intention. There are scores of women in most Muslim countries that are beautiful(spiritually, healthy, etc.)that don’t want to join the international orgy going on. So they sit and wait past the expiration date. Can’t find worthy men to give themselves too. So they either fornicate, wait, or give up. I know polygamy is not easy,but neither is monogamy and many think that is their answer. I truly believe, if more Muslimahs would accept polygamy they would be married already. Many won’t accept it and that’s their right. In the meantime, they suffer, the men suffer, and the whole society suffers. I believe we’re living in the world today described by the Prophet SAW when he said in the last days, you would see fifty women needing to be looked after by one man. That’s how bad it is. We know he can’t take fifty;but that’s how bad it is. If you want to keep your honor, and not follow weakness it’s definitely not easy. For men or women. So Huda, I’m finding women in their late 30′s to 40′s that won’t accept polygamy. Some even with children and overweight, etc. The only reason they are not married is because they won’t accept polygamy and that is a fault. Expectations too high. Many women want a house, car, money, the works and they’re just getting married. That is obscene. So it’s not just men it’s women as well. Both have lost the proper focus. I even know women that have married non-muslim men for material and security. I’m just sharing some observations with you that are related to polygamy, and society, and family life. The reason I’m highlighting this is when men and women aren’t married they are a fitna(trial)in society. That’s why the Prophet stressed young people rushing to get married. Huda, I still think it’s better for men to take more wives,even for physical reasons than to fornicate or break the law. At least if he has weaknesses he’s keeping them within the law. If he was married and touched other women it would be much worst for all involved. Sounds like you have some issues with the co-wife; but know that it’s to be expected. I’m sure Allah swt will bless you with the strength and wisdom to handle it. Muslimah try not to be over emotional. Try to rise above and don’t let things get to you(secretly I’m talking to myself also), life is a trail so may Allah swt make it easy for you, and give you the vision you need to stay successful in this life and the next. Amin
September 17th, 2010 on 9:54 PM
salaam
thank you so much Huda i learnt more reading your posts and to light too, thanks for sharing.
Huda, like you i will not allow my kids to get anywhere near Ms. P and i have made it clear to my husband. They hate Ms. P for taking their fathers and making me sad. My kids are matured and they have seen and heard everything. We manage to make ourselves happy when he is away. I dont have to influence them in any way. I wish i can talk to you offline Huda, I really do
take care. hugs.
September 20th, 2010 on 5:58 AM
Assalaamu ‘alaikum
Light! Bro (you’re a bro right?)! The people are calling for you to post on the “A Case Study” thread