Marry a Pakistani Man? Beware! – Part 1

polygamy 411Many Pakistani men come to the United States or the United Kingdom in search of a better life. To get it, some seek out women in said countries for marriage. I will use the word “foreign” when I speak of the women or wives from the U.S. and the U.K. The Pakistani men seem kind, sweet, charming and debonair. Little do some foreign women know that these men have snares. A foreign wife could find herself spun in a web of deception. Some Pakistani men are deceitful. Women especially from the United States and the United Kingdom should beware when it comes to marrying Pakistani men.

Polygamy 411 is a blog about polygamy. The blog has existed for over five years. A large percentage of our commentators from the U.S or U.K. married Pakistani men. We have learned that when some of these Pakistani men marry foreign women, the men do not let these women know they already have wives and probably children in Pakistan. They are already married and their other marriage to the foreign women makes these Pakistani men polygamous. Sometimes these men never take the foreign wife to Pakistan to meet their family, relatives and friends there. Many times those people in Pakistan never know of the wife in the U.S. or the U.K. The foreign wife becomes a “secret wife.” More often than not, the Pakistani man is married to his first cousin in Pakistan. They had an “arranged marriage.”

A foreign woman who considers a Pakistani man for marriage should beware that he may one day say he must go back to Pakistan to marry his first cousin as instructed by his mother. He gives the foreign wife excuses as to why he cannot defy his mother. The reason is cultural, but he may allude that it has to do with Islam when it does not. When the foreign wife learns of the arranged marriage between her husband and his first cousin, she becomes distraught. What should she do? She has already become emotionally invested, and has established a life with this man. She is left with a huge dilemma, which is extremely difficult and painful to resolve.

Why do these Pakistani men do this to foreign women? Many do it to get citizenship/naturalization/Immigration status in the U.S. or U.K. They want a better life for themselves and their families back home in Pakistan. Some actually come to fall in love with the foreign women whom they marry. Others do not. They simply get the immigration status they sought, and then divorce the foreign women.

Any foreign woman who marries a Pakistani male should beware of the lies, deceit, and betrayal that may await them. A foreign woman should investigate thoroughly the Pakistani man she intends to marry. She should make sure she meet his family, relatives and friends in Pakistan. She should ask him if he is already married or if his family has arranged a marriage for him to take place in the future. She should secure her assets, for instance, keep her funds separate from his, or have a prenuptial agreement. Most importantly, she should act using intellect and not emotions. These men are very suave and convincing.

I in no way assert that every Pakistani man is as I described above. I simply want you to note that based on information I have received on this blog, I have learned there are very many Pakistani men who have done all that I indicated above. We all know nothing is absolute except our Creator. I simply urge all women to beware when they consider a marriage to a Pakistani Man.

The problem is so serious that the Muslim minister Baroness Warsi has spoken on it. Click link below to read the article:

For more comments on “Marry a Pakistani Man? Beware!” see Part 2: http://www.polygamy411.com/marry-a-pakistani-manbeware-part-2/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9275179/Some-Pakistani-men-see-white-women-as-fair-game-says-Baroness-Warsi.html

To learn more about the Baroness Warsi visit: http://www.sayeedawarsi.com/about/

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792 Comments

  • ana

    July 9, 2014

    We have reached nearly 800 comments on this thread. I kindly ask everyone to continue their discussion on the continuation thread, which is, “Marry a Pakistani Man? Beware! – Part 2 http://www.polygamy411.com/marry-a-pakistani-manbeware-part-2/

    Thank you for your cooperation and support.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • coco

    July 9, 2014

    @Gail

    Oh Gail I feel overwhelmed reading your message thought I should throw in a few words. I will start by saying that my father studied in Europe with like 10 of his friends from Pakistan. 8 out of the 10 married Britishers Canadians or French woman so basically a “gori” I’m sure your familiar with the term. My mums best friends were these amazing white woman some converted while others continued to follow their faith. They all to date say what in the world were we thinking when we chose to marry these losers with charisma you all are not alone surprise I can’t imagine the pain you endure when you go back to think of the betrayal sad you’ve got some weight on your shoulders sista. It’s not sad and cheesy your doing whatever it takes to be in peace. But I would advise you maybe joining a book club or some group heck even an art class to get your mind off things time to time. Since I visit Pakistan so often YESSSSSS it’s so annoying but they do tend to act like they’re the only one with a brain out there. They actually argue with me on matters regarding western culture or politics and it’s like HELLO! I’ve been raised there don’t tell me how it is while your talking based on media and the world wide web. *shaking my head* and about you not being able to go back to Pakistan cuz your husband says you’ve mistreated him pshhhhhhht! they take looking your husband in the eye with dislike as disrespect at times while their own can run mouth like it ain’t nobody’s business

    I don’t know if this will do you any good but when he does give you the silent treatment just try to not react. Maybe he gives you the silent treatment to make you fight with him. It’s gracious of you to be raising his children from his first wife. It’s commendable in our eyes and in the eyes of Allah. As they say it can’t rain all the time, the sun will come out and then again the rain and here comes the sun right back at ya nothing is permanent neither happiness nor sorrow. When your down just remember the sun will be out soon hang in there love happy regarding Covered’s situation from what I perceive the only reason her experience is good with a “Pakistani” man is because her husband is a God fearing man and May Allah keep him that way. He is a true Muslim and understands the rights of a woman and wife in Islam while most of you got stuck with born Pakistani Muslims who don’t know wrong from right. How can they love you respect you completely if they don’t respect their own religion and culture. And Gail apples don’t fall far from the tree as my dad likes to say. Your husband like many Pakistani men aren’t available emotionally cuz it’s how they’re trained and saw their fathers act towards family growing up its a ugly cycle. I read a piece by some spiritualist I believe it was called “the law of detachment” worrying will give us nothing but premature wrinkles it’s easier said than done yes but I try to follow this. Leave it up to Allah/God don’t worry or think of the if ands & buts that only gonna bring in more negative thoughts. When you detach yourself from the outcome of a situation your taking all negativity out and positivity comes in and things fall in place. You gotta read it I’ll try to find the link as I can’t do justice to that beautifully written piece. Hang in there inshAllah YOU WILL BE JUST FINE happy <3

    @ashes

    My opinion is a bit contrasting from the others being born into a Pakistani family I will give you my insight. Yes he did lie to you and it was wrong but I truly think it was only cuz he was ashamed. My parents had a ugly marriage my mom was as selfless as one can get while my dad was as selfish as one can get true opposites lol But my sibling and myself felt embarrassment cuz as Ana says it is a stigma and you as a family unit get looked down upon sadly. Most of the time people don't wanna marry guy and especially a girl who comes from divorced/separated parents no matter how good they may be. I even thought that I wouldn't tell my future husband of their separation cuz Pakistani husbands and in laws tend to throw back your weak points at you when you come from a turbulent family. I'm not defending him but just saying that at least 95% of the reason he's hid it is probably embarrassment. I did give my guy just cliff note details of my troubled past after about a year or so but just a glimpse of how ugly it was its instilled in us to be ashamed and hide this fact that isn't haram in our religion.

  • Gail

    July 9, 2014

    wife of ghazanfar ali bhutta in us,
    Welcome to the group I am Gail also married to a Pakistani man from Rawalpindi.
    I also feel your anger as I I think all of us Pakistani foreign Pakistani wives are feeling.
    Listen to me my husband left his pregnant Pakistani wife and married me.Obviously I had no idea the child she was pregnant with was my husbands child and he walked out of that country leaving here there with a small baby.When I think of my life and his past actions I get angry from being betrayed.
    My husband also married me for immigration and our marriage has been a huge struggle.
    I also wanted to say my husband also seemed perfect and I thought I was so blessed to have found him but my happiness turned into a nightmare when I got my rose colored glasses kicked off and saw the ugly monster that stood before me and I have never been the same.
    I do not have and friends except for the girls on this blog.I know it sounds sad and cheesy but if I dared to take a friend maybe he might try to have sexual relations with her or worse yet what if she is married and he complains about her husband.
    Pakistani people act nice but they talk like everyone else in the world is an idiot except them.
    I also live in the joint family system as my inlaws live with us here in USA but strangely I am not welcome to go back to Pakistan after I showed my A$$ the last time I was there.My husband says I mistreated him.I am like whatever dude.
    My husband is also notorious to withhold sex and ignore me for days and days.Right now as I am typing this I am on ignore treatment.
    It normally happens about once every month or two.
    I wish I could say everything will work out nudge u with a smile and say hang in there it will get better but if I am being truthful the best I can say it is a roller coaster ride and u better hold on tight unless u fall out.
    I also have a 9 yr old half Pakistani/White American boy.At least I can say they make really cute mix babies.
    I have not had the problem of my child being mistreated by my husband or inlaws.Strangely my husbands family adores my son and he is my father inlaws favorite Grandchild out of them all and he has over 20 Grandchildren.
    So yeah I find it strange that your inlaws r not loving your baby.That is not normal and in my case I could care less if my inlaws paid even 1% attention to my son.My son is loyal to me and I am so thankful for my baby boy.
    I am also raising my husbands children from his first wife and that is not without is challenges there alone.I do feel my husband is using me for a sitter for the children to be frank but I don’t mind that so much as the children are ok.

    Covered,
    I am wondering if u have been married very long to your husband could u please let us know I think it helps to here that there are woman out there that are having positive lives with Pakistani men because I am so skeptical to be honest.I just wonder if u have not caught him yet in his own pack of lies and your rose colored glasses have not been knocked off yet.
    I really do feel it is like having onRose colored glasses and oh they look so handsome when u have your glasses on and u feel so excited and in love.It feels like u r the luckiest woman alive to have found this specimen of a man with all the best qualities just to wake up one day and see a beast laying beside u.It really does happen just that fast.
    U scramble around saying to yourself where the Hell is my GLASSES!!
    Then u find your glasses and put them back on in a hurry just to see that your glasses are forever broken.U try to fix them but it is useless.
    I sure hope u r right and u have a good one but honestly I have yet to see a Pakistani man that does not lie or cover up the truth to suit his own purpose.They r MASTER Manipulators and any woman that is going marry one better get ready to mentally tortured is my sincere thinking because they have to have control over your entire life.
    Again wish I were more positive.
    My life is not entirely horrible I have my kids and my husband does support us financially but emotionally he is not available 99.9% of the time.I really do live my life as a single woman and mom basically.
    I also want to say even though alot of us are struggling this blog is great for all of us Pakistani wives to share stories and not feel hopeless and give each other advises and suggestions on how to deal are Pakistani husbands.

    Ana,
    Did u ever dream when u wrote this Post it would generate so much response.I am just amazed and thankful for everyone finding this post and the blog and coming here to comment.I am very shocked to be honest.

    Ashes,
    I wanted to point out to you that normally this is what happens.The men are wonderful and charming and well to be frank exactly like your man.How u describe your man on the blog.
    I can pretty much tell what cycle a Pakistani foreign wife is in to be frank.
    They really turn on the charm and boy do they know how to work it.Lets face it Pakistani men have this Raw Animal sex appeal about them that comes through their charm it is kinda like where the woman gets the deer in the headlights look.
    U see other deer that r dead on the side of the road but u r helpless to do anything because u yourself are caught.You do not realize u are caught and think oh those poor deer thanks G.D that is not me until it is to late and u yourself are laying on the side of the road seeing other deer caught in the headlights u try to warn them but they r already caught and are helpless to run.Sounds drastic but it really like this for most of us.
    After we are hit laying there bleeding it comes in r brains to do damage control and try to save our kids/the next generation.

  • ashes

    July 9, 2014

    @wife of ghazanfar ali bhutta in us

    Welcome! I couldn’t imagine and can’t even find the right words to say how sorry I am this happened. I think your scenario is the worst kind because one gets blindsided. It would be different if there were warning signs here and there and you chose to ignore them, but for your husband to completely switch out of the blue…I couldn’t even imagine the pain it caused. sad Consider it a blessing he’s out of your life and your son’s -how awful would it be to have to share custody with a man like that. My heart truly hurts for for the situation you were put in, I hope by now you’re making progress on the road to recovery and look towards the future.

    @ Covered-
    I really enjoy hearing success stories, good for you guys. happy From what I hear and read about, it does seem good ones are like a needle in a haystack.

    Yes, most men just claim they are muslim but don’t follow the rules OR they cherry pick. My guy is a perfect example of a cherry picker. He was always religious and did everything right except for the fact that we’ve been DATING for over two years (we’ve had talks with the parents and we’re intending to get married but status quo, come on…winking I had a good chuckle at the start of this past Ramadan. Apparently this Ramadan I can no longer send him a hug or heart emoji in a text during daylight hours, which is a new one for us (It’s our 3rd Ramadan together). I don’t have any problem follow this new rule. But, again, I chuckle..you’d think someone that picky would be hardcore and follow every rule, but then here comes sunset and he wants to get together for dinner and greet me with a hug and kiss despite us not being married yet.

    How awful the men go “shopping for women” in revert classes. It’s making my head spin hearing about all these men hungry for green cards and will do anything to get it. I’d also have to agree about most men, at the end of the day, wanting a good stay at home wife from their own culture.

    Again, I’m really excited when those with positive relationships speak out -it’s so refreshing to hear. It’s important to learn of all the things to be cautious of, but it’s sooo nice to hear a positive story. Are you the same race as him? Or are you from the culture to begin with? One day, if you have the time, I’d love to hear how you met your husband, how you worked around cultural differences, how much, if any, you had to adapt to his norms and generally how you maintain a positive relationship and any tips you have. happy

  • ana

    July 9, 2014

    As Salaamu Alaikum & Hello to Everyone,

    It’s moocho late, 1:20 a.m. where I am. I had a busy day, I may as well say yesterday, and didn’t get to write in here. I TRY to briefly skim all posts before approving, and maybe am able to read some short ones.

    @wife of ghazanfar ali bhutta in us, Welcome!

    It’s some serious crapamola you got mixed up in. I can feel your anger in your writing. I could understand you being p!$$ed off.

    @covered, Welcome to you too.

    You both have joined an awesome group of people here and we look forward to chatting with you. Perhaps you’ll become a regular part of out blog family here, God willing. happy

    Insha Allah, I’ll get back with everyone as soon as I can.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Covered

    July 8, 2014

    What is broken with those men?

  • Covered

    July 8, 2014

    I am married to a Pakistani man of one wife(me). He is a total prize, but through our dawah work I have met a lot of other sisters who are/were married to devious, sneaky men. Very charming, flattering, tricky and will slice your neck if they could get away with it.

    I have spent time in Pakistan and did not see a lot of polygamy. It, along with divorce, seems frowned upon but I know that many men just go to the US and ignore their Paki family for a time or forever.

    My husband comes from a “good” family. He tells me of one relative in polygamy who has nothing but grief. They do all marry their cousins (or did) and many such marriages are not happy. but they weren’t really expecting a lot of happiness back in the day. Much of Pakistan is totally in survival mode from what I saw. I was in Sindh. Its very poor, generally.

    The green card thing-yep. To them, it is a survival mode thing. You do what you can for the folks that matter. I have a nephew, who I love dearly, who tried that! His american wife would have none of it and they divorced. He just remarried the pakistani wife that he really wanted(not a cousin-their family is pretty much over the mandatory cousin thing)

    Pakistani men are a lot less fascinated with white american women than say, Arab men are (sorry to stereotype). Most really want a Paki wife who is well educated but who really wants to stay home and raise impressive babies with her doctorate degree. OR they want her to work AND take care of the home too, while they sit on their cute brown butts. but I have worked with abused women and I am getting cynical. I know a lot who are in marriages that seem happy enough, but I often think I got the only one as I work in the community here (Gulf of Texas).

    Most Paki men I know are NOT religious. they may pray rotely, and many hold on to their culture like it is going out of style, while they start drinking, smoking and worse. They want the subservient wife, the paki food, the close family (ie wife stays home and never gets out) and they don’t bother with jummah or praying. But they are very identifiable as “Muslim”. some go to a revert/new Muslim class just to find a pretty young new revert wife. Literally go shopping there. I have had some guys approach me to find them a wife and upon inquiry, found out that they already have one and “cant” divorce them.

    I’m a bit burned out. Which is kind of nuts because I have the good guy. I visited his family, they were kind. He has no kids and spoils me, but I have seen too much. My eyes hurt

  • wife of ghazanfar ali bhutta in us

    July 8, 2014

    You are absolutely right about marrying Pakistani men. I have married one and as soon as he got his permanent green card he absolutely is not the person I married. He had abandoned me and my son (i don’t understand how they can just cut off their own children. In 2012 he started taking frequent trips to Pakistan alone. The last trip he didn’t even bother to call us from where he was and sure enough the SOB had gotten married there although still married to me. I do want to WARN US women, they are not worth it. In a heartbeat you will wake up next to a monster. I guessed it’s the upbringing. although my son is half Pakistani (sadly, I will make sure to raise a man who have values and self respect. Nothing matters to them except a green card and at whatever cost. They can just turn around look at you as if he never knew you. 15 yrs and you think you know them….think again.

  • ashes

    July 8, 2014

    @ Gail, I have a very strong feeling you’re spot on. I found his dad on Facebook. His profile was set to private, but it did show he lives in Rawalpindi -I think that’s where you said your husband is from. I looked it up on on google maps and you’re right… it’s just a hop skip and jump away from Islamabad. His dad used to be some high rank military general. I’m not shy and will be asking for the details in person -I want a face to face chat. As I keep saying, I’m just waiting for Ramadan to be over; it’s hard to have a serious discussion when we’re driving an hour each way to visit and then have only an hour together before he has to leave for prayers. We keep looking at our watches and it’d be hard to have a good serious conversation without feeling rushed. I will also be bringing up the sect question again. Gail, if you think of anything else that would be good to bring up in our conversation after Ramadan, let me know. I’d like to hit all the main bullets at once.

    @Ana – I also got the creeps that he JUST told me about about this. It gets weirder the more I recall conversations we’ve had long ago where he made it seem like they were together and even once showed me a pic of dad and mom together smiling. I even recall when I first started asking about his views on polygamy and he got HIGHLY upset. He said, and I quote, “Although polygamy is allowed and is better than cheating or divorcing a woman and leaving her helpless, everyone in my family looks down on those that become polygamous and put a wife through something like that. None of my family members believe in divorce or polygamy. Besides,… that polygamy site you go to that gets you scared, what do you expect? Everyone there lives polygamy but these ladies are in a pretty rare situation so don’t think it’s the norm. Also, they’ve been burned pretty bad so of course all their advice to you will be negative, don’t go there… if you have questions, ask me directly” and unquotehappy I don’t have a good memory, but I sure remember him saying all that.

    I could care less that his dad is more than likely practicing polygamy, I’ve learned a lot here and am pretty understanding -my heart still hurts for all the women that have pain from it and it’s a way hard thing to go through -but I understand it now. What’s bothering me is that he gave this huge long speech on how rare polygamy is/how his family is SO against it, when it’s looking like his VERY OWN DAD is practicing it. Either that or they are divorced and if that’s the case he even told me how much his family is against divorce. Let me say only God knows till we actually discuss it in detail.

    I will keep you ladies posted…

  • ana

    July 8, 2014

    ashes,

    When you said he didn’t let you know about his mother and father’s marital status until now, after two years, I got an eerie feeling about it. Something about it gave me the creeps. I think Gail is calling this one right.

    Divorce in Pakistan is TABOO. It’s a big NO, NO. People agree to stay married to avoid the stigma of a divorce even though they aren’t together, living as husband and wife. It’s what I’ve learned here on this blog about culture and divorce in some of these countries. It’s way sad, as it’s not Islam in the least. It totally culture. sigh

    Divorce is allowed in Islam. It’s not frowned upon. Allah in the Quran says He will provide for the parties of a divorce.

    The wives of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were causing him problems and Allah said He’d replace his wives with wives that were better, virgins and formerly married (non-virgins), if they didn’t get their act together. The story is in the Quran. One of Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) wives was a divorcee.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    July 7, 2014

    Ashes,
    Brace yourself but babe unless your soon to be father inlaw is divorced from your soon to be mother inlaw then that man is in a polygamous marriage I am 100% sure.
    Your inlaws being much older I just seriously seriously doubt they r divorced and he must be married to the other woman.This is why he did not tell u in the last 2 years u been together about his fathers situation understand.
    He is lying without technically lying this is classic pakistani behavior and what I mean by this is yes it is true his dad is not having sexual relations with his mother and he may be living with the other woman so he says it is not a polygamous marriage but is that the factual truth? NO the factual truth is what I said more than likely dad is married to both woman and living with second wife.Your soon to be mother inlaw is wife in name only to save her honor with her family and neighbors as it is the same as death for an older pakistani woman to get divorced.
    Ask him point blank like i described u then he will tell u then he will start cursing this blog and tell u to get the heck off this blog hahahah

  • ashes

    July 7, 2014

    @ Gail. No, it was just his mom and sister that flew over and I met in person face to face. All the times we’ve visited his mom on FaceTime, I always wondered why dad never popped up in the background to say hi and vice versa. The dad does know me and is supportive,kind, etc. My guy rarely talks about his dad or calls him. I think he feels burned bad and is so ashamed of what his dad did. My heart hurt a lot when he told me his dad leaving the mom caused her severe depression. sad

    I listened to his wording very carefully when I asked if they were living polygamy. He said, “No…because mom isn’t with him”. From this blog, I’ve come to learn that could mean lots of things. It could be taken at face value. It could mean perhaps they’re still married and the dad maybe sees her every so often, but doesn’t split time justly. It could mean he’s still legally married to her and supports her but just enjoys his other wife more (they already have a kid together) she’s just a financial obligation. Who knows.. Maybe the dad did try to force polygamy and he’s just afraid to explicitly say because he’s worried of my reaction.

    As far as I know now (and as it turns out, I know a lot less than I think) mom is by herself and doesn’t have anyone else in her life. He said mom still has a cordial relationship with his dad and last month when he went overseas to visit, his mom was in dad’s company for a few hours and was fine (So yes, I’m sure the dad lives nearby in Islamabad and yes, he has a kid so he’s remarried). To be honest, I could care less what happened, I’m not going to judge him for his dad’s actions. What bothers me is that he hasn’t bothered to tell me something as basic as his mom and dad are no longer together after 2 years dating with an intent to marry -come on, that’s kindergarten knowledge on a relationship timeline!

    When you said you were clueless about major things the first 8 years of your marriage, I did find that hard to believe. Ahh but now i just got a taste of it myself . Again, after Ramadan passes I’m looking forward to having good long talks.

    @Imran. Thanks for wishing me good luck! So far the relationship has been extremely positive besides this one glitch. I’d never bash if things ended badly. I’m under the belief that conversations should be had, but otherwise, everyone deserves a clean slate till their verbals or non-verbals prove otherwise. happy

  • Gail

    July 7, 2014

    Ashes,
    Are his mom and dad together when they visit??
    If so it makes me wonder if he is scared to tell u that his dad is Polygamous.Is he still with the other woman???Where is the other woman and her son???Yeah very interesting indeed good job girl for taking my advice I am proud of u!!I am a firm believer in knowing the truth.

  • Gail

    July 7, 2014

    Ashes,
    Yes Girl this is typical Pakistani male behavior of not opening up.
    Believe me when I tell u that u may be with him 20 yrs and not know everything.They only tell u things on a need to know basis.
    Now i will tell u this.U need to quiz him if this other woman is in Pakistan.I doubt she is in Pakistan and his sibling because he would 100% have to marry a Pakistani woman.No such thing as children out of wedlock in that culture.

  • Imran

    July 7, 2014

    @Ashes

    I’m a Pakistani and I wish you good luck in this relationship. The guy you’re seeing seems like a genuine guy and it’s not uncommon for guys here to fight against their family wishes and marry a girl of his own choosing.

    But, if somehow your marriage doesn’t work, I hope you will not come here to damn an entire race of 200 million people, like certain people here do.

    Regards and all the best.

  • ashes

    July 7, 2014

    @ Gail, I’m glad you put on the pressure to have more talks. I just got off the phone with him and found out something new after questioning something I always found off – he’s over the moon about his mom and sister and always makes sure we’re all in contact and love one another. I asked why the dad (although he approves and is happy, isn’t on the same “oh my goodness, I love ashes level and why we don’t talk to him nearly as often) He went on to say, “You know I’m way closer to my mom and sister. I never told you the reason why. Growing up, my mom and dad had frequent arguments. My mom did something (he wouldn’t expand) and my dad left her for another woman and already has a kid with her. My dad has always been good to me and I respect him, but I’ll never forgive him for leaving my mom after 25-30yrs of marriage.”

    I asked if the Dad became polygamous and he replied, “No…because my mom left him”. That would explain why he became highly upset when I casually asked what his views are on polygamy a year ago and he went into a huge rant about why he hated it. I always though he over-reacted, but perhaps this is the reason why.

    It sure is ODD being with someone for over two years and finding out something so huge just today. He always gave me the impression they were together.How can I not even know his parents aren’t together after dating him for two years? It makes me wonder what else I’m unaware of and need to learn… :/ Def. looking forward to have real good long talks again after Ramadan.

  • ashes

    July 7, 2014

    @ Gail… I believe you and I’ll press the sect subject further. I think I’m going to wait for Ramadan to end to really bring it up. The only time I talk or see him these days is after Iftar and before he goes off to prayers (so I only spend just over an hour with him. tongue ). I actually want to make an entire evening’s discussion out of it. Not just asking what sect he’s in, but to revisit old topics we’ve talked about before -things I’ve learned on this blog. I’m curious if his mind has changed on any of the previous questions I asked him since we’ve become more serious and he seems to be getting deeper into religion. So it’s worth re-asking. Better to just ask everything at once, I don’t want to worry about hurrying the conversation (as we would have to do if I asked during Ramadan). I will most def. report back to you. I really appreciate that I can come to you and get great advice. Honestly, I’m so thankful.

    @ Aumeer, I’ll check it out now. Again, these places aren’t in my immediate area, but are less than an hours commute from where I Iive so perhaps I can make an evening of it. You opened my eyes to check for these kinds of events in my home city!

  • Aumer

    July 6, 2014

    @Ashes

    Well, luckily it seems that the other Mosque (SBIA) is also having an interfaith dinner on July 20th. Check out the following link:

    http://sbia.net/2014/07/interfaith-iftar/

    SBIA is a little further north on Montague Expwy & 880 … it’s a new mosque that I haven’t visited as frequently as I visited the MCA, but I’ve heard great feedback in regards to it’s performance.

    There are a few private Islamic Schools in the South Bay region by the way. If you’re looking into switching jobs, you might want to consider their openings happy

    Adam

  • ana

    July 5, 2014

    Gail,

    You mentioned something very important when you stated:

    “To me that is amazing thought if u just sit and think on it.

    Like how a mother teaches her daughter and how she teaches her daughter and so forth but all starts from the first generation and that generation lives on.”

    What you said coincides with the point I tried to make to those who say we need other books to go with the Quran in order to know how to pray. If anyone challenges a person who believes in other books than the Quran and believe books devised by men are needed along with the Quran, their defense is always the same standard saying, “We would not know how to pray without the other books”. It’s such hogwash.

    You clearly explained how we learn by information being passed from one generation to the next. It’s an easy concept to understand.It’s not rocket science, yet some people just don’t get it or just don’t want to get it.

    Allah, in the Holy Quran, speaks of the times of the prayers, the direction to pray in, and the positions to pray in. He even tells us how to read the Quran and how much of it to read.

    People prayed and taught others to pray. It was passed on from generation to generation. Furthermore, all Allah need do is say “BE” and it is. Allah could easily have all Muslims praying a certain way, as He controls all things. It is easy for Allah.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 5, 2014

    Dear Gail,

    About the story, you said, “It is an amazing story and anyone who has that much loyalty to Allah/G.D to lay down their life is WOW amazing to me.” Gail, I understand and appreciate your sentiments. I don’t know the long version of the story. What I know of the short version leaves me questioning what their motive was to sacrifice their lives the way they did, and not die fighting. Had Allah instructed us to do such a thing, I could get with it and see as a good deed. We can’t just do things all willy, nilly, make things up, and think they are good deeds. Allah tells us in the Quran that some people do deeds that they think are good, but they aren’t and they get no reward for the acts.

    Sounds more to me the loyalty of the men today who do the self-Mutilation, chanting, and chest beating is loyalty to the dead, those 75 people. It’s not loyalty to Allah, as Allah didn’t tell anyone to do it. Allah wants us to obey Him, and do as He say. He didn’t tell us to make up our own rules. He tells us what to do to worship Him. He tells us to remember Him as it’s the greatest thing in life without a doubt. Remembering those 75 people by engaging in an unauthorized ritual,isn’t exactly remembering Allah.

    Allah didn’t tell us to inflict unnecessary pain on ourselves. He’s a Merciful and Compassionate God. I mean, there were martyrs when the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was living. They fought with him against the infidels. They will have their reward from their Lord/Allah/God. Those who lost their lives in the cause of Allah will be rewarded for it. Allah didn’t tell us to remember those martyr as in to celebrate them. They were obedient to Allah and we are to be obedient to Allah, as well so Allah will reward us.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    July 5, 2014

    Ana,
    I agree with u that cutting the backs/self mutilation is not acceptable form of worship as far as I know it to be and beating the chest is debatable.
    Now in saying that leave all that nonsense and this is where I found that I light bulb went off in my head regarding mitzva/good deeds.
    I read somewhere that your deeds is what people will remember u by and even when u r dead u shall live.
    See these people r dead and been dead for what thousand years or more yet because of their good deads they live.The moral of this story is that there loyalty to Allah and them willing to lay down not only their lives but the lives of their children is an act of ultimate loyalty and although they are dead over a thousand years yet they live.
    It goes for good and evil and we have lots and lots of examples like ghandi,Martin Luther King,
    Then u have people who did bad like Hitler and others who are also remembered for their deeds.
    Where there is positive there also resides negative but my point is even a common man or woman can make a huge positive difference in generations after them.In it’s simplest form it is pure raw positive energy that gets passed on after your time on earth is finished.To me that is amazing thought if u just sit and think on it.
    Like how a mother teaches her daughter and how she teaches her daughter and so forth but all starts from the first generation and that generation lives on.I think about this when I miss my grandmother and how she taught me things that she learned through her older sisters that raised her because her mom died of kidney disease when she was 2 but her sisters raised her according to how they were raised by her mother.So in essence even though she did not know her mother she still go to learn things from her mother through her sisters.So yet her mother is dead she lives still through the deeds.
    I don’t know how to explain better and maybe everyone thinks I am crazy I don’t know but I was sitting here one day and it come in my brain and I just kept thinking on it and come up with that sentence though u r dead u shall live according to your deeds.
    We all know good deeds r so important and I think this kinda explains why.
    It is a very interesting topic to me.
    Yeah don’t get caught up on shia and them cutting their backs and beating their chest.I am just looking at the story.It is an amazing story and anyone that has that much loyalty to Allah/G.D to lay down their life is WOW amazing to me.
    Every believer would love to think they can do it but when it comes down to it I don’t think everyone can do it.It is very hard thing to do esp if u r a mother and u see your child is sitting beside u.Every instinct in you screams save your baby/babies at all cost.

  • ummof4

    July 4, 2014

    As-salaamu alaikum and hello to all,

    Marie, take it easy on the fasting. Don’t let your milk dry up because it is there for your baby. I could not fast when I was pregnant or nursing. I tried the first two times and was unsuccessful. The last two times I didn’t even try. So I had to make up 8 years (240 days) of fasting after my last child was weaned. I breastfed my children for two years each (except for my oldest son who decided at 1 years old that he didn’t want my milk anymore) Alhamdulillah, Allah gave me a long enough life to make them up. Concentrate on the other good deeds in Ramadan and keep yourself healthy.

    Shukran for your kind comments Marie and Ana.

    Allahu Akbar wa lillahil hamd (Allah is Most Great and to Him is all the praise)

  • ana

    July 4, 2014

    @marie, As Salaamu Alaikum, happy

    It’s good to hear you are feeling better. I don’t know anything about breastfeeding and fasting or else I’d probably add my 2 cents. You know me LOL

    What your husband and ummof4′s husband said to you two was way sweet. I have handwritten notes from my husband too when he first became polygamous and had to leave me, in which he said the sweetest things that brings me to tears every time I read them. I have them in our office, in the desk drawer and I read them every so often happy

    marie, I’ve been thinking a lot about Ina, as well. Insha Allah, she’ll write in soon and let us know she’s okay.

    @Gail,

    I find it rare for anyone to say they are Muslim, and don’t identify with a sect. It’s not the norm, anywhere.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 4, 2014

    Dear Gail,

    I read the story; BUT, here is my question. What good does it do for THOSE LIVING TODAY to go out yearly, chant, beat their chests, and cut themselves? Allah has NOT instructed anyone to do such a thing. It’s not an acceptable form of worship of Allah swt.

    Furthermore, Allah swt, in the Holy Quran, says He would never allow the unbelievers to triumph over the believers. So something wasn’t right with that picture (the 72 people who died). It’s something to contemplate.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • marie

    July 4, 2014

    What I said maybe misunderstood so I’ll try to clarify. We must leave out (not do) what we like to do if it is sinful and endure what we do not like if it is in accordance with the religion

    Allah says

      “And it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.” (AI-Baqarah, 2:216)

  • Gail

    July 4, 2014

    Ashes,
    I want to be clear.Sometimes Shia and Sunni do marry but normally as far as I understand these marriages have issues because of the different sects.I don’t want to say they never marry between sects because they do but as far as I understand it to be it is not the Norm if that helps.I just wanted to be clear on that topic as I know it to be.

  • Gail

    July 4, 2014

    Ashes,
    Precious What he said is the right thing to say but that is not the truth.
    His family is either Sunni or Shia and he is lying sorry to say.He is just trying to sugarcoat it thats it.
    Even here is the funny thing more than likely if i am correct u don’t know the difference between Sunni or Shia so why he feels the need to be politically correct with u who knows.Bottom line he is lying/fronting all Pakstani people belong to a Sect.
    Now i will tell u why this makes a difference.
    In Pakistan they do not cross marry between sects because lets say if sunni and shia marry then on Muharam shia will play their music and sunni will get angry and vice versa and do there religious things and the other sect does not agree with it so always fights.
    Now obviously if your inlaws come it would be same problem with u if u are sunni and they r shia or vice versa normally speaking.Not to mention u want to know what sect your husband is from I mean after all u r going to be married and his family will become your family etc…
    Again when u have time just ask him straight what sect him mom and dad are.
    Ashes when he did not out right tell u his sect that was a sign he was trying to hide his sect.He may believe like Ana although I BET U HE DON’T but he belongs to a sect believe u me.I am kinda leaning toward him being Shia just because u said his mother is from originally from Iran and that country is mainly Shia but she could be Sunni or she could have married Sunni although normally they do not like to do.Anyway.
    I may come across as very direct I do not mean to but I know what I know I know.If u know what I mean when it comes to this stuff.So it seems I am direct when really I am just saying nope thats not truth nope thats not truth.I been around these people long enough now I can tell fact from fiction.lol

    Aumer,
    Ana is very right about my wanting to get information to the woman that come on the blog wanting to marry Pakistani men.
    I don’t know if u r Pakistani or not but it is important that Ashes get as much information as I can give her.

  • marie

    July 4, 2014

    Asalaamu alaykum.

    It seems everyone is posting over here, so here is were I’m at lol.

    @ummof4, I was going to to post about what happened many moons ago with the sunni Shia, conversations but you beat me to the punch. I was smiling when you wrote in another post that your friend who would have married your husband, but didn’t as she knew you were your husbands ‘khadijah’, I smiled because a few days after the husband married ‘other’ he brought me a few gifts I spoke about it here on the blog. He wrote a very nice note (attached to the gift) that said he loved me very much and I was his khadijah and aisha in one. I burst into tears when I read it, (I was all alone as he was still with other) it made me feel very special.

    I hope Ramadan is going well for everyone. I had to break my fast the other day as I was beginning to lose my milk (I breastfeed) I was near enough unconscious when I broke my fast the day before and vomited everything I tried to eat and drink. By the next morning it was unbearable, I had two days to replenish and alhamdulilah today was successful. It never crossed my mind that would I would have trouble fasting and breastfeeding as I fasted throughout my pregnancy, without a problem.

    @ina, there was something I wanted to tell you, the first days hubs was away getting married I was a bit of a mess, but when he came home, he had missed me so much and acted completely normal, it was hard to stay angry and upset when he was being so nice and attentive. If your husband is the same I suggest you go with it and be nice back, it will make your time together enjoyable. I had a lesson today on on obligations and sins of the heart. One of our obligations is to remain patient and to discipline oneself to endure what one dislikes and leave out what one likes. So in our situation we must endure that Allah has willed for our husbands to marry again and leave out being mean and nasty to our husband even though we may like to do so because we feel upset and hurt.

    I had more to say but it seems to have slipped my memory, Marshallah.

  • Gail

    July 4, 2014

    Ana,
    Yeah the story is like Ummof4 said.
    Also I would like to add what really makes the story special is that the leader told everyone that they would be killed on such and such date and if anyone wanted to leave they could there was no force on anyone to stay but not one left.Even there were mothers with children and infants they all stayed knowing they and there children would be slaughtered.
    To me this puts this story at the top because although many people were slaughtered and religiously persecuted this story has to do with woman and children and mothers making the choice to die rather than spare their children.It has a very deep meaning to me personally which there are no words to describe.It is a great story and Shia people do not forget them.I don’t know how the knives and the cutting back came to be part of it or the beating of the chest but it is a very emotional powerful thing to witness if a person can see the deeper meaning involved.

  • ana

    July 4, 2014

    ummof4, Wa Alaikum As Salaam

    Thank you very much for the information and for enlightening me. I greatly appreciate it happy

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ummof4

    July 4, 2014

    As-salaamu Alaikum and hello to all,

    Ana, the incident being referred to is the death of Husain ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib. He was rebelling against the Khalifah at that time, Yazid ibn Mu’awiya. Husain and Abdullah ibn Zubair did not like the fact that the new khalifah was not ruling according to the laws of Islaam and they and other Muslims refused to follow Yazid. Husain’s force of 72 men was annihilated by the forces of the governor of Iraq, who was Yazid’s representative.
    This all happened years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. This is a short version, but it is recorded in history books.

    Unfortunately, after the 4 rightly guided khalifah (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali), the Muslim ummah was ruled by men who did not follow the Qur’aan and Sunnah. So the Ummah has been in a mess ever since.

    However, Islaam is perfect, Muslims are not. So each of us should try to obey Allah to the best of our ability according to what Allah has revealed to Prophet Muhammad.

  • ana

    July 4, 2014

    @Gail,

    In my early studies about Islam, I learned the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had two sons that died. I think they were infants when they died. It’s interesting that Allah swt gave him sons, but took them at an early age. Could you imagine the problems that would have arisen had the sons lived? As the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had no sons, there were no male descendants to “take his place.” The sons didn’t live so people could worship them or could pass on a kingdom and such.

    I thought about what you said about the 72/75 people who were murdered because of their faith in Islam, which is how the beating of the chests came about in remembrance of them. I just don’t know why they were so special. Many Muslims lost their lives in battles associated with the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the promulgation, and rise of Islam. Many Muslim killed their own flesh and blood,their non-Muslim family. I was simply wondering about it thinking

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 4, 2014

    As Salaamu Alaikum & Hello Everyone,

    ashes,

    You most definitely are a very intelligent and bright young lady. Perhaps I’m being repetitive, but it is good you’re taking in all the information given here, so you are aware of cultural differences and what is culture and Islam. You said it yourself.

    ashes, it is a good benefit for you that your intended does not identify with any particular sect and he views himself as a “Muslim” only. It is so important, especially as you are a newbie to Islam, and you want to begin living the way Allah swt tells us to in the Holy Quran. You and your intended will begin your lives on the same page.

    Another thing working in your favor is that you are not close with any of your biological family who are non-Muslim other than your mother and your aunt. Mothers (parents) are special and they get preferential treatment. I think it’s universal. Muslims are to be kind and respectful to their parents. There is no problem with us and our parents unless they try to get us to go against Islam and disobey Allah. Allah tell us not to obey them, if it happens.

    What’s going to happen in your life will happen without you having to put a whole lot of brain power into trying to figure everything out. You’re not going to marry this man and live happily ever after. It is not the way life is. You can, however, marry this man and find peace and tranquility in your life, if you live life according to how Allah instructs us to in the Holy Quran. The Quran is our guide and constitution to live by. Allah tells us that He will test and try us. So, if you marry this man and the going gets tough, it doesn’t mean you (the tough) gets going. You hang in there and persevere. You exercise patience and you pray. Allah will take you through it. He will guide you. He will protect you. You will triumph. You will prevail. You will be victorious thumbs up.

    I have learn so much from Gail about Pakistan and the people. I’m so happy and grateful to know her, and have her here with us. I’ve learned so much from the people from all about the planet who join us here. Allah u Akbar!

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ashes

    July 4, 2014

    @ Ana – I laughed when I read you changed the pics on this thread. I liked the one of the black widow spider dangling down -danger! hilarious….

  • ashes

    July 4, 2014

    @Aumer – I checked it out, but it says you have to RSVP and June 30 was the last day to do that. Santa Clara is an easy commute, so it would have been lovely to make an evening out of it. Although mom is an understanding person, it might be pushing it a bit to ask her to go with me. My intended would have been incredibly happy to go with me, but we don’t see one another till after Iftar during Ramadan so this month wouldn’t work. This conference sounds like a neat thing, I’ll keep my eyes open for others like it and hopefully one in my immediate area will have something like this too. It’s so neat they have things like this.

    @ Gail, We met up at a restaurant last night for Iftar. We only spend time together during Ramadan from after Iftar till before he has to leave for his next prayers. Because of that, I wanted to enjoy our time a little and not get into any deep conversations. Therefore, I only lightly touched on the subject about what sect him and his family belong to. He said almost word for word the same thing that Ana said about it not begin good to divide into sects and its better to remain one brotherhood and that he’s just Muslim, plain and simple.

    @Ana – oh gosh, I hope the ride is smooth :/ I like to live a happy stress-free life as much as possible.

    Ok then, it’s time for me to get going. Thank you so much to all for the wonderful advice and taking the time to help me out, I really appreciate it. It’s nice knowing I can turn to this blog for help. I’m wishing everyone a lovely day and an easy fast for those that participate. happy

  • ana

    July 4, 2014

    Dear Gail,

    Insha Allah, you will get the house happy If not, it’s okay. Maybe Allah has something much better for you. He knows best. It’s all good.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 4, 2014

    Dear Gail,

    Thank you much for sharing the information about the Shia and the story as to why they cut their backs. It’s quite interesting. You’ve had some amazing experiences.

    I think another major difference between the Shia and Sunnis is the Shia put much emphasis on Ali, the son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). My understanding is a division occurred when they couldn’t agree on who should be the Caliph after Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) died. The shia believed it should have been a direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). I think the Sunnis believed it should have been the best qualified. Of course, the Sunnis believe in what they call the “Sunnah”, which is supposed to be the way of life of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), thus you have the Hadiths and such. For what it’s worth, the above is my understanding of it all.

    I simply believe it is a sad state of affairs when Muslims are killing one another. The Islamic community is in a TERRIBLE way. It’s embarrassing. No one seems to ask why their condition is as it is. I know why it is.

    When the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) died, many Muslims turned their backs on Allah. Many went back to their old ways that existed before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was given the revelation. They said the heck with the Quran and devised their own books. Thus, we have the condition of women in Muslim communities today. They are stoned. They are raped and molested and imprisoned for it. Female infants are killed. Some females are denied an education. People throw acid in women’s faces. Sadly, it seems no one gives a flying #$%*.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    July 4, 2014

    Ana,
    I have not heard anything from the bank yet.I guess it will be the 5th now before we here.
    I starting giggling about u not being able to watch the video of Shia’s cutting their backs.
    My husband is Shia and although he no longer cuts his back his back is scared up from when he did do it.
    Now as far as hubby told me and I hope I am telling u correctly Shia’s cut their backs because of the group of 72 or 75 people who were killed for not changing their faith.
    They do this during Muharam.I actually witnessed this event in Pakistan and believe me when I tell u it is a very amazing thing.
    What I mean by Amazing is that u have this huge group of men of thousands walking down the streets chanting and beating their chest and that is after they have cut their backs.Honestly it seems to be a state of massive trance.It goes on well into the night and last for hours after they cut their back and walk down the streets for miles chanting they come to my inlaws home where they sit and listen to this very famous Imam from Iran.I don’t know his name but he comes every year to my inlaws and preaches to the masses.When i was first married my hubby took me on the roof to let me witness it but the last time we were in Pakistan we went to my sister inlaws home in DHA and they hosted it there.I stayed upstairs and was not allowed to watch and hubby went and listened and beat his chest and served the masses.I was not happy about it that time as I find the practice very strange.It seems to put people in a trance for hours.Even with me listening from upstairs I feel it.It is very powerful thing I have ever witnessed and I have yet to figure out exactly the benefit of this practice but for certain as an outside looking in It for certain is some mass trance state.I will even go as far as to say u can feel the anguish of the 72/75 people that died all those generations ago.I will be honest to me it was like the spirit of those people that were murdered are there very alive very present.Again I do not know if others feel it like that and my husband has never expressed this but again as an outsider looking in I feel the spirit of those that were murdered.
    I don’t agree with cutting backs but to here them beat there chest and it make such a load sound which humanly don’t seem possible well it is like anything I have ever witnessed.I don’t know if it is good or bad but I have this feeling that it has a positive feel about it simply because even though people die they live and they still motivate people to remember them and their amazing courage.
    Sunni’s hate this thing and I can just as much see why as I hate the cutting of the back as well but again I have witnessed a deeper meaning in all this.
    I watched a documentary today that ties into this story.There was this woman and man they believed in building homes with mud because it is more ecofriendly.They went to Germany and met a woman there that had built her home of MUD and she came out to greet them and said to the India people that she felt like her family had come to visit her and the india woman asked her why she build a mud home.The german woman said she had grew up near a nuclear power plant and she had become ill and a doctor had told her to build a mud home because mud does not let radiation through or something like that.Anyway she moves and builds her mud house and her health gets better.The india woman is walking through her home and she sees a picture of Ghandi on the womans wall and ask her why she has Ghandi because she is surprised to see Ghandi pic in the german womans homen.
    The german woman said this is the man that inspired me to build this home.She said when they told me u were from India this is why I said u are like family to me because of Ghandi.
    I found that very inspiring on a personal level because it sends a clear and loud message Your good deeds are never forgotten.Your deeds live on after u.I have come to believe that Mitzva’s/good deeds are the building blocks or u can say the foundation of G.D.
    I can’t say enough about how your deeds good or bad follow u and u r remembered for your deeds.

    Aishah,
    THank u about the house.I am still waiting from the bank for their answer.Lets see I am waiting with baited breath.LOL
    it has come down between me and 3 investors.I have the lowest bid but the highest earnest money of 10,000 dollars.There is around 5,000 difference between me and the highest bid.The agent let the bank know we are the only family that has applied and my inlaws live with us.They have not declined us yet so just waiting and hoping.

  • ana

    July 3, 2014

    No more sects. We are one brotherhood big grin

    Come on people now smile on your brother everybody get together and try to love one another right now.” Lyrics by “Youngbloods”

    polygamy 411

    Peace Sign

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 3, 2014

    ashes,

    I think you are in way deep. You’ve been hit by the love bug. Hold on tight and brace yourself. You’re about to take a ride

    You can’t escape your fate.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 3, 2014

    As Salaamu Alaikum & Hello Everyone,

    I changed the pics on the main post/thread. I felt a need for a change happy

    Gail,

    It was Aishah who congratulated you about the house. Whatever is going on with you that is good, I am way, way happy for you. I have to go back and read a bunch of the posts that I’ve missed sigh I’m a slow poke when it comes to catching up.

    Didn’t the stoning of that girl take place recently in Islamabad? Safe thinking ???

    About back slashing, I had seen the slashing before on a documentary on TV worried. I watched it when I first became Muslim.

    Gail, I just put in Google search “back slashing shia videos” I saw the titles and the pic for the videos. I couldn’t bring myself to watch any of it i dont want to see What I read and saw of the previews for the videos freaked me out.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 3, 2014

    @Aumer,

    You made me laugh. Gail, had my head spinning,too. I didn’t know whether I was coming or going LOL

    Gail is very passionate about the subject. I understand why. happy I’m passionate about the Islam/Quran, so I know about passion.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    July 3, 2014

    Ana,
    It is awful in Pakistan between the sects.
    Always killing and mosque bombings.Shia’s are in the minority in Iraq and Pakistan but they are the Majority in Iran.My husband is Syed Shia.
    I don’t know how it is going to go with Ashes as she seems to not know much regarding sects and the deep roots between the sects.Then u sprinkle culture in it and BOY OH BOY!!
    I am seriously wondering if her fiance is Shia sense his mother is originally from Iran and if this is the case and he cuts his back will Ashes go for her sons cutting their backs like dear old dad.
    Now mind u I am not saying he is Shia or that he cuts his back but there are a million things I feel she is just totally unaware of.I just don’t know if she can deal the different religion plus the Pakistani culture.I am worried for her because she only really has her mother and later on if she starts to rethink her marriage and life I don’t think her mother will be a shoulder she will feel comfortable to cry on if it becomes overwhelming.I get the feeling she will be completely alone to deal.It is a hard lonely place to be.
    On the flip side she may be able to adjust and go with the flow I don’t know Ashes personality enough to say but I feel is green still and needs to to go see how he lives in Pakistan and get a feel for this man she is about to commit the rest of her life to.
    I am not telling her to go to scare her off from the man.I am more saying Hey see everything before u jump with open eyes.Make sure u understand this man and his religion and his culture before u jump off into this great abyss.

    Ashes,
    Pakistan more times than not is under alert.
    Even if it is not under alert.U are not a tourist u have family there so it is way different for u.
    I love Islambad and there is alot of police security there.Can something happen well sure but why live your life in fear.Seems to me u have to accept the risk all the risk if u are going to marry into this culture.U need to understand the corruption of the country.In other words if u choose this life then eventually u will have to get your hands dirty and go to Pakiland.
    Look homes r not at risk it is open places like markets.U r not going to market everyday and again Islamabad is the safest place in all Pakistan.Maybe I am strange I don’t know I never think I just do it.lol

  • Aumer

    July 3, 2014

    Gail

    Are you trying to enlighten Ashes or overwhelm her with lots of details?

    Take it easy on her girl happy

    Adam

  • ana

    July 3, 2014

    If every Muslim just followed the Quran (the word of Allah) and lived it, there would be no sects. EASY… We’d have one brotherhood.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 3, 2014

    Hey there, Gail,

    Others here on the blog probably would do better to explain to ashes about the different sects of Muslims in the United States. Heck, I’ve been accused here on this blog by a couple of commentators of being some type of “Quranic” Muslim. I can only assume what it is based on the name.

    Most Muslims in the U.S. probably identify with some sect, for sure. I don’t. Allah tells us in the Holy Quran not to divide our religion (Islam) into sects. He clearly tells us that we are one brotherhood. So, when anyone asks me what type of Muslim I am, I simply say I am “Muslim”, plain and simple,end of story, exclamation point.

    You are absolutely correct though, Gail, about the sects and that there are Sunni’s and Shia/Shites that kill the other. It’s evidenced regularing in the news media.

    The Sunni’s and Shia/Shite Muslims are killing one another today, in Iraq, as we write. When Saddam Hussain, who was Sunni, was in charge, the Sunnis were killing the Shites. Then when Prime Minister Nouri Al- Maliki, who was Shite, was in charge, the Shites were killing up the Sunnis. Now, today, ISIS, who are Sunni are in there killing up the Shites. They’re all Muslims killing up one another. I guess it is what happens when people disobey Allah. I’m wondering if anyone will be alive in Iraq once they finish killing one another. Insha Allah, a new Prime Minister will be appointed soon in Iraq. I wonder if any changes for the good will occur once a new Prime Minister is named? I doubt it will happen, as long as Muslim identify with sects.

    Sadly, new reverts follow the lead of the sect that they hook up with. They usually hook up with a Muslim who follow a sect and it’s what they become – that sect. New reverts are not encouraged to learn Islam and what Allah says in the Holy Quran – which follows no sect. Many new reverts blindly follow i dont know whom ever.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    July 3, 2014

    Ashes,
    One clue to know if your fiance is Shia is if he has scars on his back.Shia cut their backs on Muharam with knives and it leaves scars on their backs.

  • Gail

    July 3, 2014

    Ashes,
    I do believe his family really really genuine from there hearts like u.I have no doubt in it.My inlaws also genuinely love me and I have no doubts about that.
    Now in saying that it is obvious even though they loved me they lied to me.
    As far as Pakistani people what u r thinking as them going way out to send u clothes that is their culture and my inlaws have from day one done the same as I am certain Spirited inlaws have also done with her and so forth.
    Another thing keep in your mind my inlaws and husband invited me to Pakistan and right under my nose was his first wife/cousin.I was uneducated about Pakistani culture and I swear I did not think so much about her because he told me they were divorced when we married he had divorced on his marriage Nika.She was his 1st cousin it was normal for her to be floating around and she had 2 kids with him and I was thinking i was being nice.
    Now in saying all this looking back i see i was very Naive and how I did not end up hating this family is G.D blessing.
    U r way more educated than I am because of this blog and u will understand faster if there is something fishy going on in the future understand.
    The main thing right now is u r committed to marry him so find out ASAP what sect he is from and if he tries to pull I am Muslim and human nonsense then just simply ask him what Sect his family is.That way u go straight for the juggler.LOL
    Alot of Paki men try not to tell their sect.Listen normally Sects don’t mix like Sunni and Shia and esppp if they r Syed.
    Syed only marry with other Syed understand and they believe they r the direct bloodline from the Prophet Muhammad understand.
    I will explain more after u find out.
    It is important for u to know this because u will not want to join a sunni sect if your husband is Shia.LOL So if u r going to engage in Islam then u have to know what Sect your family is involved in because Sunni and Shia fight and kill each other.
    I don’t know about USA and how Muslims function here and if they have Sunni mosque and different for Shia etc…
    Ana and some of the others can go more into detail than I can about USA Islam.Hope this helps.

  • ana

    July 3, 2014

    @ashes,

    I don’t think there is a right or wrong in what ummof4 and I stated about a potential suitor asking permission of a woman’s guardian for marriage. Permission would work in a situation in which the parties (families) members involved are all believers; the male would approach the woman’s guardian and say he’d like to marry the woman. The woman, trusting her parent’s judgment, as they are believers, the same as she is a believer, would probably respect what her parents say, and go with what the parents decide, knowing they know better than she. We saw it in the story of Prophet Iyub (Job) (PBUH) when he let his elders select his mate. They selected the granddaughter of a Prophet for him. He knew they knew best and went with it. It’s a story not in the Quran, so I’m not authenticating it. Allah, in the Quran, tells the Believers, do not marry your women or men to non-believing women or men until they believe.

    I worked with a young Indian guy who was in his early twenties. He let his parents select a wife for him. He was happy about it. He went back to India to marry her, and was gone a month or so on leave. It was interesting and nice. He was a cute, short, Indian guy with a nice persona.

    It gets complicated in that we know many people, based on stories we hear about Pakistan, are “FORCED” to marry someone, particularly marry a cousin. Forced marriages are not allowed in Islam. I like the way the Iman in the video about “forced” marriages explained it. He speaks of the woman wanting to marry a particular male and the parents say, no, you will marry a person from our village etc.

    Then we have people who marry people Allah says don’t marry. Ashes should do as ummof4 stated and accept Islam before she marries her intended. Muslims are supposed to marry Muslims, according to what Allah says in the Holy Quran. It’s best to begin a marriage on a good footing – in obedience to Allah. Of course, you’d want to accept Islam for the correct reason. The reason should be to worship and serve Allah.

    In, your case, Ashes, as I stated previously, the whole selection process has been tainted in that you and he have dated for two years. You both have an emotional attachment. You’ve made your intention to marry each other. For your intended to ask your representative if he could marry you would be a waste of time, especially if the representative says, no. You’d probably marry him regardless.

    This whole area gets complicated when there is a mix of culture with Islam, Muslims marrying non-Muslims, and people being so independent in this day and age.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ashes

    July 3, 2014

    @Ummof4

    I hope we do live by your ‘to each his own’ outlook. My guy weaves in little things about his religion each time we meet with her as he does with me. We had lunch just before Ramadan and he explained about his upcoming fast and why he does it. She thinks it’s great and understands. It’s doubtful she’d ever change religions herself. She is so involved with Christianity that it has become part her identity. I think mom will have the same general attitude yours did, she’ll be sad I left her religion but happy that I’m still trying to live a righteous life and believe in God/Allah.

    @ Gail,

    Thank you for all your help. You always raise good questions, we’re meeting for Iftar tonight at a restaurant and I’ll ask him what sect he is. His mom keeps telling me to come visit her in Islamabad and that I’m more than welcome to stay at their home. He said he would love for me to go there, but that it might be better to wait till Pakistan becomes a little more stable. Islamabad is on high alert right now… I don’t know Gail, to be honest it does look a little dangerous right now from what news is reporting. I will pressure him a little just to see if he’d sway or is dead against it, which would raise a flag. You’re right, it’s important to see him in his natural habitat. happy

    I agree with you that most have their partners picked out from a young age. We discussed this again and again and he said his family is fine with him making his own decision and that he doesn’t have a secret wife. *shrug* he’s either lying or he’s telling the truth. What more can I do than ask and meet the family and keep my eyes open for warning signs?

    Gail, I do have one question. Why do you think his family is so incredibly nice to me? I know in your situation the motive was so your husband could gain citizenship and also you were seen as a cash cow. For my situation, again, he’s already an American citizen and he makes the big bucks, not me. The family has nada to gain from me. They greeted me with gifts and hugs every time we met up. Heck, they even bought me Christmas presents although they don’t celebrate themselves. They keep in contact with me on their own, I just received beautiful outfits they picked out for me. I mean, if they had plans for him to have an arranged marriage, or were against us being together, I’m sure they’d still be nice to my face -it’s in their culture to be nice in your face. But they are reallyyyyy going the extra mile with me within sending me gifts, keeping in contact, encouraging me to come visit. Why would they put in so much effort?

    Next point – I’m sure he will continue to get more and more religious. Which is why I personally want to make sure I’m ok with Islam, we’d have to be on the same page or else it’ll just lead to arguments. No doubt our kids will be raised Muslim no matter my say. Islam, I have a good feeling about, culture popping up that never existed before is what I’m afraid of.

    You know Gail, I know all the things you warn me about are true for the large majority. What’s one to do when there have been no major signs for me to run for the hills yet? I’ve floated down from cloud 9 several times to have very important discussions with him. It sure would be easy if we already had major culture clash or his family hated me. Status quo, things are surprisingly smooth. Yes, some things may present themselves after marriage, I’ll have to wait and see and deal then. I don’t know what else to do besides keep having open discussions, have eyes open and to never become dependent on him so that I’m independent enough to walk away should things one day take a turn for crazyville. happy

  • Aumer

    July 3, 2014

    Ashes

    Bring your mom along with you to the MCA then happy

    I just remembered that they’re holding an open house this Saturday 07/05 from 6-9pm. If you’re in town, you might want to check it out. The open house details are on their website (www.mcabayarea.org) and you can book tickets for you, your fiance and your mom. This should be an event with mostly non-Muslims guests, so you won’t feel like a stranger.

    I hope you enjoy the event!

  • Gail

    July 3, 2014

    Ashes,
    I wanted to clarify something.These marriages that are being called forced marriages is kinda misleading.
    See in Islamic culture the children must must obey parents and do what they say.If the children do not do what the parents wish for them then it is not the parents fault but the Adult childs fault.
    These woman that are saying they r being forced to marry are disobedient Adult children.They knew from childhood their parents would pick their spouse for them.Obviously the Adult child does not want to accept the marriage so they say they were forced to marry.I do not really see it as being forced in the true sense of the word since these people know their culture and refuse to walk it.They r more like rebels u can say.
    I mean think about it logically how can u be forced to marry when you live in a culture your entire life knowing your parents will choose your spouse.
    I notice u mentioned about your sister inlaw not being forced into marriage.This term forced is not like what Americans think it is.
    These people do not grow up free thinking they will pick their own spouse to start with.So where is the force?
    Even small children u can argue they r forced to marry/Child brides but again when u live in a culture where u just do what your family says I don’t think it is a true force.Th family walks on group mind not individual mind.
    What I mean by this is it is ok on small things to have your say and speak your individual mind but on matters of marriage it is not up to the individual but the family group and parents make final.
    Again we Americans think these woman are being horrible forced but in reality the girls are going against their families.They are being bratty as we say in the west.
    I just felt a need to make that clear.
    It is really hard for an american to wrap their free mind around this concept.
    This is why that woman got killed in Lahore.She was being a brat and went against her family.That is a realllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy STUPID thing to do because u r cutting your own throat or signing your own death warrant because the family sees this person as stepping out of line and out of the one family group mind.It is a huge insult to a family for this to happen.
    The reason for this is because people stay in groups in these cultures and help whoever is in their group or network u can say.There are alot of skanky people in these countries so the families do not want to mix up with skank people.
    Now I am not saying the Lahore girl should have been killed and what happen to her is horrible and sad but if u see reality this was a woman who went against her family and married a man outside the family who was a skank.
    How do I know he is a skank well easy he should never have approached that woman but went to her father for marriage.
    She went against her family and look it comes out he is a murder.
    How can her family accept her individual disobedience?It is not possible when u live in a joint family group system.

  • Gail

    July 3, 2014

    Ashes,
    Ana and everyone gave u some nice advice if u r thinking to Accept Islam.I have to say I personally agree with Ana that if u want to accept Islam go ahead and do it and Allah/G.D will more than likely send u a Male Rep. as u get more into the Islamic community.I wouldn’t get caught up on all that so much.
    Now since u have made up your mind u r going to marry your Boyfriend u need to understand some things as far as Pakistani culture goes.
    First of all I seen one huge read flag u mentioned with your Boyfriend wanting to marry in Dubai instead of Islamabad.
    Yes Pakistan is having issues but Islamabad is the safest place in all Pakistan so it leads me to wonder why he would not take u to his home in Pakistan.I will be frank with u that don’t sound at all right to me.Also I don’t understand why u would not want to go to Pakistan to meet his family.
    Look even my husband was Polygamous and hid it from me but he made sure I went to to Pakistan and see his family and how he lives and where he came from.I can not stress this enough to you as an American you truly have zero idea about this man true identity unless u go to Pakistan and meet his family.Normally from my experience when people from Pakistan make excuses they don’t want u at there home for a reason.
    As far as Dubai again sounds strange to me how on earth is he to get his entire Pakistani family to Dubai?U have to understand these people r really big on huge weddings.
    I am going to be frank with you Ashes.I feel like he is hiding something.He is over 35 and way to old not to have been married in Pakistan.U by your own admission have said his family has done arranged marriages with his sisters.So it is obvious they r living Pakistani culture.Which i am 1000000% certain they are.Knowone lives in that culture and don’t practice it.
    Also u have to understand something these people r not the same as u and I and what I mean by that is the fact that if u did go to Pakistan which I highlyyyyyyyy Highlyyyyy am telling u that if u r going to commit your entire life to this man u better go take a little looksie at where he came from and his culture.I will go as far to say that you really do not know the man u r going to marry until u go to Pakistan and see with your own eyes.
    Am I thinking this is going to change your mind to marry him NO more than likely not because u have been smitten by the love bug my friend butttt will u see your husband through an entire different set of lenses yeah u betcha chicky.
    My sincere thinking is if u do it before u marry then it is better for you rather than u getting a jolt after marriage.
    Why I push going to Pakistan for any woman that is serious to marry a Pakistani man is very simple.
    Have u ever seen that movie with Sally Fields “Not Without My Daughter”
    The womans husband was a doctor in the movie and it was a true movie by the way.Anyway she goes to Iran with Moody her husband and they had a wonderful loving marriage.Everything u r describing and she thought nothing to take her daughter and go visit his family in Iran.Wellll once she got there and was in complete culture shock her husband totally changed personality on her and started being hard on her and treating her horrible.She had to risk her and her daughters life to get her out of Iran.
    If u have never seen that movie watch it.Pakistani men are the same way and also u mentioned your husband mother was from Iran I believe which is making me wonder if your future husband is Shia muslim?
    Again I do not know if u understand about the Sunni/Shia sects in Pakistan but if u don’t u better learn it and not let him brush it under the carpet.
    Now u r talking to switch to Islam which is all well and good but u need to keep in mind Islam will not be your long term problem but instead Pakistani Islamic culture will be.
    Ashes let me know if your Guy is Syed or Shia or Sunni. I don’t want u to think i am against u NO way and not at allll.I want to do my very best to educate u as much as I can so u are aware of things.
    One thing I am really concerned about is the fact that u do understand that your husband will be much more strict on any daughters u would have than boys?
    He may not admit it but he will for certain think boys have a role to play and woman have a role to play and that means he will want his daughter to be brought up same like his sisters.So again this is why I stronglyyyyyy encourage u to step off of cloud 9 for 5 seconds and come back to earth and go see these people and how they live and sit there for some time.I am not talking some short visit.U need time there to understand the culture and really know what u r getting into as far as your future children are concerned and yourself.
    Another thing are u ok with arranged marriage for your children esp your Daughters.Because he will never allow them to be married to Christian white men.How do u feel about taking away your future childrens rights all for love.
    Again these r the facts and please do not tell me I got it all wrong.LOL and your man is not like that.
    Here is the thing woman are not understanding thats sounds sooooo insane to me on so many levels that I myself was sooooo guilty of.
    When a woman says that her Pakistani man is different than the others and takes up for him that is like saying Oh my White American man does not act American he acts like a Chinese.hahah understand.
    I was so guilty of this and believe me sister I had to eat crow and that was part of my serious anger towards my husband because he was sooo awesome with me.
    I told everyone oh he is not like other Pakistani men he is same like American men and lets me do what I want.After I got of kicked off cloud 9 by my husband and excowife I seen real quick who the idiot was and It was me.
    Now I am dealing inlaws living joint family system and having to deal with my hubby telling me that his kids will marry in Pakistani culture and he would never in a million years allow his daughter to marry anyone except a Syed Shia Pakistani man.
    He already has my kids marriage partners lined up and this is going to be a hugeeeeeeeeee Hugeeeee fight in the future which I have already decided I will go with what my children want and not my husbands wishes.I love my husband but it is not possible I can force them to do arrange marriage to a cousin against their wishes.I just can’t do it.
    One more thing then i will ZIP IT.
    U have to understand right now he is going to sugarcoat everything until u marry him.After u marry him then slowly over time u will see the real him shine through.Like if u ask him about children issues and would he be ok if his daughter married a Jew or a Christian because after all u both have a mix marriage.
    Have u asked him this???? Most men will say oh the kids can choose.My husband said that but guess what it was a big fat lie straight from Haides!
    After we had kids boy did he start singing a different tune.Now how would u like to be 12 to 15 years into your marriage to have hubby come out and start singing a different tune about the kids.
    U going to be willing to walk away after 15 yrs of marriage? When he has been loving in most ways to u. My point is this Ashes it seems easy before u r married that things will just magically work out but what normally happens u will find yourself exhausted 10 years down the road from his behavior.Woman get tired and men have very strong personalities when they want something.If u fight with him he will just take another wife or have affairs.Pakistani men are rarely faithful.OK enough said I am done.
    I am not against u marrying your man.I want u to be educated and understand the long hard road of mixing American and Pakistani culture.
    Let me know what sect your husband is I can try to explain to u some about it if u like so u have idea. I am kinda wondering since his mother is from Iran if he is Shia religion since the majority of Iran r Shia.

  • ummof4

    July 3, 2014

    as-salaamu Alaikum and hello to all,

    Ashes, you sound like a very intelligent young lady with her head on straight. Your mother spending time with you and your fiancé is a good thing. She can become comfortable with him. Have you given her information on Islam? She can then know what true Islam is. When I became Muslim I gave my mother a Qur’aan to read and she read it. My mother was a pillar of the church and the community; your mother sounds a lot like mine, except she never had a car. She liked the Qur’aan, even though she died a non-Muslim. She saw the similarities between the teachings of Prophet Eesaa(Jesus) and Prophet Muhammad. My mother was sad that I became Muslim but happy that I had not left my belief in Allah.

    I am close to my non-Muslim family. I have 6 siblings and a whole bunch of nieces and nephews and cousins. My siblings and spouses have monthly dinners and my 3 sisters and I have “sisters only night” four times a year. They are all still non-Muslim. I live by “To you your religion and to me my religion.” We respect the fact that we all have a right to choose a religion.

    Ashes, sounds like you’re headed in the right direction. You know that ultimately the decision to become Muslim or not is between you and Allah, not your fiancé and his family or your mother. Whomever Allah guides, no one can misguide and whomever Allah leads astray, no one can guide.

  • ashes

    July 3, 2014

    @ Ana,

    I was just thinking how secluded I sound as a homebody, but looks like I’m in good company here. happy

    I read your story before and know most details, but I’ll have to go back and re-fresh every detail. Right after I submitted my comment it dawned on me that once you converted, you basically cut almost all ties with your family and they in turn didn’t accept you becoming Muslim. I was just going to ask, before I read your answer, what you did in regard to a male representative since you were in a similar situation.

    Mom is the most important person in my life. We’re close, growing up it has always just been the two of us. She was just an awesome mom and devoted so much of her time to me. She’s a person that truly lives by the bible. She’s genuinely so kind hearted to every single person on this Earth no matter who they are. She doesn’t drink, smoke, curse, she lives to help others. She works all week then drives around people that don’t have cars to get their groceries, she will go without just to give her tithes for the month. She literally spends entire saturdays preparing bible stories for the children at church. She just talks highly of everyone. She’s a good person.

    She’s going to be way sad finding out I’m not going the Christian path anymore. It breaks my heart. She would never disown me, just be sad. I know for a fact she will still want a relationship with me and I want one with her -I know I couldn’t ask her for advice or to understand most things Islam, but I’m unsure I’d ever be able to distance myself from her. She really has nobody besides me as well.

    My intended is making such an effort to become very close with my mom. It’s very important for him personally that she truly 100% approves of us and likes him. She has never said anything bad, but he’s smart and understands any parent would be worried that their daughter is with someone from a different culture/religion. We’ve been doing lots of activities with her. She is so sweet to my intended and loves when we all hang together. I’m sure she is worried -she probably finds herself conflicted -this is the first guy I have ever been serious with, introduced her to, and she knows how much he means to me. She’s too kind to confess the apprehension that I’m sure is in her heart. She’s an incredibly understanding person.

    @Ummof4,

    Yes! I have been praying for a while now about the marriage and Islam and how everything will work out. I don’t know how I feel about needing permission from a male representative in order to marry. I’m afraid I don’t know enough about Islam to know if you or Ana is right on that one. I’d be more than happy to have a leader speak to us about what’s required in a marriage -I really want to live it right and I’d love to have someone I can turn to and ask how to deal if things ever started to sway from the required.

  • ana

    July 2, 2014

    ashes, happy

    You and I have a lot in common. If you’ve read my story or have simply read the blog, you know I’m a “homebody” type person, as well. I have one very close friend, my wali/bestess.

    When I was non-Muslim, my family were the closest to friends that I’ve had, other than when I was a kid. My mom was my very best friend, until I became Muslim. We were very close.

    When I became Muslim, I distanced myself from them a good deal. We no longer had anything much in common. I could no longer do the things they did or sit around the table shooting the breeze, engaging in vain talk and such. We used to entertain a lot and it all came to a stop. I had a new life.

    When I became Muslim, my wali bestess and his wife became my best friend, especially my wali. They are my Islamic family. We take care of one another. He is like a guardian angle to me. We have one another backs.

    I still associate with my biological family and Alex’s biological family for special occasions. In fact, Alex and I attended an affair with his family earlier today. Other than it, the people on this blog are my friends/family too. Gail, is similar to us. She recently stated she is a “home body” so to speak, as well. I’m sure there are many others here like it. You are not alone in that area It’s all good. thumbs up

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ummof4

    July 2, 2014

    As-salaamu Alaikum and hello to all,

    I pray that Allah will accept all of our fasts and good deeds this Ramadan.

    Aumer you and I were on the same page with encouraging Ashes to find a friendly masjid. Alhamdulillah you actually gave her the name of one to attend.

    Ashes,it probably is best if you don’t wait too much longer to get married. From the way you write, I don’t think you and your fiancé have had sex, but the longer you wait, the greater the temptation to have sex outside of marriage. If you have had sex, don’t tell us, that’s not our business.

    It will probably be best if you are Muslim before you are married. But if not, then you can still talk to someone in leadership at the masjid. That person should be able to sit down with you and your fiancé as your representative to make sure that both of you understand what marriage is about. He can also make sure that you get your mahr (dowry) and inform both of you of your rights as spouses.

    My husband acted as a male representative for couples where the woman does not have a male representative from her family. I believe Ana had her bestess act as her walee when she was married. In Islaam, a female cannot be the official representative for marriage, it must be an adult male Muslim who knows something about marriage – the conditions, rights and responsibilities, etc.

    Everyone, remember to remember Allah regularly. Thank Him for all that He provides for us.

  • ana

    July 2, 2014

    ummof4 & ashes, As Salaamu Alaikum

    ummof4, with all due respect, I beg to differ with you about a man needing permission from a woman’s family or representative before he could marry her. A woman must consent to a marriage. She shouldn’t be forced to marry anyone against her will. Nowhere in Quran does Allah say a woman can’t select someone for marriage without the permission of anyone else. Of course consultation is advisable, as we are to conduct all our affairs with mutual consultation. She decides who she will marry whether someone approves or not. We’re trying to get away from the cultural practices of people taking control of someone else lives without given that right by Allah. Cultural practices are impeding the progress of the Muslim community.

    We need to be mindful that ashes is not Muslim yet and her family is not Muslim. Her family members can’t represent her in anything. If it was the case, my brothers or my step-dad when he was living would have been a wali (guardian) for me. I have no Muslim family member, which is why my non-biological Islamic Family – my wali who I speak of all the time acts as my guardian.

    Are we to expect that ashes non-Muslim family will consent to her marrying a Pakistani Muslim man? If they are Christian, I’m sure they would want ashes to marry a Christian. They may very well disown ashes once they learn she is contemplating accepting Islam and considering a Muslim for marriage.

    Non-Muslims know nothing of our way of life, and don’t believe as we believe. It makes no sense to involve them in our affairs. In fact, Allah tells us not to. They can’t judge anything for us because the Quran is our Criteria Allah has given us to Judge with. Allah says don’t listen to them. You’re telling Ashes to go call on her non-Muslim family when it’s not what were supposed to do.

    I agree with you that Ashes need a wali (a Muslim male) to look out for her best interest. Where she will get him from, Allah knows best. Allah could send her a representative the same as he has done for me. It should not be any one related to her fiance, as there would be a conflict in interest.

    The whole selection process regarding a man for ashes to marry has been tainted, as Ashes and her intended have been together, I believe, for two years. They already have made their intent to wed. They already have love in their hearts for each other.

    I get very concerned about what people are learning, simply because a lot of it is CULTURE. It is not Islam. ashes needs to be careful with the masjids that she attends as well, as there are numerous sects out there and they worship differently depending of the sect.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ashes

    July 2, 2014

    @ Fatima,

    Yes, it’s hard being the only one and not having a friend to go with. Hopefully the same thing happens to me that happened to you. happy

    @Aumer, Thank you, I’ll check it out. Of course I’ll dress conservative and maybe it will be a better thing if I don’t try too hard with fitting in. At least I’ll be easily spotted and hopefully some come over to teach the newbie.

    @ Ummof4, We haven’t set an official date, we both want it to be by/before next summer -that’s the goal. . But it seems his family is high pressuring him to hurry it along, so might have to cram before then which would be stressful. In all honesty, I’d like it sooner. There’s just a few things that need to get in order. First of all, we live an hour away from one another. He can’t relocate, so I have to move to his city. I don’t want to just quit my job or commute an hour each way every day (during rush hour, the one hour is closer to two hours each way) I need another job lined up and I’ve been applying this is the main thing we’re waiting on. Next, I have to find someone to take over rent for where I live -my mom owns the house I live in and I want to make sure she gets a really good tenant once I leave. Of course we have to think of all the details.

    I’m a home body and never liked going out, so I really don’t have close friends. When you factor in my schedule: work, gym, grading papers, cooking/cleaning/spending time with my mother and my guy, I really don’t have time the time for friendships. I’m only close to two family members -they are the only ones that live near me- my mom and her sister. Because of all this, I told my intended I have no desire to have a wedding here in the U.S. since there’s really nobody I care about attending (besides my mom and she will of course travel with me for my big day) I said I’d be fine if we go to the courthouse to have it legally done, but have our REAL elaborate wedding in Dubai so that it’s closer for his family/relatives and extended family to come. It only seems logical we do it this way. I said I’d be fine with Islamabad but he said he’d feel better about Dubai since he doesn’t feel Islamabad is too safe during this time. Easier for us to just go there than fly everyone here. I can just take my mom with me.

    I don’t have a male representative. My dad passed when I was young and mom never re-married and has never even dated the entire time I’ve been alive. I’m an only child, no brothers or sisters. I only kept in touch with my grandparents on my Dad’s side but once they passed away, I no longer have any contact with that side of the family -they all live many states away anyway. My mom’s side of the family is scattered throughout C.A. and I’m not close to these people since I only see them once every few years at family reunions. Honestly, the only people I consider family is my mom and her sister. *Shrug* I don’t know what to do about this. Is it allowed for my mom to be a representative?

  • Gail

    July 2, 2014

    Ana,
    You would not believe how much gay activity goes on in this societies.It blew my mind when I come to find out and because of that I keep my children under lock and key because my own husbands niece got molested at age 8 by the cousin upstairs.Thanks G.D she screamed but he barged in on her in the shower and tried to molest her.The boy was around age 15 or 16.So yeah it is a nightmare and I would make my daughter take showers with her younger baby brother for protection and I would watch the bathroom like a hawk.These Muslim nations are sexually repressed.
    TO me logically speaking it is better to marry them early at 18 rather than wait till they r in their late 20 or 30s to marry them.It is just not logical to think that people this old can hold on their hormones.
    I am advocating in to my children to pick one person and we will fix with that person meaning marry.They may not actually live with each other until after college but they know well if they are going to need sex then we want to fix marriage as my husband and I don’t want them doing sex outside marriage.
    I don’t know how r plan will work out but thats kinda the game plan in our thinking.
    The practice of the boys dressing like girls is called Bacha Bazi.It is very old practice and has been around forever.It also exist in Pakistan with the older Men dressing as woman and Men using them for sex.I have seen this practice with my own eyes and it is very freaky to see a grown man with facial hair and makeup on parading around like a woman.It freaks me out.Gives me a very uneasy feeling to have them near me.
    I think Kim has also seen them I think i remember her saying and I wonder what Spirited thinks of all that since she was born and raised in USA.LOL
    On a different note I submitted and offer today on a home.The home is Amazing and in the very best best area where everyone wants to live.It si a village and it has it is built around 3 lakes and the home is like 5 minutes from my property.At the end of the road u can see the lake and it is just picture perfect and some of the homes on the lake front have their very own boat dock.Unfortunately the home I made and offer on is not actually sitting on the lake but the very next road over is a dam and boat dock.My first offer was declined but I resubmitted a higher offer after I found out there was one more offer.An investor is trying to get the property also which is a headache.I am just sitting here waiting right now the home is an REO through one of the local banks and it is dirt cheap.My 1st offer i put and offer of 15,000 cash with 5,000 earnest money but the bank declined it which we kinda thought they might but was not certain.The bank was asking 25,200 but yesterday they lowered to 21,500.The investor gave ab offer of full price but only 1,000 earnest money.I went back and reoffered 20,500 and up the earnest money to 10,000.Now I am just waiting to see my luck.U would not believe they listed the home as a 2 bed 1 1/2 bath but they had added on rooms so it is a 4 bedroom with 2 living rooms.It does need some work but for the price it is Amazing and is Amazing.
    Lets see how it goes!!

  • ummof4

    July 2, 2014

    Ashes,
    When are you supposed to get married? Do you have a male representative? When a Muslim man marries a woman he needs permission from her male representative. Do you have a father, a brother, an uncle, cousin, etc? Make sure that your male representative talks to your fiancé man to man and asks man to man questions. The beauty of a woman having a male representative ( a walee or wakil in Arabic) is that it makes the prospective husband understand that he won’t only have to deal with his wife, but with another man. The male representative won’t love the fiancé and the fiancé can’t sweet talk him. The male representative won’t have stars in his eyes and his heart won’t go pitter patter at the sound of the fiancé’s voice. Marriage is about love, money, security, compassion, honesty, trust, companionship, parenting and much more.

    Just for the record, my husband and I were not Muslims when we married. Both of our families thought that us marrying was not a good idea. We respected their opinions, but went with what we felt was right for us. We both became Muslim about 18 months after we were married. Now we have been married almost 40 years and my heart still goes pitter patter at the sound of his voice. And he still usually calls, emails, skypes or facebooks me at least twice a day whether he is in town or out of town on business. Sometimes we Skype each other when we are both in the same house. (Sounds corny, but it’s true) This happens even when he is out of town at his home with his other wife.
    (No ladies, he does not contact me during their night private time, that’s a rule that all three of us have to respect.)

    Ashes, I think the ladies here are just advising you to think with your head and your heart. And get that male representative!

  • ummof4

    July 2, 2014

    As-salaamu alaikum and hello to all,

    Ashes, I believe you should pray and ask Allah doe guidance during the month of Ramadan. Ask him for guidance about you accepting Islaam and for guidance about getting married. From what you have written, your fiancé and his family are not governed by culture. I don’t know how religious they are. And Allah knows best. After you pray, Allah will guide you if you go to Allah with sincerity. This blessed month of Ramadan is a good time to establish a proper relationship with Allah.

    You say you are going to San Francisco. There are many Muslims and many masjids in the Bay area. Try to find one that has classes for people who are interested in Islaam or new Muslims. A masjid that offers those types of classes are usually open to people asking questions about Islaam.

    May we all submit to and obey Allah as He has commanded us to.

  • Aumer

    July 2, 2014

    Ashes

    If you’re in North Cal, look up the MCA in Santa Clara and go for a few informative sessions about Islam and to get to meet more people. It’s one of the most diverse mosques I’ve been to across the US. During my time there we worked with numerous questions in regards to Islam and many new Muslims.

    Don’t worry about “what to dress”, just go with whatever you wear for school. The nice thing is they have a small store on the side where you can buy modest clothing if you eventually become a Muslim and decide to follow the dress code.

    Good luck,
    Adam

  • ashes

    July 2, 2014

    @ Gail

    Thats crazy you had 8 years of bliss without any clue of anything. I sure hope I don’t find myself in the same situation ever. I’m type that doesn’t snoop or play detective, but I keep eyes and ears open and I’m generally under the impression that warning signs show up without having to go find them if there really is a problem. It’s crazy to think you had 8 years without any strong suspicions. I get that it happens. To be honest, I probably would be too scared to date someone who isn’t an American citizen after the horror stories. :/

    You’re correct, he’s older than me. I’m 26 and my intended is 35. His sister had an arranged marriage… It wasn’t forced, she backed out of 2 engagements before she finally married this one. She didn’t get married till she was 30, she’s very independent, has a masters degree…. she didn’t want a baby till a few years ago… She just had her first baby last December….gosh, I believe she is 38 now. His family was on him to marry before he met me, but he refused as he (and again I can only go by what he says) says he wanted to get to know a person more than what arranged marriages allowed for. He says he wouldn’t be the type of person to have a secret wife back home, if he was married, his wife would be living with him, so no need for me to worry. He loves his family, ESPECIALLY his mom.

    Before I met them I always asked, “they are so important to you. What if they don’t accept me?” He always said, “you know they mean a lot to me, but at the end of the day, I make my own decisions about who I’m to spend my life with. I have already told them about you and they accept my decision and can’t wait to meet you.” He went on to say, “I’m 35… I haven’t accepted anyone’s hand in marriage over there, don’t you think it would of already been done by now?” To be honest, his parents were probably just relieved that he will get married at all and have kids since he’s so stubborn. I was the first girl he ever introduced to his family. The first time I ever seen him cry was when i hounded him wieth question after question about secret wife, family dynamics and not accepting me and all the other things I learned from this blog. At the end of the day he said, “I don’t know what more you want me to do? I’ve answered honestly. Look how I’ve always treated you. I introduced you to my family which is a HUGGEEEE thing….it just hurts my feelings that you just keep on and on”.

    At the end of the day, he’s right. I can’t keep on and on. And it stressed me out too. You and others taught me what to look out for and I’m still learning and having discussions with him. I sure hope years from now he doesn’t turn on me…. but at the same time, it feels silly to walk away from an amazing relationship with a man I’m to marry over stereotypes and when he has done everything right so far. SO FAR. I don’t want to snoop or play detective, but I certainly am aware to keep eyes open and I’m embracing myself for anything that may happen in the future.

    I’m off to fight the early morning rush hour now. Going to San Fran for my summer job. It takes an hour just to move an inch in that traffictongue Talk soon!

  • ana

    July 2, 2014

    Correction: “Women are for procreation and men are for recreation.”

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 2, 2014

    @Gail,

    Oh, my goodness, I was just reading your post in which you stated there are a lot of gays in Pakistan. It’s funny that my wali/bestess and I just yesterday morning was talking about the forced gender segregation in Islam and the problems it causes.

    We spoke about the TV documentary that I watched about Afghan people. I spoke of it here on the blog a number of times. The men were all up dancing and gyrating while the women were all gathered together sitting on the floor. The men were getting off surprise. They were going to town. I heard stories, as well, about men in Afghanistan and a saying associated with them – women are for procreating and men are for fun. Many of the men go into town and have sex with the young boys. It’s creeeeeepy.

    Wow, and then to hear you say there is a gay problem in Pakistan, as well. I suppose it all over the planet.

    I could see how separating males and females by force could contribute to the problem of homosexuality, as well. After all the men are together ALL the time. I see how it contributes to the problem of men walking up to women and groping, and grabbing their private parts. Molestation and rape isn’t uncommon in many of these Muslim countries. I see why women are afraid to go out unescorted or are warned against it.

    Nothing in the Quran supports the separation of the sexes. The ayat in the Quran that people refer to deals only with whom a person can MARRY and not marry and who a person can be in a state of UNDRESS in front of. As I stated, when we go to Hajj the millions and millions of Muslims aren’t separated. Why the separation every place else where there are Muslims? Muslims are brothers and sisters-in-faith. You mean to tell me brothers and sisters-in-faith can’t communicate with one another? It’s absurd.

    I have so much catching up to do with comments here sigh It’s fajr prayer time. I must run. Catch you later, Insha Allah.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    July 2, 2014

    Ashes,
    One last thing My husband says he never intended to divorce me ever.He thought I would leave him after the truth came out so he kept excowife a secret.He went as far as to distance himself from her after him and I married and they did not have sexual relations until he told me the truth and only then did they have sexual relations because I told him it was ok and go ahead.He stopped all sexual relations after 9 days because he said he just could not do it.It was not in him to have sexual relations with her.I felt really horrible for her and I tried to get him to resume sexual relations with her several times because she begged me to help her but he just flat out refused and got angry with me and said to me “You are pimping out your husband” I got shocked what in the world and after that I knew it was hopeless and I could not help her in the sexual relations department.
    Now in saying all this I believe he was playing me and Yes I think he thought at first he would divorce me after he got citizenship because he had some strange relationship with this other woman in the next town where we live.He was acting like a player to be frank.
    Your inlaws will never speak up against their son and tell u if he is messing up so don’t expect and that was a huge shocker to me knowing I had a baby with my husband and how they could lie and control my life by lying to me.

  • Gail

    July 2, 2014

    Ashes,
    It is the culture not the country understand.
    There are alot of Pakistani people that grow up in Europe yet they live and talk Urdu or Punjabi and keep Pakistani culture inside the home.
    Look at your future sister inlaws.Are they married outside the family or inside the family to cousins.This is a huge sign of what kind they are.I am fairly certain your future sister inlaws are not married outside the Pakistani culture unless maybe they r married to Iranian men.I mean White or black men from Europe.Do u know why?Because they r not alloweddddddd.
    Also do u not think that if his family is wealthy they would be like other pakistani people and want to marry him in the family to keep the wealth in the family?My point is why do u assume his family is different from the majority?Because they are nice with u?
    Do u not think his mother or father have one niece that they could marry him to or a very close friend daughter.I’m just saying!
    They marry in the family to keep the wealth in the family it has nothing to do with love but more to do with wealth and family honor.
    I am going to be brutally honest here.I think i remember your boyfriend is pretty much older than u if I remember correctly and u r pretty young.If i am thinking straight and Rich logically speaking they should have someone for him.
    Look at Fatima story.her husband was pressured to take a India/cousin wife even he was married to Fatima already.Pressure from the family made him do it.
    You do what makes u happy but my guess it in the long run u will face Polygamy or divorce with this man because Pakistani men have hugeeee sex drives and they get bored and they love to flirt.
    I can go on and on for days on this topic but I said my peace.Just becareful secure yourself and plan for the worst but hope for the best is my sincere advice.

  • Gail

    July 2, 2014

    Ashes,
    Do u not think the first 8 yrs were not GREAT for me?
    I was more happy and positive and never questioned him than what u are understand.
    I can’t stress to u enough how happy and over the moon and lucky I thought i was to have captured the interest of my husband.He was and is the love of my life.
    U have to understand something when u feel so strongly for a man and he betrays u in such a demeaning way it changes your personality.I don’t know u or how much if any u have to take up for this mix relationship with your own family.My family and everyone and I mean everyone was against my marriage and tried to get me not to marry him.Do u know humiliating it is to eat crow?
    U have not been there or done that yet and that is why I am warning u.As far as him growing up in Dubai that means nothing.In Dubai Pakistani people r not considered equal there.If his family live in Islamabad that is right next to my husbands city.Your talking 20 minutes to get to ISB from Pindi.Girl u listen to me straight get your Butt on a plane and got there and see Pakistan for yourself.Don’t assume anything.U need to see reality for what it is.If his family is Wealthy they did not get that wealth from being Honest I can assure u because honesty gets u knowwhere in Pakistan just ask your boyfriend how far honesty gets u in Pakistan.
    As far as difference in attitude city verses village I would say my husband was raised next to the capital Islamabad and educated with a BA degree.
    My excowife is from a tiny village in BFE and uneducated 8th grade level max.Attitudes r both same and not a lick of difference in my opinion.
    Now as far as your future inlaws I have no doubt they do like you but is it enough if say his mother wants him to marry a cousin in the future if he is not already married and if your boyfriend is saying ask them well that is laughable to be frank because those people are tied closer than two dogs hung together if u get my drift.LOL
    Look u know reality now if u have been reading for a year and u understand everything clear.I am sorry I seem so negative I don’t mean to be and if u love the guy and u want to marry him knowing the risk then by all means go for it girl.U r educated enough now through reading the blog.Do not live your life scared but at the same time don’t be a fool either is my advice and the message I am trying to send.
    Let me be clear I DON”T regret marrying my husband however I do regret his lying and making so many issues when there was no need.
    U r so right about American men and divorce also.
    I have to warn u though.I have never met a Pakistani man that did not have something to hide.

  • ~Fatima~

    July 2, 2014

    @Ashes..
    I know how you feel about going to the mosque. I For one am n American blue eyed blonde married to my indian husband.I remember first few times going to the mosque with my husband. Ladies upstairs.. men downstairs.
    I didnt know what they were saying.. I was the only american in a room full of india , somalian, pakastani ladies. I wore a long dress and scarf and was soon confronted bysome very nice and curious ladies who began to tuck wisps of blonde hair more snug under my scarf and wisked me away to sit bedside them which I followed their every move as we prayed.My husband also is my only guidance in islam.
    The ladies showed me the correct way to wear my scarf. I felt good around them even though ther english was not good , their smiles were heaven..
    You should go to the mosque and you will learn there. If the ladies are not friendly.. just smile at them.. happy

  • ashes

    July 2, 2014

    @ Gail, do you think it makes a difference statistically where they grow up vs how crazy they are? Ie rural vs urban settings? My guy grew up in Dubai for most of his life then the family moved to Islamabad way later (currently his sister lives in Dubai and mom, dad, brother live in Islamabad). I know the crazy stuff happens everywhere but I’d think statistically it’d be way more common in village type areas. His mom is Iranian and his dad is Pakistani, so he’s a mixture. *shrug* . I still call him Pakistani since his main language is Urdu

  • ashes

    July 2, 2014

    @ Ana,

    Home is where the heart is. I’m a total home body and I’m glad to hear it’s perfectly acceptable for women to study at home. I would like to go to the masjid every once and a while, but it’d be so nice just to stay in my cozy house, in my cozy clothes, with a warm tea and some snacks at my side reading scripture.

    I grew up a Christian and I always remember seeing couples come to church together. They cozy up to one another on pews and listen to the scripture. I always thought how nice it is to be able to share that experience with your life partner. I was a little sad to find out that isn’t the case with Islam and gender is segregated. I’m aware of the reasons behind it, but still kind of bummed I’ll never be able to share that experience with him. That is an interesting point about there being no separation at the khabah. :0

    Ohhhh wellll, maybe we’ll just have a study day once a week at a coffee shop or something. It could be fun. happy

  • ashes

    July 1, 2014

    @ Gail,

    I’ve been reading your advice for the past year. happy

    He isn’t polygamous and has encouraged me to ask his family, says he never will be as he doesn’t want to split family time and listed off all the reasons. I said ok but you don’t know what God has planned for your future. Don’t make this promise to me, Just promise you will never hide anything. I’ll worry about it if/when the time comes and I’m sure it would be the greatest test of my life if it ever did happen. I also wouldn’t put no polygamy in a contract because frankly it’s futile if they want it, you can’t stop them. Nobody knows the future, if I was with some American Joe, maybe he’d cheat or get divorced from me one day and get re-married. I just can’t stress over every “what-if”.

    Didn’t your husband’s family lie to you about him being polygamous because they had a big plan for him to get married to you then later divorce and bring co-wife in? Of course they were nice to you, you were what their son needed in order for him to get citizenship. Then of course he fell in love, but before he fell in love there was a big plan behind all those lies. My guy is an American citizen. We voted at the last election. The family is genuinely nice and calls me and sends gifts on their own. Not once have they asked me for anything. Again, maybe there’s some motive I don’t know about and maybe it’s all just a front and they really hate me. but why stress myself till it presents itself? Why be paranoid?

    I’m not the cash cow. I’m a teacher from a humble background. His family is well off, he grew up in Dubai. My guy is well off – he’s a senior level engineer at a very well known tech company. He’s an investor, he’s a businessman. He owns fancy houses and drives nice cars. I’m a teacher that drives a Prius -my Prius is super cool, but alas I’m not the cash cow. happy

    Considering future finances is important. However, I’m generally not too worried about it because I already have a house mom is putting in my name and I have my teaching job and know to save for retirement etc. If he were to marry me without a pre-nup he’d have more at risk than me since he makes way more. If he presents me with a pre-nup, I’d be fine it’s his money, but then I’d be way picky and say I’m not splitting half the cost of your big fancy house when I’m a teacher, I’m going to save most of my money and I’d go into details and then I’d have him sign things to to what I believe is fair. If I have kids and he ever wants me to quit my job, I’d negotiate again and say, for ever year I’m a stay at home mom, you will put the same amount of salary in my bank or put that I will get one of your houses should we divorce. I’m not greedy, let him have his money, but I’m smart enough to where I don’t want to ever be in a situation where I’m dependent on him.

    Gail, your advice is good and REAL and I do keep it in mind, but honestly my experience is positive so far. What am I supposed to do? Honestly? Should I be paranoid 24/7? I don’t want to assume everyone is out to get me. I don’t want to live my life like that. I’m the type of person to where if my husband screws me over like yours did I cut the crap and say goodbye. But till it does, *shrug* I don’t want to live a life of paranoia.

  • ana

    July 1, 2014

    ashes,

    You sound so excited about your life with your intended, and about learning Islam. A huge smile came to my face when I was reading you. I think I mentioned it before to you thinking or was it to someone else? – You and your intended sound very much like my wali and me. He is and has always been my mentor. He introduced me to Islam and I’ve learned just about everything about Islam from him. Of course, I did my only studying, as well. I have read the Quran from cover to cover for over 28 years now. I’m losing track of how long I’ve been Muslim (reverted). He, his family, and I go strictly by the Quran. Don’t get me wrong; we read and have read many, many many Islamic books – books by Ghazalli (I think I spelled his name wrong) and all the well known scholars. Some books were out of print that we had to find. I have a library of Islamic books in my Masallah (prayer room) here in my home. As most people do, I gravitated towards reading other books more than the Quran when I first became Muslim. I really think Satan was at work with regard to it. It’s very nice you and your friend study together and you could teach him a lot as well, with regard to separating Islam from culture.

    I know EXACTLY how you feel about going to the masjid. I, till this very day, feel the exact same way as you. I’ve only been to masjids a handful of times. I have been to a few. I never found the people there very friendly. I’ve heard the same from other people as well. Every place is different, so you will have to see. It could be because of the language differences as well. You don’t have to go to the masjid if you don’t want to. Allah tells us to make our homes our masjid. Ummof4 will differ with me about women attending a masjid, but it’s her right.

    Anyhow, I’d suggest next time his family is in town or if he knows of a Muslim female in the area you are in now who you could go to the masjid with, go with one of them. Let them know of your apprehension and that you’re not exactly comfortable and, Insha Allah, they’ll help you through it. ashes it certainly would be absolutely wonderful if we could all, males and females, be in the same room? It reminds me of when Alex and I were going to the pre-Hajj classes. He and I walked in and sat together. An older husband and wife came up and sat together too. We set a trend. Couples started coming up to sit with us LOL and the people hosting it put a stop to it and separated us – males on one side of the room and the females on the other LOL. The peculiar thing is at hajj with the millions and millions of us going around the Khabah, there was no separation of males and females. There was only separation in the Prophet’s mosque in Medina. It’s weird.

    Anyhow, I look forward to chatting with you soon. happy

  • ashes

    July 1, 2014

    Ana,

    Yes, I agree; it’s important to still know signs and keep an eye open. The only one we can truly count on is Allah/God. Otherwise, it’s a nice feeling to have some inner peace and not over-analyze everything. Time has proven his character and meeting his family really helped me. After meeting them for the first time, I may have shed a few tears of joy on the way home, I just felt blessed with how things turned out as I know this isn’t the typical case.

    This blog has taught me the difference between Islam and Culture. Once I finally learned the difference, it was a relief. So many “Muslims” do crazy things that branch from culture then scream it’s in the name of Islam. tongue

    II do have to say that I genuinely feel more at peace the more I’m learning and trying to live Islam. However, I’m still a hugeee newbie to it all. Ana, I’ve never even been inside a mosque. I’m even a bit afraid to go for reasons that may sound silly: I don’t know how they dress, I wonder if I’ll be stared at as the white girl that looks weird and has no idea how the prayer movements go. tongue I’m glad I’m with my guy as he’s the only one I have in real life to talk to about Islam and he’s a even a role model I look up to. Too bad men and women don’t worship in the same room or I would love to tag along with him. I’m happy to be welcomed at this blog to ask questions or even just come say hi. happy Wishing you a lovely day and I will talk soon! happy

  • Gail

    July 1, 2014

    Shilpa,
    I don’t know if I would go as far as to say Pakistani men rape their sisters but I do know for a fact they do try to get sex but mainly from other males to be frank from what I have heard.They have those freaks that are men that dress up as woman in Pakistan I can’t remember right off top my head what they r called but OMG they r soooo freaky to look at.I had then approach me in the marketplace and boy for lack of better wording it flipped my SH!T!!Really freaked me out to see this man dressed like a woman come near to me and beg for money.YUKKKK is all I can say.My husband told me that men use those types for sex.Here in the USA we call them transvestites but in Pakistan there seems to be some religious thing tied to them as well.
    Also their seems to just in general be alot of gays there as well simply because they do not have close access to woman.
    I know other countries say USA is so morally wrong but on the flip side I can’t say in truthfulness that Islamic countries are any better because the only difference in USA we do in the open and Islamic and other countries they do in secret.So in saying this I really wonder which is the lesser of the two evils.

  • Gail

    July 1, 2014

    Ashes,
    Listen I am Gail married to a Pakistani man from Rawalpindi Pakistan.
    First of all depending on this mans age he could be married in Pakistan.Now I am not saying he is but there is always that 50% chance that he could be.
    Now in saying that can u deal Polygamy if it comes out he is married or will take a cousin wife in the future or any wife because keep in your mind he is MUSLIM and in his brain he has all rights to do this and u know this.Now obviously u can tell yourself he will not practice polygamy or u will divorce him.I can assure u it is all easier said than done when u have invested your time and years into a husband and a marriage and a life.
    Yeah it is nice his family treats u nice but thats just the way the culture is.My inlaws treated me from the time we were dating until today like i am the best thing since double Roti(sliced bread) understand but they all hid a secret from me that my husband was Islamically married understand.
    My point to be taken u can not go by how his family treats u sadly or how he treats u.You just have to simply see the facts and decide if u r willing to take the risk and if u decide to take the risk then u must do somethings to prepare for the worst as u hope for the best understand.
    If u do this u must have a separate bank account that he can never get his hands on and I am not kidding u.Never think oh i have been married 10 yrs I am in the clear u just can’t ever be complacent in my opinion.U better get property on your name at least one home prepare for your retirement just incase things don’t work out.It is normal things but with a twist.
    Now I am noticing alot of woman are putting in their Nika/Marriage contracts No polygamy but I would advice against this as this is a huge joke to be frank and instead put if he decides to practice polygamy u want at least 1 home in your name and 50,000 in your bank account.Now Islamically I do not know if this is ok to do but I would make certain I financially made him responsible.I would not make it something crazy but I do believe 1 home and 50,000 USA dollars is reasonable in my opinion.
    Something else u need to be aware of is if u marry in Pakistan Which I WOULDDDD if I were you is because u can ask for money in case of divorce in your Nika which has to be paid upon Divorce understand.
    I would make it at least 1 years salary around 50,000 USA dollars to 100,000 USA dollars.
    U may think OHHHHHH Gail sounds so GREEDYYYY!!! No that is not the case.Gail has been there done that and sees how she got played with NIKA.All Pakistani woman put money in their NIKA to detour divorce understand.It makes the man liable and it will make him think 1000 times before he cast u off.
    Now if u tell him this and he says no he won’t do it then u better know something is up and walk away.Either way it is very good way to check the Pakistani man and if he really loves u he will have no problem with securing you in case of divorce.
    hahhahahahahahahah something else u open your pretty little mouth and start singing this sweet tune and u see how fast his sweet family turns on you and tells there son/brother u better watch out for this B@tch she is smart one.See the more STUPID/uneducated u are about their culture the more it seems they like u because u r a sweet cash cow for them understand?

  • ana

    July 1, 2014

    @ashes, happy

    Thank you very much for refreshing my memory of you and your circumstances. I remember you now. You sound to be involved with a Pakistani man who does not fit the mold of the ones we often hear about on this blog.

    It’s good to know he is a U.S. citizen, is a professional, and you’ve met many of his family members. You’ve done your research and you’ve investigated. You know what should raise a red flag, should you encounter it. I’d suggest you take it easy, (but don’t fall asleep) and go with the flow of things.

    It is way exciting that you have an interest in Islam. It does NOT sound that you are interested in Islam only to marry, which is very good. It certainly would be a boon for you to accept Islam so you and your Pakistani fellow could marry and be on the same page. It’s way important for a successful marriage. Please learn to differentiate between what is Islam and what is culture or tribalism. If it’s not in the Holy Quran or contradicts what is in the Holy Quran, it’s not Islam. It’s an easy gauge for you.

    We’d gladly love for you to join in whenever you feel comfortable speaking here or have something to say, even if it’s simply, hello happy

    I remember a saying that goes something like this: “If you look at anything in the harsh light of day, you will see the flaws in it.” There is such a thing as over analyzing, as well.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    July 1, 2014

    Shilpa, Welcome to Polygamy 411,

    Your post probably irritated quite a few readers. Some of us got slammed here by commentators for our posts/comments about Pakistani men. What we said was mild in comparison to what you said.

    Your post makes it sound that ALL Pakistani men are as you stated. I doubt you meant it that way. It simply comes across that way. I’ll address some of your statements.

    About Pakistani men not allowing Muslim women to wear tight clothes, do the men dictate this or is it the women’s desire to dress modestly? Allah has commanded women to be modest and chaste. They are not supposed to wear tight fitted, figure revealing clothes or have their cleavages hanging out and such. I don’t think any Muslim woman who is a Believer would be caught outside her home looking that way or amongst men in the house who aren’t of an innumerate member of the family. Not only would the man not want her out there exposed, but she wouldn’t want herself exposed.

    About honor killings, yes, it does happen in Pakistan. The killings that we hear about are NOT in accordance with Islam. They have to do with culture and tribal rituals. In a recent article that I posted, someone stated offenses against women and injustices are common in Pakistan. It’s somewhat the “norm”. What you said about them killing their sisters if they marry outside the family, it has been known to happen. We have a post about the young woman who refused to marry her cousin and her father, the cousin they wanted her to marry, and numerous other people stoned her to death.

    About Pakistani men raping their sisters from childhood, I think it’s a generalization. I’m sure it happens. It happens here in the United States, as well. It probably happens just about everywhere on the planet. It’s important to know how often it happens and what is done about it. I was a Prosecutor’s Detective and was assigned to the Sex Crimes/Child Abuse Unit for years. I had cases in which fathers, stepfathers, uncles, and family friends sexually assaulted girls. I was assigned cases in which babies and toddlers were sexually assaulted. It happens. In some countries it happens far more regularly than in others. In some countries, one could say it’s the norm. I will say that in the United States there is zero tolerance for such acts. The cases are taken VERY seriously. They are rigorously prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

    You said men in Pakistan can have four wives, but women can only have one husband. It is What Allah permits for men and women. You won’t find many women wanting more than one husband. It’s ABNORMAL. You will find vengeful women claiming to have more than one husband because their husbands have more than one wife. Anyone could say someone is a husband or a wife. Where’s the PROOF? Who’s recognizing it as such?

    About the torturing of women and treating them as slaves, what I said above regarding another statement that you made applies to this statement, as well. I’ve heard it is customary for a woman to marry and she then becomes the slave of the mother-in-law. i dont know I only know what I hear of it here on this blog. I’m not Pakistani. I’m not married to a Pakistani. I don’t live in Pakistan. I’ve never been to Pakistan, and don’t intend to go there. I only know of Pakistan and the people from what I’ve learned here on the blog, heard in the news or know of the Pakistani group that my husband and I attended Hajj with.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ashes

    July 1, 2014

    Ana,

    I’m responding in this section as to not go off topic in the other post. To refresh your memory, I’m a western Christian woman that has been in a relationship with a man from Pakistan for over two years and I’m also taking a big interest in Islam -despite him and his family assuring me it’s fine for me to remain a Christian. I’m a long time silent reader.

    I don’t comment a lot here because my experience has been extremely positive so far. Since I never talk, here’s an update: I finally met his family a while back when they came over to visit for about 5 months. He introduced me right away and I was invited to all of their actives the entire time they were here: trips/eating out/movies etc. The family welcomed me with open arms and always made meals for me or had a gift for me. Now that they’re back home, they talk to me all the time via cell phone/SKYPE etc. Just last week the mom and sister sent me lovely outfits. He already informed them that he’s very serious about me and intends to marry me, which they are fine with.

    He is already a U.S. citizen, successful engineer, overall accomplished in life and is such a genuinely kind and good person – I mention these things to make it known him nor his family have nothing to gain from me.

    I feel really lucky that I’m having such a positive experience not only with him but his family. He has welcomed any question this blog has lead me to have concern over. I’ll try to comment more on this blog anytime I feel I can add anything positive or give advice to another user. happy

  • shilpa

    July 1, 2014

    Don’t listen to “A Pakistani Man”.Do you know that pakistani men don’t let muslim women wear tight clothes and skirts.These men are monsters,beware of them..Honor killing is a fact in pakistan.These men kill their sisters if they marry anyone outside their family.Also these men rape their sisters from childhood..there is a rule in pakistan such that men can have multiple wives at a time but women can have only one husband at a time.Pakistani culture is all about torturing women and treating them as slaves.

  • ana

    June 22, 2014

    @ A Pakistani Man,

    I believe there are “intelligent Pakistani men out there who are decent human beings.” I never said there wasn’t. I never said ALL Pakistani men fit the mold of those to beware of. Perhaps you should re-read the post.

    Thank you, however, for commenting and expressing your view.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • A Pakistani Man

    June 22, 2014

    How dare you write this, I dont know what sort of tripped out experiences you have had with Pakistanis but we are not all the same. You seem to be the type of girl who has dealt with some serious rejection perhaps that is why the article is coming off as bitter.

    And we do not all come from Pakistan some of us are born in the UK and like you live normal lives however misconceptions and stereotypical thought processes have meant that gradually over time this is how everyone thinks but I say to you now that there are thoughtful intelligent Pakistani men out there who are decent human beings.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 22, 2014

    @Gail..I feel for you sister.. Brotherinlaw still here..Been 3 months now.. I’m not used to people staying in my home this longand I explained to hubby that maybe he’s used to families living together but I’m not. Its okay to come visit what to expect us to pay for every little thing including cigarettes and phone cards it becomes too much. I told him to tell his brother he needs to go back home to his family and I know my husband doesn’t want to be rude like that but I don’t know what else to do. I believe he will stay here as long as he possibly can. Our water bill and electric bill and food bill has doubled. I feel like he’s trying to take over the kitchen and only wants us to cook and eat what he wants. He doesn’t like my American cookIng.my husband actually agreed with me this morning. Actually my brother in law is doing nothing but just sitting around hanging around watching movies smoking and eating all his good food he wants to eat. Enough is enough and I know how you feel gail. I don’t know how you’re going to handle your situation but I’m going to look up a plane ticket for mine back to India. Haha

  • Gail

    June 22, 2014

    Ana,
    My problem is I feel like they r bleeding us dry.
    I am not a rich by any means.Now I admit i am not dirt poor but at this rate I am going to be if this keeps continuing.
    I know what u mean about Islam and Parents but I have my culture also and I say kick them to the curb already.
    Something else these people r not poor they r way wealthier than me so why on earth should i feel compelled to keep helping them over and over again.
    I don’t even have a home for my kids at this point we live in a 80s 2 beroom 1 bath piece of crap trailer.When I say piece of crap i seriously mean it is falling down around us.It is horrible and nasty.I feel like I have been more than patient with him and his parents do not act like grown adults they act more like kids that u have to drive around to Dr apts and well to be blunt they are pain in my @$$.
    They drive my car I trued to stop it and hubby said I was being horrible.I don’t like people in my car driving my gas out and making excuses because they are so miser not to put gas in the tank.
    maybe I am being over dramatic i don’t know but really my nerves r just fried.
    Oh get this ok they have not been working in the last 2 weeks their van caught fire so they been waiting to get back from the mechanic they get it back and I come home at midnight and guess what no van sitting in the yard I can only assume it screwed up again and they just paid 500 dollars to the mechanic.
    well guess what now they will be looking a me to give them money to purchase another van.My point is I am tired of being the bank for these people and I am really at the place where I have told hubby to take his family and shove it.
    I have zero sympathy left at this point I just see my kids need a home and I intend to get it for them this season with or without my insane husbands help.
    It is true I am lashing out at him ALOT but in all seriousness I swear i can’t help it.the last 2 weeks he has been dealing his parents van on top of work.Now mind u anytime they break down who do they call u guessed it hubby.
    Time is money and they r sucking into my profits on top of everything else.

  • ana

    June 21, 2014

    Gail, Gee Wiz,

    About your wedding anniversary, it’s all good; it’s just life. We all have these expectations of how things are supposed to be, but life simply is not that way. No one is living an ideal, picture perfect life. Half the time, we don’t even know what we really want. We get ourselves all worked up because things don’t go the way we expect them to on a day that we make “special” in our heads. Allah/God has already determined how each day will be.

    Gail, your husband didn’t make or want the tire to go flat. It was beyond his control. There was a time, I’d react exactly as you did when something like it happened. Insha Allah, you’ll get to a point where you’ll realize sh!t happens and it’s beyond our control. We just have to go with it, and make the best of it. Even laugh about it, if it helps. Your husband had no control over the road. Had he known the road was jacked up I doubt he would have driven down it. The last thing he wanted to do was change a flat tire.

    Again it comes back to desire. You both probably wanted a “perfect” evening. It actually was a perfect evening, as Allah/God has made everything in perfect proportion. Everything goes the way Allah/God plans it.

    In the future, on a day like a wedding anniversary, you probably need to avoid any serious discussions that you know may result in a disagreement or argument. With regard to his parents, that he “lied” to you about getting the money back from them, he knew you would not accept that he had no intention to get the money back. Parents are special in Islam and, as you see, they are special when it comes to culture, as well. I wouldn’t expect anything back from my mom, if I lent it to her. I mean, if she gave it back, fine and good, but if not, fine and good, as well. If your husband was to give it to his parent, not for them, but to seek the good pleasure of Allah, Allah would replace it ten folds or multiplied.

    Perhaps you need to lighten up on your hubs. He lied in the past, but you don’t always have to see him as a “liar”. I’m not saying don’t be cautious. I’m sure it hurts your husband when you call him a liar. You can’t keep making him feel like a loser, and expect that he will be kind and loving to you. I know what he said hurt you. He probably only wanted to lash back at you for what you said and how you made him feel.

    About moving on and leaving your husband behind, I know how you feel. I went through a thing in which I questioned whether I wanted to be bother anymore with Alex. I said to myself, let him go retire someplace with girlfriend, and come visit me occasionally. Now, I think differently. I want to remain married to him and live as we’ve been living. It’s all good.

    No one is living a life that they would have written for themselves, if they could. Gail, it’s time to stop seeing the worse in your husband and see the good.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    June 21, 2014

    Oh i also wanted to add we have been getting along really well up until yesterday and I am sure after a few days we will get along again but where it has changed over the last 6 months is I am committed to living in another state without him.He knows I am not focused on him anymore.I just wanted to toss that in there.

  • Gail

    June 21, 2014

    Ana,
    My anniversary started off not well and ended worse to be frank.
    The highlight of the day was taking the kids to a local fair and to toys r us.After that it all went down hill.
    We have been married 11 yrs.
    OK so we go to Applebee’s for a late dinner around 11pm. We have a flat along the way and I am super pissed because we just put brand new tires on the car and the Idiot chooses to go down this dirt road as a short cut and drive like 35 miles hour down this dirt road.FLAT TIRE! I am calling him an idiot and stupid for being on that road and screwing up my new tires.
    So he changes the flat with takes 30 minutes because he took the good jack out of the car and there was just this manual piece of crap.
    Now we r back on the road and off to Applebee’s we get there and we start talking about his parents and them having a bad season.Well I just blurt out and say so what cut the crap they paying back the 8,000 or not.He starts stuttering around Oh I don’t know they r having such a bad season making excuses.Again I told him cut the crap they had no problem to take the money and now u want to talk crap to me.First of all u never gave them the money and told them to pay it back I know very well.You just kept playing me and rolling along to get through the season and now u r trying to soften me up for end of season when u will use the excuse they had a bad season well guess what I don’t care.See my face does this look like a face that caresss Take a good long look.Then he proceeds to tell me that everything will be fine and I told him to save it.I told him it is a lie like everything else that comes out of his mouth.We leave and in the car it really gets heated.I told him I am not like excowife and continue to keep taking his crap.I am looking for a home to purchase and as soon as I do I and the kids r moving.He then popped off that he wished he stayed in Pakistan and never come to USA and excowife was the better option for him.Obviously that hit a nerve with me but I said very calmly well your in luck she is still sitting there and I have zero intentions of cleaning your parents A$$es in the next few years so there it is laid out as smooth as a baby’s butt.Then I tossed a stone at him and said well for your kind information I should have moved on with my first love instead of sitting here getting abused by you and your mouth.
    Oh well that hit the nail on the head! He started smart mouthing me in Good ole Pakistani fashion and now I am back on the ignore list.LOL
    I messaged him and told him I am going to go back to school and he is going to be responsible for the kids until i am finished.Well he spouted off for me to talk it over with my first love why am I talking to him. I knew for sure I hit a homerun when looked down and seen his wallet I bought him for anniversary with everything pulled out of it and thrown on the floor.
    Ana like I said a million times before I am just so over it all.I am just sick of him and his lies.
    I even told him it is not his parents it is him I am sick of.
    He gets really supper pissed that I am still on the blog and he thinks u have corrupted me.LOL
    He also gets hot when I tell him I warned some girl from Pakistani guys.
    Believe me I am all for living single life.
    I am getting same like Spirited in alot of ways and just feel like men r not worth for.
    My intentions at this time is simply to buy a home and move away from him.If he comes to visit fine if he don’t fine I don’t really care what he does to be honest.
    I guess u helped me to not focus on him anymore and in that respect the blog has helped me 1000%.He doesn’t like that I don’t care what he does anymore strangely.He knows he can’t yank my chains anymore and it seems to drive him mad.I don’t know. So yeah sorry to report my Anniversary was a bust.

  • ana

    June 21, 2014

    Oh, one other thing, I need to reiterate that no one says men from other countries don’t manipulate and scam women. I think we all know it happens.

    What we are saying is that there are a good number of Pakistani men who have wives already or who are already intended to women for marriage and they scam and manipulate foreign women for marriage too. Thus,they are polygamous or intend to be.

    Again, yes, we know men from other countries do it, as well. They scam and manipulate women into marriage so the men could obtain a Green Card/Immigration status. The other men, however, are not known to be polygamous. Yes, there are men of other nationalities who become polygamous, but we don’t hear much of any fraud, lies and deceit that takes place to the degree we hear of it with regard to Pakistani men.

    Women come to this site to speak of their plight with regard to Pakistani men and polygamy. We don’t have a whole lot of complaint regarding people of other nationalities with regard to polygamy, fraud and deceit. Yes, other women are struggling with polygamy and they are of various nationalities, but it absent a lot of the scamming and manipulation, from what I can see.

    There would be no need for this thread, if women weren’t coming here to talk about their problems with Pakistani men. We don’t just make this stuff up. It’s a reality, as much as some may want to close their eyes to it.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 21, 2014

    Gail,

    You said a mouth full when you stated, their style of speaking is very smooth, which lures people into thinking they are innocent, yet their mindset is not innocent. Cadgedsoul had it going on, sounding all kind, warm hearted, and timid. Oh, isn’t he sooooo nice. But, he kinda switched up on us when his brother from another mother – Just kiddin Rolling on the Floor Laughing – when the other Pakistani’s guys joined him here. He said he didn’t want to talk here as it would get messy. Now, I see it that he didn’t want to blow his cover. He wanted to keep us asleep. By the way, Cadgesoul arrived here from the hater of islam blog, for those who didn’t know.

    Yeah, I must admit, many Pakistani men are smooth talkers. “Don’t let them blow your mind with their sweet talkin lines”. He had Fatima and Allijah going, maybe got me for a minute, too.

    Gail, where do you think these men get schooled. Oh, that right, they teach each other. Remember what Spirited said about her little brother. They were trying to school him when he was in Pakistan. It’s charm school for men.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 21, 2014

    Gail,

    I hope you had a most wonderful, lovely and happy anniversary. I was thinking of you yesterday. How many years are you now married?

    Gail, I must say, after hearing so much and learning so much about some of these countries, especially learning a lot from you about Pakistan, I have a great appreciation for the good ole United State of America – for sure. I began to appreciate America once I got to Hajj.

    I remember one person say that when he returned from Hajj, got to America, and stepped off the plane, he kissed the ground. He had a new appreciation for this country. I can dig it (I know it sounds corny. I like playing around with slang) hee hee

    What took me back was when Cadgesoul got all huffy when I tried to engage him in conversation about what could be done to improve Pakistan. Cagedsoul got very defensive. He said Pakistanis don’t want any sympathy, especially from the U.S. Yet, as you said Gail, they do everything they can to get here. They’ll bust their rump to get here. I now see what Jenny meant when she said her husband’s ex-wife pimped him out.

    Gail, you asked a good question. You asked why the Pakistanis don’t stay in their country, and try to clean it up. They simply flee. They hate the U.S.; so they say, but they’d hijack a plane to get here. You know what I’m saying.

    I’m just speaking my mind.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    June 21, 2014

    Ana,
    One more think than I will get off my soapbox.
    The same brother inlaw that is a General and his first words to me were I hate George Bush is now dying to move to USA and thinking I am going to sponsor him and his family to come live here.Obviously he has another thing coming.Believe me the next time I see him and he ask me about sponsor I full plans to look him right in the eye and tell him to ask George Bush to sponsor him.
    He can kiss my @$$ as far as i am concerned!!!

  • Gail

    June 21, 2014

    CagedSoul,
    I just want to say to you.If u love Pakistan so much then why not stay in Pakistan fight to make it better instead of run away?
    U can’t have it both ways sugarcoating it saying u love your country out of one side of your mouth when u know for a fact the country is in turmoil and is failing miserably.I am not blaming on you personally but the problem I am seeing is every Pakistani male has your same mentality to run from the country.
    When I married my husband my brother inlaw who just happens to be a General in the Pakistani Military his first words to me was not hi by kiss my @$$ but instead he looked me right in the eye and said he hated George Bush.
    This coming from a General in the Pakistan Military.
    Something else that really angers me is that Pakistan gets all this world aid yet does nothing to better the peoples lives and the people know it yet they do not rise up and use there LARGE voice to change it.Bottom line the it is not just the government that is corrupt the people themselves are corrupt.They have no B@lls to make their nation better.
    Pakistan is nothing more than bottom feeders as far as I am concerned the entire lot of them.
    Thats my 2 cents on this entire topic.
    I will say this I am very proud to be an American.At least we r not cowards that run away from r country and hide.
    I am very proud of our country because even though we have r own flaws I really do believe we are one of the most awesome nations in the world and I am so Thankful for our elders and how they raised us to be honest,decent people.
    This country went through sacrifices and knowone gave us anything we as a people had to stand together and fight for our freedoms and we as a people never run away from a fight if we feel we r being wronged.
    So I do not get this mentality that Pakistani people say it is better to run from their country when their population is so huge rather than stand up and fight for change.I am sorry I see them as a COWARD nation without any love for Allah.G.D.This is how I see it.

  • Gail

    June 21, 2014

    Ana,
    I read the post and this is what I deal with every single day of my life.Pakistani men mentality is soo warped.
    Ana U pegged it right.They have this since of arrogance about them and entitlement that well to be frank really disturbs me.If u notice with cagedsoul using him as an example he claims he was born Muslim but yet he defends and says he loves his country that acts so disgusting.Pakistani people will talk about the west and say how nasty we are and immoral yet they inwardly die to come here and sex it up and make money all because they can’t get that in Pakistan in the open.
    These people r ingrained from birth to lie,cheat steal,Fight,Kill all while saying Allah is great!
    They are a rogue nation as far as I am concerned.
    The talk very smooth speaking style about them that lures people into thinking they r very innocent but their mental mindset is anything but innocent.
    The problem I have with Cagedsoul is that he refuses to acknowledge the truth and wants to sugarcoat everything.
    He made it sound like Pakistan is taking in Afgan people.Pakistani Government has been trying for years to get these people out of Pakistan.The Afgan people I saw in Pakistan r very very poor and the majority i saw live in tent cities.
    Something else about Pakistani people they pretend their $h!t don’t stink and the load of crap they try to sell you is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
    As far as religion I truly have to say most Pakistani people do not know what is in the Quran to be frank as they have never read it.
    I have asked my husband so many questions and he will flat tell me he don’t know.
    I finally started reading it here and there and I know more details on alot of things than he does and even I don’t know the Quran very well at all myself and am not muslim.They go to mosque listen to the Imams and whatever that Imam says thats what they pretty much roll with.
    Also in Pakistan Mosque are more Political than religious.
    I will tell u this much they r not a loyal or trustworthy nation and anyone that is crazy enough to mix up with them will regret later down the line.
    Ana I was the one to tell about the saying when someone tells u who they r believe them.
    Oprah Winfrey said that and I heard it and it really stuck with me as being a very true statement.
    It really goes well with if it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck it’s a DUCK.lol

  • Cagedsoul

    June 21, 2014

    Dear all!

    I end up with this conclusion that i have nothing more to add in this very subject.
    So i would prefer to withdraw myself from this page.
    It was a pleasure talking to you.
    I wish you all the best for your quest and hope you will find the answers which you are looking for.

    Thank you and Good bye.

  • ana

    June 21, 2014

    The Pakistani men who were just here should let women know they need to BEWARE of Pakistani men!

    Fatima,

    Sorry to burst your bubble.

    Polygamy can’t be worst than dealing with these so call “Muslims” I’ve been running into, especially born Muslims who don’t know their religion (Islam), and are now turning their backs on Islam based on the erroneous information they knew.

    Good Night All!

    For those who are inspired to talk, Insha Allah, I’ll stop back in later to check for comments. If not inspired, there is no sweat off my back. It is what it is…

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 21, 2014

    I have one last thing to say about the matter. Muslims, ESPECIALLY IN PAKISTAN, blame Islam for Muslims blowing themselves up while chanting, “Allah u Akbar”. The ignorant fools have never read Quran or they’d know Allah clearly in the Quran tells us not to kill ourselves. Those who kill themselves goes to the Hell Fire. These illiterates, ignoramuses, or whatever they are, kill themselves, thinking they will go to Jannah/Paradise and get some (hos-whores) Horrines -maidens. It’s asinine. Beautiful, pure, maidens will be in Paradise for the BELIEVERS.

    Yet, there are people, even on this blog, who commit shirk constantly, relying on Hadiths and culture. Muslim in these highly populated countries consisting of Muslims are in despicable, shameful, pathetic way, yet, just about no one anywhere can see that it’s because they have turned their backs on Allah. But, I’m the BAAAAAD person because I believe in Allah and what Allah says in the Holy Quran. I’m a bad person because I don’t go with Hadiths (he said, she said). Well, all you Muslims out there in these countries such as Pakistan – how are the Hadiths (shirk) working for you?

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    See what happens when Gail leaves to celebrate her anniversary? All Hell breaks loose.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    @Mrs.Diva, Wa Alaikum As Salaam,

    I’m glad you chimed in and shared your thoughts. You just confirmed I had made the right decision. Saad did come back, and was bashing me and the blog. So, I didn’t bother to post the comment. He came to our blog from where all the REJECTS go when I kick them off our blog. He can go back there. They take in anybody. The whole miserable lot of them go there, sit and complain about Islam, me, our blog.

    Insha Allah, you’ll visit with us more often, even if it’s only to say Hello and Salaam happy

    I intend to continue to run the blog as I have for the last 5 plus years. I know who comes here for their own good and the good of the blog. I know the riff raft, as well, that I usually don’t let in. Sometimes, I fall asleep and try to give people the benefit of the doubt or I think they’ve changed. I have to go with the saying that if someone shows you who they are, believe them. I can’t remember who on the blog said it.

    Anyhow, we’re all back on track. This isn’t a blog for any ole Tom, Dick, Harry, Jane, sue, or Debbie. We have an elite group of bright, intelligent, sensible people here and I will continue to be selective. I no longer, Insha Allah, will let down my guard. There are many other blogs out there for those type of low life people.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Mrs. Diva

    June 20, 2014

    ASA Ana,

    I rarely comment but I am always lurking around. I would like to chime in.

    Ana, PLEASE PLEASE don’t waste any more of your precious time with Saad and Sentorian. Because THEY are obviously the ones who are BRAINWASHED by all the anti-islam propaganda they see on TV. Why are they even here on a blog about polygamy? How did we go from polygamy to terrorism? I mean when I first read their posts I was honestly just…..speechless. The unmitigated gall of these two. Sheesh!

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Saad,

    Wrong!!! But you are a Muslim who have renounced your religion.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    June 20, 2014

    Wrong! people read Quran and hadiths are just a historical record of your prophet. if two people read quran not giving damn importance to hadiths like you, they will reach to different conclusions and i will love to be told otherwise.

    Ina, so you are telling me terrorism is our pakistani culture? and we like blowing people up for fun? is that what you are insinuating? All the terrorist groups believe in Islam and they cite Quran for their terrorist activities and derive inspirations from the sunnah of your prophet the way he drove people out of their lands after ‘revelation’ of surah tauba. and imposed Jizya tax on lives of jews and christians and made their lives living hell. and then his companions plundered and pillaged persian and byzantinian empires for wealth and women.

    Islam is responsible for patriarchal mindset of muslim men and that results in oppression.
    more over many educated muslims are already turning away from islam, so why western women are accepting Islam? because they are either fed up of their own religion or they have horrible lives and they feel wasted and they can’t deal with harsh realities of life and need an anchor/religion for that.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Saad,

    It’s the part no one is getting. They can’t comprehend. People are dismissing it. NO ONE READS THE QURAN. It’s not about varying interpretations. It’s not being read. NO ONE IS READING IT. They read Hadiths. People are passing down some he said she said stuff. They are trying to live life the way it was lived 1400 years ago or whenever. Culture is being lived.

    It’s not about Allah and His words – the Holy Quran.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    June 20, 2014

    cagedsoul

    i am from Islamabad Pakistan. And no, thanks god i am not from UK. on average worst pakistani expats are living in UK.

    For blog owner,
    problem with your religion is nobody speaks for it. do terrorists of tehreek e taliban Pakistan speak for it?
    or punjabi talibans or Alqaida or lashkar e tayiba or jaish e muhammad or jammat ud dawah or you or caged soul? who speaks for Islam? it is just a book that people have been reading and interpreting it differently. you have your interpretation caged soul has his own. and none of them is any less islamic it is just your choice what you want to believe in.

    problems in my pakistani society are real. and islam is responsible for horrors my people have been facing. because they are easily brain washed in the name of islam. first they jumped in “Jehad” of afghanistan as mercenaries of USA and fought against Russia now same group of people are blowing them selves up in Pakistan chanting Allah o Akbar.

  • Ina

    June 20, 2014

    Saad,

    You said” Islam is part of the problem at least in Pakistan’s context”. As Ana has pointed out numerous times, it is not the religion that is the problem but culture. It is the Pakistan culture because I see a different Islam in places like Malaysia. I went to Pakistan many years ago to attend my SIL’s wedding. I was not muslim then but I thought being a country with many muslims, I should dress conservatively, long sleeves, trousers, skirts etc. Instead when I arrived, it seemed like I was the only in long sleeves and the scarves are are hanging around their necks or barely covering their hair.

    No Islam > No terroism….do you really believe that? It is sad to think Islam is synonymous with terroism. In the UK, the IRA were the terroist. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela was once called a terroist…now a hero to many.

    With regards to women oppression, this is definitely cultural. Ask muslim women living in UK/USA/Malaysia if they feel oppressed because of their religion. The answer would be NO so how can it the religion that is the problem. Why are so many “western” women converting to Islam?

    @ Cagedsoul,
    Your blog name is interesting…mysterious…seems like you have sort of inner turmoil. I want to address something you said a few days. You said “If we need religion to understand basic human values like being humble or kind then there is something seriously wrong with us.” Wouldn’t it be great if everyone is born kind, humble, knows right from wrong then this would be perfect world. This means teenage girls should know not to have sex with another boy if they do not want a baby. Adults should know not to sleep around with multiple partners if they do not want STDs, girls should know that dressing provocatively may invite unwanted attention from men, men should know that a women dressing provocatively does not mean she wants to have sex on a drunken night out, etc. My conclusion from all this…there is something seriously wrong with the human race without religion.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Saad,

    What you said about “gender segregation” coincides with what I had said in a recent post to “Spirited.” No where in the Holy Quran does Allah say men and women are to be separate. NO WHERE!!!

    People use the ayats in the Quran that speak of who a man and woman can marry and who they can be in a state of undress with to say men and women must not be together. Although it’s not in the Holy Quran, they use material people have put together (Hadiths) to say it is Sunnah (The way of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Sunnah – the way of the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) – was the Holy Quran. It was the revelation Allah gave the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Allah didn’t authorize anything else. All His other Books were Books revealed to the other Prophets that Allah refers to in the Quran.

    This “gender segregation” is a major problem. It seems to me that in some countries men are so deprived from not being able to socialized with their sisters-in-faith, that when they see a woman they go ape Sh!T. They can’t control themselves. They feel a need to grab on her buttock or breast or rub up against her or whatever. It’s barbaric if you ask me. The only people being punished for crimes committed against them are the women/victims. It’s craaaazy!!! It makes no sense whatsoever. Allah does not say men and women, brothers and sisters in faith can’t communicate with one another. What? People can’t police themselves? People can’t exercise control over themselves? We need Islamic police? They don’t enforce anything in the Holy Quran. They enforce rules they create that are contrary to the Quran.

    I could go on, but it’s time for me to have dinner with Alex.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    @Cagedsoul,

    I apologized to you because I took personally what you said about “messy”. I’ve been upset for a while about what has transpired recently with some one from this blog. Thus, I think I overreacted when commenting to you. Anyhow, it water under the bridge now. It’s all good happy

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 20, 2014

    @ Ana

    for what? did something happen between us? sorry i have a bad memory.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Not too harsh, HARSH. Sorry!

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Cadgesoul,

    My humble apologies to you, if I was too harsh.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 20, 2014

    @ Ana

    Dear ana,

    when i said messy, it means we already discussed politics, these are things which should not be the part of this page. If we bring too much thing on table, it only create mess.
    When i mentioned to block me was because you describe a situation to me. I consider this page like any other page but every page has its own rules.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Cadgesoul,

    I didn’t say I was going to block you. I said it was no threat, so don’t get all touchy about it.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    June 20, 2014

    stentorian silence

    i am a pakistani and i believe Islam is part of the problem at least in pakistan’s context.
    Terrorists of Tehreek e Taliban Pakistan who have killed thousand’s of pakistani people in suicide bombings cite Quran as a reference to their terrorism.

    there is gender segregation because of Islam that results in societal problems in Pakistan. their is women oppression because of patriarchal mindset that is because of Islam.

    No islam> no terrorism
    No islam> no gender segregation in pakistan
    No islam> we will have no women’s oppression

    and maybe my post will not make it through because muslims are too coward to discuss their beliefs because they know their arguments will not stand up to scrutiny. and only thing they can do is to choke voices.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 20, 2014

    @ Ana

    What i said is my opinion. You are welcome to block me if i make you uncomfortable.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 20, 2014

    @ Saad

    I know my dear, i know people will only listen what they want to listen. I just feel too much obliged that this is not what we are, its a shame that few bad people have stronger voice than the rest. You know people will only see black stain on white cloth.

    yes majority of us sucks in what these women think we are good at.

    I completely agree with you, I will think about your advice. I am starting to sense that its no use.
    Are you from UK?
    have a nice weekend.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Cagedsoul,

    “messy” – REALLY – nice. I’m shaking my head. I don’t get it. People come in your home, insult you to your face, and expect there to be no repercussions. Don’t take it as a threat. I’m simply speaking my mind.

    Do you know there is a person who has been on this blog for years. Yes, YEARS, receiving support from all of us. I felt she was truly family. It was brought to my attention (people email me and let me know what’s happening out there on the web) that this person has slandered, back bited and turned on me like a sick dog. She went mad on me. Then girlfriend tries to get back here on my blog. She must be off her meds. sigh Anyhow, now I posted this and got it off my chest. She knows to stop trying to post, as this is not her home anymore. The new home she found, she better stay there and get very comfortable, as it will be a cold day in Hell before I open the door to her again. ITCH.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 20, 2014

    @ Stentorian-Silence,

    Bella bella

    Who are you my friend? I wish to answer your question but i cant. Its not the right place. This place is already so messy. It is a one on one discussion, here it will only create more problems.

    Regards happy

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Stentorian-Silence,

    I approved your comment; although it’s not up for a FULL debate here. It’s not the forum for it. Your questions have no relevance to polygamy. I know I probably opened the door for your questions. It’s not your fault. I like your questions and how you phrased them.

    I must state Islam is not the problem. People are the problem. Muslims don’t follow the Quran. It’s that simple. When the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) past away, people began to do their own thing again. They created their own rules and beliefs, none of which has anything to do with the Holy Quran.

    About the sects you referred to, Allah in the Holy Quran clearly tells us not to divide ourselves into sects, as we are one brotherhood. No one listens to Allah. Consequently we have mega sects of people calling themselves Muslims all with their various views, opinion, ideas, and beliefs. All of them think they have the correct beliefs, as it satisfy their desires. What they have devised they call it Islam. Muslim are fighting and killing Muslims and non-Muslims.

    What these people are all about and what they believe has nothing to do with the Quran and Islam. Some Muslims have never read a Quran. Some have absolutely no knowledge of what is in a Quran. Muslim have created and written their own Books (Hadiths) to follow. They say it is Sunnah. They say one can’t have the Quran without a Hadith. It’s a major, unforgivable SIN. You said Islam is the problem. NO, it most certainly is not. Is Christianity, Judaism, or the Mormon faith the problem? No it’s people.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    June 20, 2014

    cagedsoul

    winking

    Are you naive?
    don’t you see people already believe we are players?

    And we are supposed to be taught “cheaters 101″ and “how to charm women 101″ even though majority of us may suck at it.

    so what’s the point being good to people when your goodness is seen as Evil in disguise?

    People choose to see good and evil in others. Baroness warsi parents hail from my village. and i don’t suppose her father was a player like we are supposed to be. And spirited’s damned husband is face of our people but why not her father (or maybe he was not taught above mentioned courses)?

    It is very interesting, when good intelligent muslims(scientist, doctors, engineers) are denouncing their faith dumbest of people abroad are accepting it. who can’t even defend their religion with out banning people. And are quick to judge their fellow muslims

  • Stentorian~Silence

    June 20, 2014

    “One day i asked him, you sunnah people call Shia’s kaffir, you have to show the proof that you are muslim before telling us is not. He answered me that my mind is blocked.”

    One problem with religions like Islam is that there are so many denominations they don’t seem to be on the same page. I would say the minds of Muslims are indeed blocked, if they open it they may even come to question their religion and ultimately reject it, since Islam requires unquestionable unreasonable blind faith. Why would an alleged ‘perfect’ system would have so many offshoots?

    Cagedsoul, don’t you believe Islam is the main cause of the demise of the Muslim countries like Pakistan? Don’t you believe a secular society wouldn’t have to deal with this religion denomination mess? Don’t you believe this Islamic concept of Ummah has proved to be a colossal failure? That in the last 1,400 years or so Muslims are just fighting everyone and each other?

    I know Europe passed through Dark Ages ones. Renaissance changed everything. I believe Muslims are passing through their Dark Ages as well, and the only way to attain prosperity is to reject religion.

    If you look at the world, nearly every welfare state is secular. Do we really need Islam to become good people?

    Other than giving people a false sense of security after death, and to make them run after sensual rewards, I don’t believe Islam brings anything new to the table. We should be pragmatic and ‘absorb what is useful and reject what is useless.’

    “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful” – Seneca.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    @Fatima,

    As I stated in the post: “I in no way assert that every Pakistani man is as I described above. I simply want you to note that based on all the information I have received on this blog, I have learned there are very many Pakistani men who have done all that I indicated above. We all know nothing is absolute except our Creator. I simply urge all women to beware when they consider a marriage to a Pakistani Man.”

    I indicated, “It’s a serious enough problem that the Muslim minister Baroness Warsi has spoken on it. Click link below:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9275179/Some-Pakistani-men-see-white-women-as-fair-game-says-Baroness-Warsi.html

    Perhaps people who are offended need to contact the minister Baroness Warsi, as well.

    Fatima and everyone and anyone else out there in cyberspace who may take offense, what I’ve written about is a problem that exist and this post lets women know they should investigate closely the man they intend to marry or get mixed up with, the same as any woman should investigate any man. There are certain things to consider and be on the look out for.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 20, 2014

    We all might have issues in a polygamy marriage but it shouldnt matter where anyone is from in this world, or who they are.. The fact is polygamy can happen to a pakastani,Jewish,indian,indonesian, american.malaysian.. etc..
    that does not mean that one specific ethnic is worse then the other is my meaning.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 20, 2014

    @ Ana.. I have to say I Agree with cagedsoul as the topic on Marry a pakistan man beware.. I myself was surprised when I first saw that. You were pointing directly at pakastani men, which can be offensive.. You may have heard stories on here from some of the Ladies who were married to pakastan men who unfortunately were not good to them, but personally speaking, any man can be like that.. but your topic directly pointed a finger at pakastani men to be aware of them…But not all are bad.. but your topic gave the impression that they are…thats what im tryng to explain.. so I can see how this can look offensive..just my opinion..

  • Cagedsoul

    June 20, 2014

    Well, i dont think there is no light. What you saw or read is not how we perceive things in Pakistan.
    Anyway, its not important for you to know our understanding towards our problems and its not even healthy for your blog to have such discussion here.
    One important thing, Pakistan people don’t like if someone shows sympathy to them, its a great offense and especially it if comes from US.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Cadgedsoul,

    I just reread my post to you and had to laugh. It sounds that I said “I could only imagine how hurtful it is for many of the people of Pakistan.” that “I can sit here and read all that people say about the people and the country of Pakistan, but at the end of the day, it really doesn’t affect me. I’m not Pakistani. My husband is not Pakistani. I don’t associate with any Pakistanis other than on this blog.” LOL I know Pakistani’s are not feeling hurt by what how I feel and think about Pakistan. LOL

    It’s not always easy to get our points across on the blog to where they make sense. Our dear friend Gail may not make it here on the blog today, as it’s her wedding anniversary.

    This is an open house. No need to knock.Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    @Cadgesoul,

    Thank you for your response. I understand that you have strong feelings and love for your country the same as I do about the United States. It makes perfectly good sense. I just sit back and read about and see online and TV all the problems that are in Pakistan and there seems to be no way out for the people. It seems no one has an interest in the people, as no one seems to be trying to make it better for the people or make Pakistan a better country. It seems no one has recognized what has caused the country to be in the condition that it is. People are NOT coming together to try to make things right. It seems a hopeless case. There seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel. It’s a continual tunnel of darkness.

    Personally, I can sit here and read all that people say about the people and the country of Pakistan, but at the end of the day, it really doesn’t affect me. I’m not Pakistani. My husband is not Pakistani. I don’t associate with any Pakistanis other than on this blog. I could only imagine how hurtful it is for many of the people of Pakistan.

    Again, thank you much for your reply. I appreciate it.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 20, 2014

    @ Ana

    I think i have to speak today in a direct way.

    I was not aware that i am in a group of converted muslims.
    To you may be its a world but to me its a religion just like any other and i am part of it.
    I am born muslim and i have no intention to change my religion.
    Polygamous, we dont consider it a problem. its a choice. No, i never think about it for myself.

    Now real question is about pakistani people, it is the sole reason i came to this page as others doesnot belong to my circus.
    bad people are in every socity, so in ours.
    I try to tell people good part of our socity. and i try to be good.
    Nobody predict future but i live my 95% life in Pakistan.
    My country is my pride.It is my first ever identity after born as a human. But that doesnot mean i dont like where i am now.
    Pakistan is a country who has 1.6 million refugees and immigrants from Afghanistan.Its more than any other country have.
    They are in our country since 80′s.
    we are facing problems like terrorisam, extremisam and drugs.
    These problem started with first afghan war.
    If you have interest in history than you probably know, why.
    You are muslim, its fine but it doesnot make any difference to me. Ana is more than enough.

    Blaming pakistani people for an individual’s action is like blaming germans for hitler actions.

    I have friends from every where and from every religion and also without religion, they all are super cool people.
    I love them the way they are. If someone likes you because you change yourself for him/her than you have to rethink your choice.

    Ah,i dont write intentionally the way i write.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    It’s funny; one of the terms a person put in the search and found the blog was: “Pakistani boy runs away with my girlfriend” LOL

    Well, my bed is calling me, so I’m off to the boudoir. It’s 4:27 a.m. in my part of the world and I am going to try to get some shut eye. Insha Allah, I’ll see you all after 11:00 a.m.

    @Gail,

    Again, HAPPY ANNIVERSARY sis!

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 20, 2014

    Cagedsoul

    I don’t know anything about “Sharia Law” or the Sunnah sect you referred to. I don’t identify with any sect. I’d imagine you know what’s happening in Iraq today with the sects, which Allah tells us not to divide ourselves up in. I don’t separate Islam in my life. Islam is my life and my “culture.” So, I will speak about it quite frequently here. You should know it by now. It’s been this way for the last 5 years and four months.

    Anyhow, what is your story? Are you a Muslim? Are you married? Are you polygamous? If not, do you have a desire to be polygamous? Do you have any intention of going back to Pakistan? Do you have any idea how as a Pakistani man you could HELP rectify the mess in Pakistan that some of your brothers are making? OR do you simply want to philosophize and sound poetic or something?

    Tells us some more about you and your life. Forgive me if you mentioned any of it along the way and you lost me.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 20, 2014

    I didnot say even once what is right or wrong. I only know what is right or wrong for me and i follow strongly what i believe,
    Are we here to talk about Sharia law? i am sorry but my understanding is different. The only thing what i was trying to explain is let people chose their path and if they are wrong they will end up finding the right path but it should be their choice not because of fear of expressing their opinion.
    You remind me one of my childhood teacher who use to taught me Quran. He was from Sunnah sect.
    “One day i asked him, you sunnah people call Shia’s kaffir, you have to show the proof that you are muslin before telling us who is not. He answered me that my mind is blocked.”
    The only understanding i have is, every religion is in the book and what people do is their interpretation of the book. This interpretation could be individual or collective, it doesnot matter.
    If we need religion to understand basic human values like being humble or kind than there is something seriously wrong with us.

  • ana

    June 19, 2014

    Gail,

    To Cagedsoul, you said, “are u one of those Muslims where anything goes between prayers?Just asking.” Crying with Laughter

    “Do u think that Mr GQ Pakistani man don’t know his family rules?” MSN laughing “GQ” I haven’t heard that one in a good long while.

    You’re right, Gail. The majority of us here, including moi (me) didn’t sign up for this (polygamy). Sh!t happens hee hee

    Oh, Gail, by the way, I got that saying, “You better check yourself before you wreck yourself” from my wali/bestess’ mom. I first heard her say it. It may be ole school LOL

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    June 19, 2014

    Cagedsoul

    So u think that is cool that Allijah thinks having several boyfriends at once is ok?The way she talks on the Blog it seems she believes in Polymory.
    I was under the assumption u were muslim.Was I wrong to assume that or are u one of those Muslims where anything goes between prayers?Just asking.
    There is nothing different about Allijah.Most girls are the exact same like her.Prancing around shaking there goods and smiling and flirting with the men enjoying free love.What is so different about that?

    Allijah,
    You seem to be a nice girl but believe me when I tell u the little bit I read from your post u have a serious problem with mixing up with men.I don’t mean the flirting part or even having 2 or 3 or even 4 men.I am talking about u have this insane idea that this Pakistani guy u r mixing up with is going work out.Pakistani men r very very controlling just ask your new friend cagesoul just how controlling Pakistani men are!You really think you guy is any different.If u go down this road u will get burned.
    First of all His mother is going to want him to marry a nice virgin/muslim girl from his family.Do u fit that description?The odds are soooo far against u in this matter.The only way his family is going to agree to this kind of marriage since u r divorced is if they need immigration to your country for their son.Now that u said he don’t need immigration then what use r u to that family?
    Do u think mommy and daddy give a r@ts @$$ about your love?Do u think that Mr GQ Pakistani man don’t know his family rules?
    Now that u have stated u don’t agree with Polygamy then WTF are u doing playing with fire?
    I hate to say this but it seems to me u have this flirty innocent way about u that is going to get u into big trouble.
    I am telling u straight if by some miracle he does marry u which I doubt he will but lets say he does u better get ready for Polygamy sister because his mom and sisters and family are going to badger him to take a Pakistani cousin wife.
    The odds r way way against u.With odds like that and your not being a Muslim and hanging with other men Yeah NOOOOOOOOOOO his mommy is going to blow a gasket.So my advice to u is get real before u end up in a screwed up mess like Spirited and I and some of the others.
    What do u think we got married and woke up one day and said OH I think I would like my husband to be polygamous YEAHHH NOOOOO.
    Open your eyes and see reality for what it is.
    Are husbands fed us hook line and sinker.Oh baby u r so nice u r so sweet.I can’t wait to see u.Runs when we call.So attentive etc… It is all an act.
    Anyway as Ana I think it is that says “You better check yourself before you wreck yourself”.

  • Spirited

    June 19, 2014

    Salaam all,

    @Ana, its not rocket science to think that a non-mehram woman and man alone with each other in a romantic frame of mind will commit zina. Please go back to what I wrote in the entire post and see that I didn’t make any reference to Quran on purpose. The two people I was replying to speak in terms of culture, so I also replied in terms of culture. I didn’t find any reason to quote Quran to those who aren’t interested anyway.

    I never said no muslim woman should speak to a man. At the same time, don’t try to tell me that it ISN’T wrong to be in a romantic “relationship” and men meeting women without a wali or guardian or chaperone present.

    I already know Allijah is not muslim and she doesn’t care about religion. I was talking about her Pakistani “boyfriend” (who I assume should be muslim, but probably is just muslim in name only if even that) — recall that I said he was digging HIS own grave.

    Ace didn’t speak about religion at all and used culture and “pressures” to defend his type of men, and I believe I didn’t really go into religion at all with my reply to his points. happy
    Okie dokie, that should clear it up.

  • ana

    June 19, 2014

    @Spirited,

    I’m glad you spoke of a man and woman who are in each others company when no one else is present (except you stated Satan is with them). I’d like to expound on it.

    I’d like to ask you and anyone for that matter, where in the Holy Quran does Allah say a male and a female who are not married or a family member cannot be alone together? I’m not talking any “He said, she said stuff” or any other material that is NOT in the Quran or any material that people think has to go along with the Quran (shirk). I’m asking about what is in the Holy Quran – the word of Allah.

    Allah tells us in the Holy Quran who we can MARRY and who we can be in a stated of UNDRESS with. He does not say anything about a man and a woman not being able to be in each other’s company. He tells us to lower our gaze, yes. We should not lust after ANYTHING.

    You say Satan is present when a male and a female are alone together and are not married, nor a family member. Satan is present ALL the time with non-Muslims AND with ANYONE who is not in the remembrance of Allah. Allah says anyone who is not in the remembrance of Him, He gives them an evil companion(Satan).

    You spoke nothing of what Allah says in the Holy Quran. Allah says He protects the Believer. You spoke nothing of the Recording angels that are with us. You spoke nothing of the Protecting Angels that are with the Believers.

    Here we go with CULTURE again or how people did things hundreds of years ago. If people today live in countries in which barbaric, heathen Muslim men live, yes, the women should not be out without protection. If, for instance, women live in countries in which they are raped and then stoned for being raped, yes, they better not leave their homes without protection. If a woman lives in a county in which (Muslim) men throw acid in their faces, they better not go out without protection. If a woman lives in a country in which a man is going to ride up next to her on a camel, scoop her up and run off with her, she better not be out without protection.

    I live in the good U.S. of A. I will go out and be amongst MALES and females, and guess what? I will have protection. I am a believing woman and Allah will protect me exactly as He says He will. I will have my protecting Angels with me. I believe Allah and what He says. I am a Believer.

    I don’t need the Islamic Police.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 19, 2014

    @Spirted, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    I need to comment on a statement you made to Allijah. You stated, “whenever a non-mehram man and non-mehram woman are alone together, there’s always a third party present — Satan.”

    First, I want to mention that I doubt Allijah cares anything about “Satan” in any shape, form or fashion. She may not even believe there is a Satan. Even if she believes there is a Satan, if she does not obey Allah and worship Allah as He tells us to in the Holy Quran, nothing else matters. Allijah won’t go to the Hell Fire because she chats with her little boyfriend while alone with him. She will go to the Hell Fire, for not doing EVERYTHING Allah swt tells us to do in the Holy Quran.

    As she is not Muslim, I don’t know why anyone speaks to her about Islam unless she asks, as she clearly cares nothing about Islam. One is wasting their breath to pester her with it. Someone else was here once and someone quoted some Quran to her; she responded by saying she is not Muslim so don’t spout out to her about Islam. Those weren’t her exact words, but you get the gist of it.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 19, 2014

    @ Alijaah

    girl, what have you done? the mob is behind you.
    Anyways, i didnot read your post and it really doesnot matter what you wrote as i always like those people who chose to walk on the path which majority consider wrong.
    I have a story to share with you:
    When i was young and in my school, my father wished me to be an engineer. He use to say these people earn good wage, and have better career than others.
    I went against his will, i choose business. when i finished my degree and went to market for job, it took me year to find a job. Than after few years, economic crisis hit the market and i got fired at that time i was in my second job. Than i change my country in order to improve my skills in business but my recession cycle continues. During that time period every time i talked to my father he said the same thing “if you chose what i told you, you would be in good position.”
    I listened to him than few years back i told him ” it is not possible for me to define myself according to your definition.Let me chose, what i think is right for me.” He went silent.
    This story has nothing to do with you except my understanding towards life. I have a firm belief that your life belongs to you because it has been given to you. Most people never let miracles happen to them because they are so scared of making mistakes or making new mistakes. Have you seen “oblivion” he make one single mistake to take the book, that changed his life. People who advise you can only tell what is good for them not for you.
    You are not a slave and besides who knows how long we going to survive so have a life which you think is waiting for you.
    But be prepare to accept the results. As for me, i never regret what i chose to be, after all that’s what we call free will.

    Have a fantastic day or evening.

  • Gail

    June 19, 2014

    Ana,
    I am really worried about Jenny also.I wish she would let us know how she is doing.More than her dear grandmother passing I am worried about her surgery if she had it and how she is doing.
    As far as worrying about what u say to Jenny I wouldn’t think to much about it she also knows we r all different and have different thought processes.
    I know u care deeply and respect Jenny.
    I MISSS JENNY TOOOOO!!!
    You know one thing though it is so weird how we all lead different lives but have this strange connection.I really have come to depend on you girls and think of u as my friends as strange as that sounds.I just notice even though we fight and bicker like sisters we have this strange connection.
    I was thinking about that girl Cindy who was on the blog last year.She was married to a Pakistani man and I think he was like a drinker and she had some kids and some kids by him.Been married to him like forever.Do u remember who I am talking about?I wonder what every happen to her?I don’t know why but out of the blue I thought about her and wondered how she was doing.
    Also I am worried if I hurt or disturbed Kim when I mentioned about Kashmir.I feel bad at times to and think to myself dang maybe that was not the right time to crap in her Cherios if u know what I mean.
    I worry about her alot also.I just hope she finds Peace and Happiness in her life.
    As far as my hubby and I we r getting along GREAT and have been for awhile now.I know it comes across in my writing at times that I am miserable but really I am not.
    It is just hard on me dealing with my inlaws all the time and their culture issues other than that I am doing pretty good.
    Hubby took me out for shopping to the mall and I bought 3 new outfits and 2 pairs of sandals for anniversary gift.Then he took me to Chili’s to Eat!
    We had a great time and will be going to TGI FRIDAYS on r actual Anniversary on the 20th.

  • Spirited

    June 19, 2014

    Salaam guys,

    I just had to pop in before I hit the bed. (turned on my pc and everything laughing ). This topic just gets me riled up, lol

    @Ace117, welcome to the blog, and thanks for sharing your views. I’m warning you right now, this may seem harsh, but much of what you wrote rubbed me the wrong way, so I felt I had to add my thoughts.

    Like Gail said, with the levels of insanity that goes on in Pakistan, OF COURSE parents would want to try to arrange marriages in their families because at least (presumably) they know the guy as he grew up and know his character, know his family, and so on. They won’t have to worry about their daughter being beaten regularly or sold/used as a sex slave or even killed. Its not “drama” because its reality. When you have a daughter, Insha’Allah, I would love to see if you would consider her safety a matter of “drama.”

    If the man doesn’t want to get into a marriage with a certain person, he has every right to say NO. Allah doesn’t compel anyone to marry someone they don’t agree to marry. Its the guy’s own weakness if he doesn’t object. Why does he only feel guilty or unfaithful if he wants to say no? Why does the man NOT feel guilty or unfaithful when he decides to lie to his entire family and his wife and have affairs/adultery with non-muslims, if he’s such a conscious person? Its a load of B.S., that’s why. No one put a gun to you guys’ heads to sign the nikah papers. No one puts a gun to your heads in your bedroom, to have sex with a woman you claim you didn’t want to marry (making it almost impossible for her to re-marry anyway).

    And did you ever bother to think about the woman? Most likely she’s a virgin and the man is her first and so she is biologically and emotionally going to be so in love with him. How do you think she would feel knowing he’s rejecting her after using her just because he wants to chase after some non-muslim from another country? How do you think she feels being left apart for YEARS from this man she loves while he’s in another country, whoring himself up? I don’t know how these women have the strength to stay sane; they’re really very strong.

    And this insinuation that women in Pakistan AREN’T “kind, straight-forward, honest, etc.” ? Wow, unbelievable. I’ve met PLENTY of honest, trustworthy and pleasant women in Pakistan. Its always the men you have to watch out for over there, and no wonder. By the way, try polishing those “precious” [NON-MUSLIM] “gem stones” you’re so fascinated by. Keep following your desires and ignore Allah’s rules and you’ll get what you deserve. I’ve already seen so many examples of Allah’s anger on these kinds of men through their children (most of the time, the children aren’t muslim because of the non-muslim wife).

    IF I am admitted to Heaven, (Insha’Allah, I really, truly try to do my best to be found worthy of being in any level of it!) I would love to one day ask to see all these stupid so-called Muslim men and their beloved “gem stones” cooking away in eternal fire. Imbeciles. rolling eyes When will you people wake up and realize what you’re doing? When you’ve been put in your grave? Guess what, it’ll be way too late by then. Maybe you forget, death WILL come to everyone.

    You want to know why Pakistan can’t get its act together? Its because of the selfish, idiotic men that run the country, without regard to the fact that they’re supposed to be following Islam. Instead, they’re still in the slave mentality of when the British ruled them — obsessing over light-skinned, non-muslims who they consider their superiors. Its honestly pathetic. I’ve seen the behavior of Paki men myself when I’ve been there; they almost fall over each other to please me because they think I’m a “white Amrikan”. You can bet for sure that if Islam was followed correctly in Pakistan, you wouldn’t have 70%+ of the population in poverty (because zakaat would be paid out PROPERLY), you wouldn’t have men behaving the way they do (because you would remember Allah’s rules of modesty), you wouldn’t have to pay bribes to get anything done (you would remember Muslims do no make promises they don’t intend to keep and do not lie — this would also help with the poverty situation). My grandmother used to tell me that Pakistan used to be good (she was there when Pakistan was formed, and did the migration from India to the new Pakistan) but the country sure wasn’t the right way when she passed a few years ago.

    This kind of misguided attempt by these Paki guys at pleasing the women who read this blog really upsets me, and I have to admit, I don’t feel sorry if I’m being harsh right now. You guys who come here with attempted flirting, inane compliments, and trying to blame the society, your parents, or the poor women who have almost no power, you really need to get a reality check. Take responsibility for your own actions and maybe put yourself in someone else’s shoes for once in your selfish, lust-filled lives.

    Alright, I think I got that out of my system laughing
    Feel free to continue to comment. I know on my end, I intend to keep the message clear for any woman reading, so they don’t get distracted by any “sweet” words thrown at them.

    @Allijah, so…polygamy is wrong, but your “polyamory” is right? Plus, this Paki guy you’re always gushing about, he DOES realize Allah doesn’t allow whatever it is you two are doing? Well, no skin off my back. Just another moron digging his own grave. As the saying goes, “whenever a non-mehram man and non-mehram woman are alone together, there’s always a third party present — Satan.” I’m sure you two enjoy his company. rolling eyes

    Again, I don’t really care right now if I’m being harsh, I’ve seen that sometimes its just necessary. Ana also said that though she was hardly as harsh as I think I’m being in this post. Ana, I don’t feel that you had to apologize or explain your thoughts/post. Your posts are a good kick in the pants sometimes, and we all out here in cyberspace could do with the harshness from time to time. (imagine me doing a thumbs up here).

    Ok, that said, I’m gonna hit the ‘ole hay. Goodnight all.

  • ana

    June 18, 2014

    Gail,

    I’m with you when you say, “it is like seeing the world through each others eyes on the blog.” I see a heck of a whole lot. I continue to learn and I see growth in myself. I just know I’m running out of time on this earth and I feel I have a long ways to go in getting myself where I want to be. I feel I’m running out of time. Time is not on my side.

    About Allijah. I can only shake me head. It baffles me to hear her say she has got four boyfriends and then hear her dog out polygamy (a respectable institution of marriage) and repeat some whacked stuff about Islam and the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is beyond my comprehension. If it’s true that some country near where she lives have Muslim inhabitants that think as she said they do sigh. WOW!!!

    Gail, Insha Allah, you’ll feel better quickly. I’m beginning to get very concerned about Jenny. We haven’t heard from her in a while now. I know I haven’t been the kindest person to her on the blog with my comments in the past (with my views), but I care much about her. Insha Allah, she’ll pop in soon.

    Allijah,

    Carry on and speak your mind. Just try to bear with me, if I FLIP the *(^$ out.

    This is an open house no need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    June 18, 2014

    Ana,
    I didn’t know what to say to Allijah without sounding like a broken record so I just left it.
    As far u speaking your mind I like that about u the same as u like about me.You give me alot to think about at times.
    I don’t know if u realize it or not but it is like seeing the world through each others eyes on the blog I think cagedsoul had a good story today that kinda ties into how we all see the world through are own eyes.
    I ate some left over fajita’s I made the other day BAD MISTAKE my stomach feels like crap.

  • ana

    June 18, 2014

    For those who wonder why I made that face rolling eyes to Allijah, it’s because when she said that a husband is not suppose to have sexual relations with his 1st wife after he takes a second wife, it is silly, foolish, ridiculous, non-sense. It is hogwash. It makes no sense whatsoever. It’s straight up bull-sh!t.

    I’m sorry. I can’t keep my mouth shut about it. And you know what? I don’t have to. So for all those people who say Ana gets upset when people don’t believe as she believes or agrees with her – so what? It’s very difficult for me to listen to crazy talk on this blog. I can go click out of another blog when I read senseless talk, but I can’t click out of here; although at times I’d like to click out forever.

    Those are my thoughts. For those who don’t like it, there are blogs out there for people who like to critique Ana and Polygamy 411. They should rename their blog and call it “About Ana”.

    The beautiful thing about it is that when they talk about me and my blog, they drive traffic to my site here. It’s free advertising. Making funny face with Poked Out Tongue It’s all good and better!

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 18, 2014

    Allijah rolling eyes

  • Allijah

    June 18, 2014

    Ace117

    thank you for the “precious like gem stones” part. Totally agreeing with you ! happy Was really nice reading that. Coming from a country where women are often forced into marrying cousins or relatives, for reasons of money staying in the family, i so understand that. Most of my female friends have extra men on the side outside of their marriage, as I know for a fact that so does the husband.

    The thing is that most people do what they do to keep up apparences and keep everybody happy all over the world.

    Gail,

    I never said anything about your marriage. I was speaking of my own experience, my PERSONAL experience, and that of my friends. Please don’t take things so personally. happy

    In the situation of which I am speaking, the spouse would no longer have ANY MARITAL RELATIONSHIP with the 1st wife or husband. That has to stop indeed in my opinion. Even if one does not tell about the forced upon husband or wife, it goes without saying that no physical relationship should continue if the man or the woman is engaging in physical/ sexual relationships with someone else.

    A Muslim neighbouring country of where I was born does have polygamy. But IT means that the man is FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE for the women and their children’s needs. Once a second wife comes along, THERE IS NO MORE SEX, KISSING, NOTHING OF THE KIND! And the qst wife can remarry someone else. This is how that country interprets the Quran. In fact they think that even that much should not be allowed, as Mohammed said that one should only marry a second wife, IF he can love both in the same way.. which clearly NOBODY CAN.. SO TO THEM IT MEANS DON’T DO POLYGAMY ! so it is all down to one’s expectations, and standards.

    This all just illustrates the point that POLYGAMY is WRONG for me. Allah or GOD never said it was fine for a man to have intercourse with several women at the same time, no matter if he called it wife/ cowife or what so ever…. INTERCOURSE WITH TWO WOMEN OR WOMEN AT THE SAME TIME IS…. SIN! period. Check out the Bible for further details, or your own inner knowning.

    Bottom line for me is that POLYGAMY IS WRONG, it was invented by a HUMAN! came from a HUMAN MAN, who had quite a lot going on with under age girls among others.

    Some men just hate women, it must be an ancestral wound, perhaps their mother had no time for them, whatever, i don’t know why relgious people and politicians insist on humiliating women by any means. It just is, it does not mean that it is right.

    Hope things make more sense now that I have explained the backgrond of it.

    Have a good evening everybody! Middle of a heat wave here.. awwrr.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 18, 2014

    I loved tbe story about the 2 sick men in the hospital.
    I shared this story with my friends this morning..
    Thankyou for sharing.. happy

  • Gail

    June 18, 2014

    I would like to mention really quickly though that My inlaws have done both types of marriages in the family and out of family marriages.All the family marriages ended in divorce which adds up to 4 divorces and 1 in family engagement called off.
    Outside the family marriages are lasting 3 of my sister inlaws r married to 3 brothers in the same family and all have been happy marriages lasting over 12 years and still going strong all those marriages.
    My husband and I have been married 11 years and although I don’t express it we for the most part have a strong marriage.Only my older brother inlaw he did inside family marriage and outside marriage to a USA girls and both marriages failed.So he will do third marriage outside the family.There will not be anymore inside the family marriages with my inlaws BUT my inlaws want inside family marriage with each other.LOL Which is sooooo STUPID!!!Because they know it don’t work.

  • Gail

    June 18, 2014

    Ace117,
    I will tell u what I know of it from my experience.
    There is actually kinda a valid reason as to why they do marry in the family or have a connection when they marry.It has to do with protecting their daughters.
    When and if they marry outside the family to an unknown person they do not know anything about that family.Yes u can do a background check but still they don’t know the inner working inside the home of that family and when u marry outside the family well to be blunt their daughter is always on risk of being a punching bag for that family or worse if they do not like her and don’t want divorce understand.There hearts are in the right place as far as protecting their daughters even though it seems like it is not.
    Lets look at the recent killing in Lahore of the girl who went against her family and married the man that murdered his first wife to marry her.
    Well Obviously her marriage was not a good choice and she went against her family knowing 100% full well they would not tolerate her disloyalty to the family.
    Obviously they tried to get her back.I am certain her husband mesmerized her etc… and told her he loved her and she was all he thinks about etc..the girl being young and Pakistan on the verge of change where couples r running off and getting married I am pretty certain she did not think past her husbands sweet comments and if she did relate her fears about her family to him I am sure he sugar coated it.Otherwise she would have never walked away from her family.
    I also have this feeling her family life was hard but that is neither here not there The fact is she made a choice to disgrace her family by walking with unknown/out of the family man.So she paid the price period the end. It doesn’t matter right or wrong that is just the way it is in Pakistan.Go against the family pay the price.It is an unspoken RULE and EVERYONE knows it.
    Another reason they marry in the family which is also a good reason is to keep the wealth in the family.
    In Pakistan when u do marriage the boy don’t just marry the girl.It is an understood RULE that the boy will give the girl money and she will give money to her family.Again don’t matter right or wrong that is just the way it is sooo obviously it is easier on the brain if the girl and her family r already family members.Like her father inlaw is also her uncle.Obviously he will not mind so much if she give money to her mother who is her father inlaw sister understand? Excuse my FRENCH here but it just “Makes Eating $hit Go Down Smoother” if they r family already because helping family is expected in Pakistani Culture.If the girls is outside the family then obviously the mind goes negative and her MIL or FIL will say why u help your family so much your brothers are not working tell them to WORK and support your parents.Girl has to see her family with her parents hands held out for money because if her husband kicks her off she has to go back to her family.It is a vicious cycle that just keeps repeating over and over again from one generation to the next.
    SO for these reason they try to keep their daughters in the family.
    I don’t know if u r Pakistani or not but I hope my explanation helps u to understand.

  • Gail

    June 18, 2014

    Allijah,
    I am sorry but I disagree with you 100% about what u said in your post about being married and having a pathetic life.Listen now I lived that life u described about hiding a marriage to get your love.
    That is not love that is lusting after your own desires.My husband lusted after me he was not in LOVE with me at that time.Yes he fell in love after but don’t make is twisted.\
    Look it is so simple He was married fine.All he had to do was say Gail I am married and Polygamy is allowed.I want to marry you and bring my family to USA.
    OK now Obviously there is a huge chance I might have said NO but there is also a chance I might have said ok but we will never know because my husband did not trust me enough to explain his situation to me.
    OK i accept that he had no intention to divorce me BUT thats not good enough for me because he took away my freedom to choose understand.He presented himself as a divorced single man.That is what attracted me to him.It was unfair for him to assume that I would accept Polygamy in the future.
    Now lets examine the word LOVE for a minute shall we?
    LOVE can mean many different things to alot of people but to me personally LOVE means LOYALTY,TRUST,CARING these are three strong words I would use to define LOVE.LYING,CHEATING,STEALING defined as LOVE.
    Are u following me here.
    My husband claimed he loved me as he was doing all these things to me over a period of 8 yrs.
    DO u see that as LOVE because I don’t I view it as he lusted after what I had and what I could do for him.
    Now in saying all this I have forgiven him but for the rest of my life I will remember what he did not because I choose to but because I am raising my excowife children and I have to look into their faces every day knowing had their father made different choices and been brave we could have had a different outcome.
    Had my excowife been brave and cared enough to tell me it would have been different for her also.

  • Ace117

    June 18, 2014

    this is a big issue and i really want to get to the bottom of it to crack the real reasons behind it.

    It is always desired in family that they should be arranged with a relative within a family thats was 70% happens in pakistan. or neighbour,or a fathers best friends daughter,someway connected. i think this is because there are lot of insecurities people feel and in pakistan where there is always some drama every body talk about.

    and you know if a boy rejects the arrangement then he is pointed out as unfaithful to parents,shame to family or someway make him feel extremly guilty to which ultimately have to give in.and women over there are also very influencial especially middle class.

    when these men go abroad,they discover women who are kind,stright forward,honest etc every thing they wanted and couldnt get from their women they fall in love with them and dont want to loose them.these women are precious like jem stones to them.

    yes of course there are others who only want passports,this is the category that destory the image of pakistanis and are indirectly cause of their women behaving in controlling way.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 18, 2014

    @ Fatima

    So you are from Louisville KFC. I use to eat when i was in my teenage. I think it was the biggest mistake of my life that i become adult. I should stay there where the only worry i had was to pass in exam. Now there are to many.

    We have 6 hour time difference so its evening. But sun come out in midnight. Its world cup season and sleeping late and waking up early is normal. I would better stick with poetry because than i stay safe by explaining myself. Everybody knows poets are fucked up, imaginative and like to live far from reality.

    Just enjoying the break of every political, economical and cultural discussion.

    Have a great day.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 18, 2014

    Its a nice day and i have nothing to say except a story to share. I read it today. I think i am a dreamer, but i see with open eyes as i rarely had a dream in sleep.

    “Two men, both seriously ill, occupied the same hospital room.

    One man was allowed to sit up in his bed for an hour each afternoon to help drain the fluid from his lungs.

    His bed was next to the room’s only window.

    The other man had to spend all his time flat on his back.

    The men talked for hours on end.

    They spoke of their wives and families, their homes, their jobs, their involvement in the military service, where they had been on
    vacation..

    Every afternoon, when the man in the bed by the window could sit up, he would pass the time by describing to his roommate all the things he could see outside the window.

    The man in the other bed began to live for those one hour periods where his world would be broadened and enlivened by all the activity and color of the world outside.

    The window overlooked a park with a lovely lake.Ducks and swans played on the water while children sailed their model boats. Young lovers walked arm in arm amidst flowers of every color
    and a fine view of the city skyline could be seen in the distance.

    As the man by the window described all this in exquisite details, the man on the other side of the room would close his eyes and imagine this picturesque scene.

    One warm afternoon, the man by the window described a parade passing by.

    Although the other man could not hear the band -he could see it in his mind’s eye as the gentleman by the window portrayed it with
    descriptive words.

    Days, weeks and months passed.One morning, the day nurse arrived to bring water for their baths only to find the lifeless body
    of the man by the window, who had died peacefully in his sleep.

    She was saddened and called the hospital attendants to take the body away.

    As soon as it seemed appropriate, the other man asked if he could be moved next to the window.The nurse was happy to make the switch, and after making sure he was comfortable, she left
    him alone.

    Slowly, painfully, he propped himself up on one elbow to take his first look at the real world outside. He strained to slowly turn to look out the window besides the bed.

    It faced a blank wall.

    The man asked the nurse what could have compelled his deceased roommate who had described such wonderful things outside this
    window.

    The nurse responded that the man was blind and could not even see the wall.

    She said, ‘Perhaps he just wanted to encourage you.’”

    Have a great day.

  • Allijah

    June 18, 2014

    Totally agreeing with you Fatima!

    there is such a thing as free will and free choice!
    I also left my hubby of 5 years because he was very jealous and checking on what i was doing… his ex cheated on him with his best friend, so he was a little paranoi since, shall we say.. the poor guy would not let me go out with the men from work.. the one time i went out, he was in the pub across the road. he finally decided to call in check on me after one hour of staring from across the road.. and when he walked in i was kissing my friend good bye… he was going to Australia for one year !! man! he freaked out total.. and other incidents happened as well.. lol but nothing serious anyway !
    but hey, i left, as i don’t like the idea of being a prisoner in my own life. we only live once after all! and feelings are not easily controlable. Men and women are subject to the same laws of attraction i am afraid, and we are only human really… I never loved him enough to want to have a family with him, i must have felt something wrong straight away with him.
    Anyway, the children are always happier if their mum is happy, loves them, and respects herself enough to recognise that it is time for her to walk away from a bad marriage. Children only need to feel loved really, anything else is ok !

    true love knows no marriage, no frontiers, no limits. To be honest, if i were forced to marry my cousin by my family and society, i might be forced to do it, but if i meet a man who loves me for what i truly am, i would feel totally entitled to share my love with this man. If it means hiding the truth from him about my sad, pathetic, bad and forced marriage, would I hide the truth from him in order to save his feelings? Heck YEAH !
    I may have to tell him later on, but we would cross that bridge when we get there !

  • Wasim chaudhry

    June 18, 2014

    agree with what is said above but its not 100% true, women don’t use their mind they just run after liars and fake people but totally neglect or ignore when someone loves them truly and without any expectations.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 17, 2014

    An Example is KIM, she tried so very hard in her marriage with M and she put up with all that crap.. She could of stayed in her marriage and put up with m and n.. But she saw it was going no where and only more hurt and pain.. She made a choice to LEAVE which benefited her situation.. Like I said we each one of us has that choice..
    She seems to be happier now that she does not deal with the drama. Im not saying everyone should leave a bad marriage.. That is not my intention at all..
    Im simply saying we have choices.. Whatever is best for each person..
    Okay.. Im done now.. hahha just wanted to make my point.. happy

  • ~Fatima~

    June 17, 2014

    And yes Ana people get into too deep their marriage with children and years of a marriage to have a husband deceive them.. Its very painful..
    If the situation will not change for the better or the husband will not change and causes deep pain.. then yes we can choose to stay with him or leave. We certainly cannot control anyone, and if their actions hurt us and they wont change for the better, then perhaps we are better without them..
    Or we an live in the sadness or learn to accept it the best we can..
    Thats what I was trying to say…

  • ~Fatima~

    June 17, 2014

    @ Ana..
    All I was saying is that we all have choices we can make.. Yes My husband lied to me about his marriage and his child, but like my family and friends had told me over and over again, while I cried and complained about the lies and deceit, they and alll of them said then LEAVE if you cant handle it.. They were tired of the complaints and if I chose to stay in the marriage then it was my choice.. There was nothing more they could say or do..
    That is what my meaning was.
    It was my choice to stay in h marriage.. it was just my opinion. I didnt mean anything bad in th comment to anyone

  • ana

    June 17, 2014

    Fatima,

    It’s a book, Insha Allah, I would buy. Just the introduction you gave made me want to read it.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 17, 2014

    @Gail and Ana..
    Ive already started writing what I hope one day will be a book.. My story as told the day I opened my computer which started a whole new life and learning experiences for me.
    . When I say open the computer and getting on line I think you can relate to this one Gail. And the drama love story began…. haha.

  • ana

    June 17, 2014

    Fatima,

    Do you not think people sometimes get in too deep? They’ve fallen in love or invested years in a marriage, had children with the man, and only then find out what they’ve gotten themselves into. They then feel stuck. They feel there is no way out.

    Do you really think it’s as simple as saying, for instance, Oh, you’re not the man that I thought you were; see ya, wouldn’t want to be yah. REALLY? Several years and some kids later?

    When you found out your husband had LIED to you repeatedly, and had married his cousin and fathered a child by her, why didn’t you say, see ya, wouldn’t want to be yah; I’m out of here? You went through a living, earthly Hell with him, and didn’t go anywhere. Is life really that simple, Fatima?

    Ninja Bye

    Think again…

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 17, 2014

    Welcome Ali Pasha
    I am not going to comment on the topic of pakastani men, except in my personal thinking we have a choice to stay with a pakastani man or leave a pakastani man if they are so bad..

    Everyone is different no matter where we are from. Theres good hearts and bad hearts.. no matter where you ate from… my opinion. happy

  • ~Fatima~

    June 17, 2014

    Good morning CagedSoul.. are you awake? ITs 10:30 PM here in Louisville Kentucky USA Tues evening.. perhaps your morning now?
    As when I suggested you write a book of some sort, I think perhaps something along the line as inner thoughts, thoughts from the heart, words from the soul….somewhere in that place.. you agree?

  • Ali Pasha

    June 17, 2014

    Asalamualikum To all, Just got here so need some time to understand whats going on so will comment briefly in short time. Till now I got an impression from some posts that majority of Pakistani men are not loyal and trustable. Its surprising for me but as I said I will comment in brief later.

  • Gail

    June 17, 2014

    Ana,
    I will think about what u said regarding the book.I have already thought to start to write down everything in a journal for my children.
    My 9 yr old has started asking questions and he said something about excowife the other day and her being jealous etc.. I corrected him and said it runs much deeper than Jealousy it is the culture.He said yeah but she wanted Dad to divorce you.I said yeah this is true she did but I offered to divorce dad.I couldn’t get anything else out because in the next second he screamed WHYYY.I said well I didn’t want to fight.He said but it would have destroyed the family.
    I said Yes but I needed dad to decide what was best for him.I needed to see if he would pick excowife and her doing bad things or me who has been good with him.Then he said OHH u wanted to see where his loyalties were.I said yes something like that.Then my son said it was because she was being bad with me I think and I said Yes this was the main reason.Then I explained to the children I never make difference between them and it is very wrong for anyone to do that thing and one must not accept mistreatment whatever the cost.
    So for this reason I will be documenting my side of the story so my children will understand why I have made the choices I have made regarding my life and my marriage and why I choice to marry outside my religion and culture.
    My children are very smart but my children are also very divided when it comes to excowife.My 9 year old can’t stand her or her family and my 12 and 11 yr old/cowife biological children they stay very silent when her name is brought up.They don’t know what to say.They r very conflicted I feel.
    I don’t know how it will go because they know their father hates their biological mother and according to their father they will never see her again.Of course people will say well it is not up to the father but in reality it very much is because the children live in a joint family in their fathers home.
    If they dared to even ask to see their mother it would be such a verbal tongue lashing and if they insisted then chances they would be beat.
    I am the only thing standing in the middle of this great divide.
    When I type this that it comes across as I have actual say in this matter and I do but only to a point.
    I don’t know what makes these people turn on each other to the point that they can murder a family member/members but I am telling u this case with the woman and her dad and brothers stoning her this is not some random act but instead this is normal.
    These people once they thing someone has wronged them they will not be stopped to take action against that person or persons.
    Ana it is so bad that if a male walks down the street and by accident bumps into another man the other man will say WHAT ARE U BLIND in the very next second there will be a fight and alot of people end up at the hospital or dead.Now u think the murder will go to prison NOPE they just pay under the table to judge and walk away.It is the most corrupt society.

  • Allijah

    June 17, 2014

    ps Gail

    Ironically my Pakistani friend is the one who is nervous and thinks that my family will not accept him because of his skin colour and of where he comes from, and what he is… and I know his family will not accept me as the white spiritual woman !! lol it is funny, we are very much alike, although we come from different backgrounds.

  • Allijah

    June 17, 2014

    Thanks guys for all the valuble information i find on here!

    Gail

    no worries I know a lot about Muslim men from having lived among them for a good few years (15 years in fact). I have also had female friends who ended in bad possessive relationships, and feeling like a prisoner in their own house, with the boyfriend in the ennemy role, and have left the relationship with enough sanity to find a good man after that.

    As to my own relationship, as i have said here before, i am more friends with my partner than anything else, as we are living in different countries all the time for years… when we are together it is only for a few hours and we are always busy, stressed and exhausted.

    In truth i have been extremely busy in work for the past 6 months, and spending all my time there, and doing work related things outside of work hours till 1 am every night, and most of my weekends also.. and so is my dear Pakistani friend. So I guess we just have to make do and enjoy each other’s company while we were in work. I am curious how the break from each other will affect our “relatinoship” when I am back.

    so you see, although my feelings merge with both of these men, i am in fact with none of them … lol !
    but I do have feelings for both of them, different feelings for both, but huge love and respect for both. and after all I am not married to either of them, and i may probably not marry either of them in the end… who knows?

    yes i do enjoy flirting freely, and my independance is vital to me, and i would not give that way, as it would be giving up who I am.

    My Pakistani friend is like me also, freedom loving, ironic about sides of Islam that his country men undermine, and i guess this is why we get on so well… as I said before, he grew up in Europe, both his Pakistani parents are in Europe
    (i met them both and both are so caring and loving for each other and are a great role model for him), they are wealthy, have been living in in Europe for years and are in good jobs, so is he. He avoids most of his Pakistani country men, except for the one good friend, who is also my good friend.

    We are just going to have to play it by ear, we are happy to spend time together as friend, in love for now. I don’t expect any more than that really… and neither is he.
    We both know the work contract deal, and make sure to be discreet when we have our private conversations.
    He has always be extremely supportive in my work, helpful, caring. His presence is amazing, loving, caring and reassuring straight away, and dispells any fears or doubts I have or had about him. I truly enjoy our interactions, and can sense the interactions on higher levels as well. and so can he.

    I don’t think that either of us really expects anything other than that to take place for a long long time… or possibly ever… happy !

  • ana

    June 17, 2014

    @Gail,

    Allah knows best; but I could surely imagine if you were to write a book about Pakistani men and their relationship to the world through your eyes it could be a million dollar seller. I’ve learned so much about the people and the country from you. To actually have lived there and, have firsthand knowledge and experience in communicating with Pakistanis as a white American woman is invaluable. It could be a huge hit with the eBooks, as well.

    It’s something you seriously may want to look into. I don’t know how long I will continue the blog. The average life of a blog is about three years, but we’re going strong in our 6th year now (5years and 4 months), but I’d endorse your book here. I’d help promote your book on this site. You’re very intelligent and articulate and, on top of it, you’re way funny for sure. Laughing Hysterically You’d add so much life to the words. Anyhow, it’s something for you to consider.

    @Cagedsoul,

    I believe Pakistan and many of the other countries with a large population of Muslims will never have people who are prospering and be a wealthy, great country until the people get right with Allah. Many have turned their backs on Allah. They are all about culture, tribalism and such. Islam (Quran) liberated women, but very few people follow what’s in the Quran. They follow everything else. The condition of women in Pakistan is way sad and it’s a huge understatement sad No wonder they treat foreign women as they do. Many see foreign women as meal tickets.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 17, 2014

    Well,
    People like to move for so many reasons so they move,reasons could varies person to person. It is basic right of every country to be careful regarding immigration policy so it is also people’s right to apply for visa. America is super power, she is everywhere and involve everywhere so it is very normal that people wants to come to USA. I think major american population comes from Europe or south American region. They all were once movers now Americans. Pakistan was once part of India, than there was division and world witnessed a great migration. It is what we call circus of life.
    When it comes to me i am not a right wing person. Pakistani men are no different from others. At the end of the day they are just people.
    Here in this page, i am simply writing words, Without your understanding and imagination, these words are nothing.How you choose to interpret these words is your choice.
    We have a very nice, young arab poet here. His words create very harsh response in muslim community. I like one of his sentence “what i write is my understanding, i am not responsible for your understanding.”
    You experience something terrible in your world, i could imagine. I am sorry although i cannot change your reality.
    This acid thing is far horrible than anything. Yes there are many cases. And there is no explanation about it except its inhumane. It is a matter of serious concern. Its simply extremism.
    There are people who are working hard to save these girls and helping them to be the productive part of the society but still its not the same. I could say every worst part of the society but that will always be one side of the society.
    You know what, i like to see light, even if its dark out there, that is what i choose to see.

    Have a great day.

  • Gail

    June 17, 2014

    Ana,
    Yes Pakistani men are very cheap labor for other countries.They work in the other countries and send money back home to support their families.I didn’t know any of this before I married but I caught on really fast after marrying and living in Pakistan and how Pakistani people look up and admire and actually worship the men who work outside the country.I don’t know if u r aware but for every USA dollar it equals around 95 to 100 Pakistani Rupees.So u can imagine the mens desire to work outside the country.
    Now normally this is not a huge deal but when u have a nation of men trying their level best to get out of a country to make money well u can see problems come up.Money is G.D to those people and everything and everyone else can go to Hell as far as they r concern.
    Again I know money is a must I accept it but what I can’t accept is their methods like lying,cheating,etc.. Ana these people are so bad that up until the chip came in the passports they would go and make several several passports.Overstay in countries not a problem go back to Pakistan change the spelling of your name and presto get another passport. I wish I could say that this was not the norm but in reality all Pakistani men that I know did this until verichip went into the passports.Now days they r trapped and can’t get out as easy as before.So now they sit for hours every single day trying to trap foreign woman for marriage.Most r married with wife and kids but they never tell the foreign woman.
    I don’t know how much u r aware of how they operate and I have never really brought it up before but this is the real reality of Pakistani males they talk a smooth talk and act really amazing but they sure have two faces for certain.
    I just hope woman looking to hook up with Pakistani men r very careful and get educated before they just jump into that mess.I should also mention the are very big on white skin woman and really target white woman ALOT.In Pakistan light/white skin.Again I didn’t know this until I was looking for my brother inlaw a wife on a Pakistani marriage site and OMG every other person described themself as wheatish color.I see it so much I ask my husband what is Wheatish color?He started laughing and explained to me that it means they r light colored.I said but they all can not be light because everyone I saw there was pretty dang dark skin.He died laughing and said yeah no doubt but the lighter u r the more people like.I was like OHHH it was a huge eye opener for me.
    I also want to point out that I fixed my brother inlaw with a mixed woman from PA. Her mother is 100% white and her dad is mixed half white and half Black.
    Now she actually looked the exact same color as Paksitani’s in skin color and I am not lying my inlaws called her such negative things.My younger brother inlaw actually came up to me when the older brother was getting married to the woman from PA/USA and flat told me Gail I want a white woman.Obviously I was shocked but said nothing because it was older brothers wedding.
    Also my sister inlaws would not have anything to do with her even she was same color as them.Now I am not saying it totally had to do with her skin but they sure made it knows about the skin color.
    I thought I should mention that.These r just a couple of things I know about.

  • ana

    June 16, 2014

    Gail,

    Thanks for correcting me. So, it was the daughter. I’m always getting things @$$ backwards. I believe your in-laws probably really do adore you and love you. I bet they do see you as superwoman. Regardless of all that you have said, I can’t see you walking out on that family. They are a part of you and you of them.

    About Pakistanis working in other countries as expatriates for work in Dubai, Saudi’s and such countries, I’ve read about it. I think they can only work there, but not live permanently. I read something about it.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    June 16, 2014

    Ana,
    Yeah no $h!t!lol
    It was her daughter not her but boy she sure went loco when she thought her daughter was going to get the big stick but it was ok for someone elses daughter to get the big stick!! You know one thing though the rest of her life I bet u she will never tell another woman to suck it up!! That old woman is something else!! She drives me 9 kinds of crazy but yet at the same time she tells everyone I am the best or so my hubby tells me.I don’t know if thats true or not but she is amazed that I can cook so well.It si strange but she looks up to me if that were possible.
    She thinks I am Superwoman.Everytime she sees me I am sitting down yet I have everything done from house cleaning to cooking to laundry to the business.lol
    It’s kinda funny actually!One thing is for sure she will never again tell me to suck it up that I am sure of.I think she is little bit scared of me now.lol
    One thing is for sure though those 2 old people MIL and FIL drive me 9 kinds of CRAZYYYYYY!!!!

  • Gail

    June 16, 2014

    CagedSoul,
    I am not against you but if u r going to tell it then tell the truth and tell it like it really is.
    Stop sugarcoating it.It misleads woman into thinking Pakistani men r just and fair when in reality they r not.Most of them r even cruel and do cruel things to their wives like throw acid on them or beat them or kill them.So again stop sugarcoating it because I don’t want western woman thinking Pakistani men are the same like western or European men because they r not.They are not even close to being the same.Ok I am done ranting!

  • ana

    June 16, 2014

    Gail,

    You keep me laughing Rolling laughter When you said that, it reminded me of when you told us the story of your mother-in-law. She told you to “suck it up”. You then turned it on her. You told her to shut up and suck it up when she went loco/crazy; she thought her husband was going to become polygamous.

    I’m still laughing…

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on.

  • Gail

    June 16, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    Sorry I am guess I am with Spirited on this and not really buying what u r selling.
    Your words sound nice but when I dig a little deeper u don’t want to admit to the problems in the culture and try to sweep it under the carpet.
    You have the typical Pakistani Male Arrogance about u that I see.I am not saying u r a bad person but u for sure have the arrogance about u to where u think u have all lifes problems solved maybe u should run for President of Pakistan!
    Tell me this why u think USA and other European countries give such a hard time to Pakistani’s who try for Visa’s if it is such a small number of men like u say working outside Pakistan.COME ON GET REAL!!! The state department are not idiots they know Pakistani men r coming to USA and marrying and doing plural marriages.They know they have an issue with Pakistani males like Spirited said.It is every Pakistani males dream to have a white/foreign wife for fun and to take a Pakistani/cousin wife for their family.

  • ana

    June 16, 2014

    Stentorian-Silence,

    Thank you much for joining in and commenting. I agree with you; the situation in which men take advantage of women isn’t only a matter involving Pakistanis. It happens in quite a few other countries, as well.

    It could be that Pakistanis get much more attention with regard to it due to many of the men being POLYGAMOUS. In cases involving people from other countries, the men or women may marry for citizenship and stay married or divorce and go their own way. Many Pakistani men, however, are polygamous, and LIE about it. Polygamy is the HUGE difference.

    When it comes to Pakistan, it’s really beginning to sink into my brain that Islam and being Muslim is a superficial thing for the people there.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    June 16, 2014

    Ana,
    I don’t feel I have to suck it up because my husband also married an American woman and since when do we suck anything up.LOL
    I as far as being patient i have been I feel but yes I have alot of resentment towards the culture etc…Cagedsoul is full of crap when he comes on here talking about how the men don’t leave the country etc… Ana there r entire villages in Pakistan where there is nothing but old people children and woman living there because all the men are outside the country.
    Now if Cagedsoul wants to deny this then thats fine but I know the truth whats going on there and I know Dubai and other countries use Pakistani men for low level labor jobs and thats the truth of it.I assume UK does the same thing.
    All I know is I am dealing it but for how long who the heck knows.There is not a day that goes by I don’t want to run away screaming thats why I warn woman u better think a million times before u up and marry a Pakistani man because once u come down off your love high believe me reality is their waiting for you and u won’t like it.

    Allijah,

    Listen I did not tell u this before but maybe CagedSoul might be honest with u(who knows)and tell u Muslim Pakistani men are the most jealous of men.
    If u think for a second your Pakistani intended boyfriend is going to let u have love affairs on the side once u r together u got a rude awakening coming.
    I notice u r a free love kind of person which is nice but unless u want that part of u to die u better keep on moving down the road pr accept the same fate as me and I me it.

  • ana

    June 16, 2014

    Dear Gail,

    I can’t remember who said it here, but someone said you need to accept that you married a Pakistani man and learn to live with him and his culture. It’s not going to change. He is a Pakistani man with a specific way of life. Insha Allah, his mom and his dad are part of his world and will be so, as far as you and I both can see, until they, he or you die. You need to suck it up and DEAL IT. You tell us similar all the time.

    What was the saying in Shawshank Redemption? You can get busy living or get busy dying. It is what it is, Gail. This is your life. Live it happy

    You have to deal the hand you was dealt. It’s all good!

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Allijah

    June 16, 2014

    thanks for input cagedsoul! makes sense to me !

    gail girl! i am sorry to say, but you sound like you could use some distance in your relationship… i think in your place i would have legged it long time ago.. but i am not the hard working type at that kind of thing i guess. you are a brave lady overall! <3

  • Cagedsoul

    June 16, 2014

    @ Gail
    I have to admit i am unaware of such actions which you mentioned regarding faith.
    Back home, some people use religion as a tool to influence but here in west? i have no clue.
    Anyways, i have to admit that subject doesn’t even interest me.

    Why not people decide themselves what is good for them and where they want to live?
    I dont think there is anything wrong with it.

    Why Pakistani people cant live in their country is not even a question because it is a free world.
    How many Pakistani people living in abroad? may be 2,00,000 or lets say 5,00,000. Its a country
    with the population of nearly 188 million. Its like a grain of salt in sahara desert.
    Migration is very common since ancient times, i cant find anything wrong with that.

    We dont consider ourselves slaves of anyone, perhaps it is your understanding but than its yours.
    It has nothing to do with me or Pakistan. I must say we should not judge each other because we gain nothing by such act.

    Good evening

  • Gail

    June 16, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    I don’t know about all that.I believe there should be a healthy balance otherwise people can take advantage of you if u live on the emotional/heart side all the time.Plus I don’t think it is healthy.
    I believe our emotional side is what pushes us to dream big and motivates us to accomplish r dreams as well as mental side but the mental side is very good to protect yourself from people who may try to take advantage so a good healthy dose of both is what I believe.
    I don’t want u to think I hate Pakistan people because I don’t I just hate that they hide behind Islam and do such dirty deeds.Thats what we in the west refer to as a wolf in sheeps clothing.I don’t like it and I find it very offensive.
    Now granted everyone is different but to me it would be more Nobel if a person needed something from me and approached me to ask my help than to try to fool me into helping him/her under the pretense they care about me.
    Again I am not saying my husband does not care about me obviously he does but he got it twisted thinking that his 1st wife was ever going to accept me and to even try to make us friends without telling me the real deal in the end blew up in his/her face understand.
    Truth is always the best policy.
    Also I am going to be honest here I hate Pakistani men who r very good to talk so graciously and act like they understand so much yet they can not even stay in their own homeland and make a living or make it a better country.I don’t value a man who walks away from his country and not try to make it better.
    Every pakistani guy is doing this including you cagesoul.Sure it solves your families financial issues but it does nothing to change the future of Pakistan and the mentality that is Pakistan.
    The men act one way outside Pakistan and another way inside Pakistan.These r real issues that should addressed and Pakistani people have knowone to blame but themselves in my opinion.
    I understand the older people were uneducated but still that is not a reason to let corruption prevail and the younger generation just runs away because thats what the older generation did.
    Pakistan is nothing more than a nation of slaves to European Countries.OH DID I JUST SAY THAT! YES I DID!!!

  • Cagedsoul

    June 16, 2014

    @ Alijah

    Your name always remind me Elijah wood, a nice young talent. Well, yes the major motive of partition was religion. But its a very technical matter, in Pakistan we are nearly 180 million people and 96% are muslims. In india, muslim population is 138 million. So even its a religious division, that doesnot mean everyone migrated.

    @ Anna
    I had very strong reaction from some of my fellow countrymen due to my odd opinions and understandings but that’s fine. We got only one life, it is much better if we live it the way we think is better.
    ” In life, we make mistakes and in mistakes we find life”

    @ Gail

    When i said emotional factor it doesnot mean, there is something wrong about it. Most people dont speak from heart but mind, its good to let mind stay in sleep mood so heart can do what he want.

    @Fatima

    Very clever, you did use my technique against me. I am flattered.

    Regards

  • ~Fatima~

    June 15, 2014

    @ CagedSoul.. you said be careful what I say to you ,that you could be wearing a mask over an ugly face.. The face does not matter under the mask.. Its whats inside the heart that matters.. A person can be wearing a handsome mask but underneath this person can be all scarred and ugly.. but given that persons personality and kindness, and a good heart is most beautiful to me..
    Therefore, the ugly scarred face is most beautiful in my eyes..
    There are many handsome faces with an ugly heart, therfore turns them into ugliness themselves..

  • Gail

    June 15, 2014

    Spirited,
    YOU GO GIRL!!
    I was thinking the exact same thing but I did not know to say it to cagedsoul.
    I know this sounds bad but one burned twice shy so alot of what he is saying just falls on deaf ears because well alot of woman r married to Paki men and we have had a good hard dose of reality from that side of the world.
    You are also correct in the fact there is no way that we can sweep the things being done and just turn a blind eye or sit silently by and let it keep happening without putting the word out there for other woman as a warning.

    Cagedsoul,
    I also mean no disrespect to you but this is not a joke or some kind of situation where u can just smooth it over it don’t work that way we r real woman with real lives and children and the fact is we have been hurt u can’t put a bandaid on a huge gash.
    The same like maybe woman do not understand men it flows both ways.Men also do not understand woman and the depth that we feel things.
    I also don’t want u to think we r sitting stewing on r situations we r not we r working through are individual issues but obviously it takes time.

  • ana

    June 15, 2014

    Bro Cagedsoul, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    You said to Spirited, “I am surprised that you consider muslim world very religious.” When I first became Muslim, and read the Quran, I foolishly thought the Muslim world was way religious. I believed everyone was trying to live what Allah says in the Holy Quran. Boy oh boy, was I in for a rude awakening and it wasn’t a quick one.

    SECTARIANISM is HUGE. We can see it today with what is happening in Iraq between the Sunni and Shite Muslims as we write. I remember when Iraq was at war with Kuwait and I thought the Iraqis were going to prevail simply because they were Muslims. How crazy was that?

    There are Arabs Muslims who don’t consider non-Arabs Muslims as Muslims. I know of Muslim sisters who are in burqah who won’t look at another Muslim sister who is covered, but not in burkah. The burkah woman thinks she is the pious one, due to her attire. How narrow minded is that? The ones in burkah in the area where I live only say “salaam” to the non-burkah down women, and won’t give the full “As Salaamu Alaikum”. I suppose they haven’t been many places in the world to see Muslims dress differently all over the planet. To think they stole the Arab dress anyhow and the Arabs have a hatred for them. Go figure. They walk about looking like Arabs and the Arabs hate them. I could go on and on, but you’ve got the picture.

    Brother Cagedsoul, you said in the Muslim community we have the same acts and ways of thinking as non-Muslims. You are absolutely correct. There are Muslims who don’t have a clue about their religion. It baffles me that some Muslims go to a non-Muslim site and to the haters of Islam there, and ask for help. How @$$ backwards is that? I’ve heard, pedophilia (men doing boys) is the norm in Afghanistan. I don’t know how true it is.

    There was a Muslim woman or two on the blog who condoned my husband having his others wife’s naked porn pics on his phone. Just as they got in my hands, Allah, if he wanted to, could have placed them in someone else hands. The phone could have gotten lost or stolen. Then years later she proceeded to text me an up close and personal pic of his penis and testicles with nasty language. The Muslim sister commentator said he could have her nasty pics on his phone if he wanted to surprise The Muslim sister may have done similar and thought nothing of it. I suppose the Muslim sister didn’t think much of what “modesty and chastity means.”

    Brother Cadgesoul, I agree with you that people marry for various reasons. I’ve read some Islamic material (It wasn’t in Quran), but it said a person gets out of Islam what they entered it for. If a person accepts Islam to obtain a husband, all they get is a husband. We’ve seen it here as well with one of the commentators who recently received a divorce. She accepted Islam to be on the same playing field as the Muslim husband who took a second wife who was Muslim. Immediately upon her divorce, she left Islam.

    In the Islamic material, I read that a person could marry for riches, beauty, lineage, social status etc. but the best reason to select a person for marriage is for her or his piety.

    Cadgesoul, I know where Spirited is coming from. She is hurt and disillusioned based on what has happened to her. I remember when I was NON-Muslim, young and in love. I gave him my virginity. I was conflicted between my religious beliefs (Christianity) and the contradictory ways of society. I had no guidance. I wrote to a teen magazine, seeking help. They gave me no answer other than to say make up your own mind. Nonetheless, he and I were both very young. He wanted to sow his wild oats like any other young male out there. I found a little black book with names and phone numbers of girls in it. I was destroyed. You know what I did? What he did? I dated whom I wanted when I wanted. I said what good for the goose is good for the gander. Eventually I no longer liked my life. I knew there was a meaning to life that I didn’t know. I sought out to find it. Allah gave me Islam.

    I know exactly how Spirited feels. She has Islam. She has morals. She fears Allah. I pray Allah doesn’t lead her down the path of destruction, but keeps her on the Mustaqueen. She has to be strong and hold onto Allah. She can’t allow herself to become jaded, which it appears she is becoming. I pray she does not.

    Thank you, Cadgesoul, for answering Spirited. It gave me an opportunity to express my thought on what you said.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 15, 2014

    @ Spirited

    Thank you for your writing. I must say, for a friction of second my feet sweat though i am not offended. I am always feel scared whenever someone ask me to explain something. Perhaps i feel incapable of doing such things.
    I dont feel responsible for the actions of any but my own. This subject interest me and I donot wish to change any ones mind. If you think Pakistani men are not good that’s fine. Do you know Paulo Coelho? I am a great admirer of his work. He use to say “learn to say no without any explanation”
    If Pakistani men troubles anyone than no is the best answer for them without any explanation. What is right for me may be wrong for you. Our parameters of defining things are different and it also effect our choices.
    I am maintaing this impression that i never mentioned in my writings that what women have to do. I merely explain things according to my understanding. May be even Pakistani people will not buy what i sell.
    Let me say this, it does not matter that any answer is right or wrong but does it satisfy the questionary.
    My interest is not to save anyone’s ass but to explain the societal factors. Off course, it doesn’t change the intensity of emotional crime but that is what i do. Did i hide anything? no what i did is i didnot give you clear answer in the form of yes or no. that is not my job to do.
    Now lets talk about your questions
    1- I dont even remember what particularly i was looking for but i think i just write Pakistani men and then here it comes a very interesting page about our love affairs. Who told you that muslim women dont do such things which you mentioned?
    I am surprised that you consider muslim world very religious. We are just another human beings. If a priest rape a child and a Mulla did the same thing then how they are different, i dont know. Gays, Lesbians, Anal , orgi, you name it we have it. The difference between west and muslim world is we still dont talk about these subjects. We think closing our eyes will hide such acts.
    In france, there use to be an organization inside government who use to do dirty stuff, like elimination of the threats against government. The only thing is, every act require the signed permission of higher authority.than There was a president (I don’t remember his name now) he use to say please don’t bring these stuff to my attention, do what you think is necessary but keep me away.”
    You know what it means? It means they know it but they dont wana talk about it. in other words they dont wana see their hands dirty, now that’s different.
    2- My dear, who told you that marriage means love, there are many reasons people get married in my country. Sometime its political arrangements, its keeping the family thing together and keep the inheritance as well inside the family, the list is long. Well, sometime there is also love thing as well. So finding the real purpose behind a marriage could be a difficult task. Sometime people even don’t have the freedom to choose but sometime people also tail the stuff as you mentioned. Sex is human need, it has nothing to do with love.
    3- Now this question is really brutal and unfortunately i experienced this behavior myself, when a guy told me the same thing in Denmark. it is highly unacceptable behavior and worst of all. I think if someone showed the sign of this behavior than he need to go to rehabilitation center.

    I have to say that if you experience this behavior than you have to find out that where in pakistan that person come from. Pakistan is a diverse country and most of the Pakistani foreign community belongs to those areas which still considered as illiterate if not poor anymore. In some areas whole towns are in abroad, those who left behind are old, children and women. Now, it is your choice how you want to interpret my answers.
    As you mentioned earlier that my answers doesn’t matter so you don’t need to listen to me, and even if you do listen that would be your choice and you truly know what you want to choose.

    I wish you a great evening.

  • Stentorian~Silence

    June 15, 2014

    Obviously people from many countries do it. Just a day ago I was reading this same story about a Turkish guy and a British model.

    However, Pakistanis are just easier to blame than people from other countries, probably because of the bad image generated from this ‘War on Terror’ stuff. I blame Pakistanis for making themselves the punching bag of the world.

  • Spirited

    June 15, 2014

    Salaam all,

    I had just been quietly reading along here, but I felt I had to add something here. Please note, I’m not intending any offense.

    @Cagedsoul, since you’ve volunteered to “explain” Pakistani men’s behavior (as if YOU have every explanation), then please do explain a few things:

    — how was it that you simply happened to come across the title of this post? Maybe you were trying to find ways to justify following your lusts for non-Muslim western women because you know they’ll do things that believing Muslim women would never entertain (such as anal or orgies, or threesomes)?

    — I would love to hear why your type have no problems having a romantic interest in your female cousins, NO problems taking her virginity and having sex with her, having a family, but then decide you’re bored with her and come up with the “oh but I didn’t want to marry her, I was forced to by my family” excuse. Really? How about you grow some balls and admit that no, you DID love her, but now you just want some “western tail.” (I’m not saying that’s what YOU did, but you offered to provide “explanations” for all paki men).

    — please do explain the mentality that my brother was shown when he went for a visit to Pakistan with my parents some years ago. The men told him he should marry a kaffir and have his fun, and marry a virgin Muslim woman to have muslim kids with. They told him this is the Pakistani male’s dream — “have a muslim virgin and get a western whore too”, and he’s lucky to be able to do it easily since he’s an American-Pakistani Muslim. (by the way, my brother was so disgusted by this and other things, he swore he would never go to Pakistan again as long as he lives).

    I don’t expect any good answers, because you are not Allah and only HE knows what is the truth. I don’t think you’re even particularly close to religion from the sound of things. Plus, there’s no way you can speak for every single Pakistani man (just like my questions DO NOT represent every Pakistani man either).

    Again, sorry if I step on some toes, but it seemed like you were trying to put a blanket over the truth of Pakistani men and hide what they do so that you could get a chance to do the same thing. I think there was another Paki man who posted trying to disprove Ana’s warnings in this post. I believe this warning about Marrying a Pakistani Man is extremely important and any attempts to undermine it should be challenged.

    I most likely won’t reply to anything else you state, because I’ve said my piece and as I mentioned above, any explanation you give won’t mean anything. My questions are more for people to keep in mind and not forget the warning Ana wrote about in the actual post. Women need to be mentally/emotionally ready and educated on what to possibly expect from Pakistani men because they can be sneaky and great liars. Most women are aware of cheating from men in the west, but what Pakistani men do is a bit different.

    That said, please keep in mind, I DO NOT think that EVERY Pakistani man is the same way, but more and more of them are, as they abandon Allah and follow the brain in their pants, making the kaffirs they chase as their new God.

  • Allijah

    June 15, 2014

    Gail!

    You asked about my job:

    I got my old job back for one year! I am so thrilled! I will get a better chance to hang around my Pakistani friend, I guess that it is what I have to call it happy A friend with romantic interest, which have no chances of materializing in the next 2 to 5 years… but we can hang around and chat in work, which is a NEED for both of us on many levels. As we depend a lot on each others’ work and expertise.

    I am taking a few weeks off before I start working on projects in July. Then August is off for me, then back in September full time at work happy
    I have to say that I am looking forward to it ! winking

    I know.. i know.. me bad naughty girl ! but it does not feel that way at all, it just feels right happy

  • Allijah

    June 15, 2014

    Hi Gail ! I begin to understand where you are coming from regarding your “situation”. I can see how it is not easy to simply let it go, because you are living it every single day of your life, it affects most decisions that you make, it not only affects you, but your children as well. It sure is a culture shock. In the country I come from, although it is not eclusively a Muslim country, or near Pakistan, the habits are pretty much the same as in Pakistan.
    I mean: the married couple has the “priviledge” and “honour” of living with the in laws… and the new bride is like the new slave of the house by all means, she has to put up with bad treatment, even beatings, or sexual assaults from other family males. This is why I did not marry in my country, and i will never consider that. I much prefer the European way of life, where people understand the need for space between families, emotional space, as well as physical space. I cannot get on with my mother in law to be, and guess what..!? she will end up living with us during the year i believe… so you see.. it seems like a world wide conspiracy to have families ending up living in the same place eventually…

    Hi Manahutsana

    glad to see you back here and glad that you are being kept busy! I did not know that European culture was closer than African culture to Pakistan. I always assumed that Muslim countries would get on well, but forgot about the other cultural differences. From what I know from my friends living in Africa or who visited it, it seems that most African males rely a lot on their woman / women for pretty much everything in their life: raising children, bringing money into the household, cooking, washing, etc… the African male seems to have a bit of a lion life style, and the African female role model seems to be built around the lioness, sadly enough… but again this is a model that many Europeans follow. The woman is in charge and responsible of everything, while the man brings income into the house is treated as top wolf in the house. Perhaps there is more of an idea that things should be different in Europe, more equal in the family home, but it remains an idea in most cases. Women here still earn less than men, which is rediculous, as women often end up being single parents, with no financial support what so ever from the “father” of children, not to mention any other kind of support is out the window as well.
    Politicians and congress all agree on the importance of keeping women on a tight leash as it were. All those in power are keen on having exclusively men in power, and it is the same in religion matters… How many women prophets are there in Islam? in Christianity? in my books.. none! and we all know that women are much wiser than men in most cases. The world is up side down for sure!

    Hi Cadgelsoul

    I so enjoyed what you said about your country! It is an area that still need expanding for me. Would you mind telling me more about Pakistan (not the Wikipedia version of course), and I am thinking about the split from India. Was the split based on religious belief mainly? or was there something else going on?

    Hugs and have a super Sunday folks !

  • Cagedsoul

    June 15, 2014

    Few days back,i saw a page during google search having title “marry a Pakistani man? Beware!” The title was very harsh that i could not stop myself reading what was there. As this page was not about finance or litracy rate or health problems but a very basic piller of my society which we call behavior, i find great depression to talk about it.
    As i consider myself the representation of my country. I cannot run from my identity, so what i can do is to explain and try to make people understand while accepting our mistakes.
    Have you ever been to Rehab? The first thing they taught you to accept your situation. They push you to say you are alcohlic in public.It is not for others but for you to accept that alcohal is a bad thing and you really feel that you are fucked up.

    When it comes to a bad aspect of a society
    ignoring is like you put a rotten meat in a closet and simply consider its not in the room. No, it is there, it is just a matter of time when you cant even ignore the smell.
    I think you know England just passed a law against force marriage and Gorden Brown personally asked Prime Minister Sharieff regarding this issue.
    Pakistani Prime minister said his government will support every step British government take against forced marriages.
    My job is to tell you that there are many people in Pakistan who knows these problems do exist and they do consider them a matter of great importance.
    It will take time, lots of time, I wish to see the change in my society but i know its a very long process.
    Now let me talk about how men thinks:
    men’s thought process is very different from women. What makes you worry may have no value to us. for example you said our mother is interfering in your personal matters.
    TO us, its nothing, we will not respond to your anger and even if we do it is because we just dont want any more drama that day. (a possibility among millions)
    If we interfere between you and our family we will break the bridge by choosing a side. We dont want that.Remember, men act rationally.
    I read some posts of yours and i can see a great emotional tendency among them.
    men solution for you is “honey, let it go” or “come on, dont you see i love you so much.”

    @ mamahutsana

    Thank you very much for your kind words.

    we are living in a world where distance exists only in minds.
    The person sitting beside you perhaps is living million miles away from you. But you still have the choice to change your opinion about you in his/her mind. I think we should all have to focus on what we really are instead of being manipulated by others.
    Everything comes from within.

    @ Fatima

    I have no idea, what your mother make but i am sure it taste good. Be careful what you said about me, i could be wearing a mask on an ugly face.
    In Denmark there is a term called “ytringsfrihed” it means freedom of expression. This country has great respect for that.
    I must say i am a great admirer of scandinavian region.
    About my personal life, i am an extremely private person. I rarely talk about my family at public places and when i do its because i have to quote an example.
    Well, i do write poetry and short stories once in a while. if that’s what you were pointing out.

    At the end, i must say we all require emotional and anger management.The biggest professional mistake a person can do is to get angry. Keep calm and think twice because
    once we transform our thoughts into action, there is no turning back.

    Have a great sunday.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 14, 2014

    @Cagedsoul,,
    Denmark sounds nice.. at least to me.. I dont like hustle bustle and noise and lots of people myself. I find a lot of contentment in just being with me at times..
    My Mother has made some dessert sweet things that remind me of a waffle..She use to always make dishes with potatoes and cabbage.

    I suppose you have never been married? Or I dont recall you saying so.. I will have to check back on the posts here..

    You should write a book of some sort with the way you word things.. I like reading your posts…

  • mamahutsana

    June 14, 2014

    @ Gail sorry for my misprinting I needed to say no need to throw a towel but instead to grow your strongness to the higher level but also be prayerful to Allah He knows best and He is the Source of Our strenght. Sorry again I am typing from my handset so don’t mind my typing mistakes.

  • mamahutsana

    June 14, 2014

    Hi ladies it has been a while since I visited due to my hectic life trying to pull all strings together, but am happy to be here today. @ Cagedsoul wellcome and frankly I will like to applaud for your sincere message just straight to the point not all men can accept or even mention that they are sometimes weak and tend to be easily manipulated Woow! What you said is truth nothing but the truth when I read your message everything you said I have already experienced the lot of it. @ Allijah thanks my dear you are so sweet I am glad to hear that you have friends in my country that is good. @ gail you have to be strong and according to what I read you are indeed a strong woman who knows what she needs it is human nature sometimes to fell confused,down and out but you do need to throw a towel you also mentioned “cultural clash”I would rather say cultural diversion, my dear for the chains in the legs that have been mentioned just imagine the huge difference in the African Culture and that of Pakistan I think Western Culture is more close to that of pakistanis Civilization wise,just imagine black african women to adapt to pakis way of living and doing things vice versa it was not a bed of rose it took lot of emotional strains and endurance but as cagedsoul said love always find its way and to sustain that mutual understanding is of paramount need and of course perseverance. Regards

  • Cagedsoul

    June 14, 2014

    Well, You are the only one who knows what is best for you to do. Nobody can help you to make any choice and whatever you choose to do to make your future better always has a probability.
    What i know is people sometime make odd choices which makes no sense to others and sometimes not even to them.

    Am i making sense to you? i hope not, find some distraction in your life which makes you happy without reason.
    I am sure it will work.

  • Gail

    June 13, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    Had she not been a family member that would be alot easier to let the past go.It is not the past that bothers me it is the future.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 13, 2014

    I am sorry i had to mention earlier that i don’t think you did something wrong. That is not a point. I am just trying to bring a societal factor as well in the light. But i dont think you adopted her children actually you adopted his children. Thats two different things. Forgive me, if you get annoyed, that was not the intention. I said this thing to many friends and let me say this to you as well. We got only this moment, this is where you are. Your past is long gone, please do not try to understand whats gone. you don’t live there anymore. The more you think about this stuff the more you feel pain. Just enjoy what you have, I know its easy to say, we humans cannot forget, our memories cause lot of pain to us so why we try to create or invent answers that could satisfy our inner empty holes. Trust me, there will come a time in your life when you will look back and say to yourself “oh, nothing matters now” I wish it will happen soon.

    My humble apology again and wish you luck.

  • Gail

    June 13, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    Something else I want to be clear on.I offered my excowife that I and the kids would move back to Pakistan so she could help me raise all the kids together.She said NO and told me straight to my face take the kids back to USA she was going back to her village.
    Also I want to say I really wanted r Polygamous marriage to work out but 2 years ago I was really angry with her and I was fighting mad but I joined this blog and chilled out but in the last 2 yrs she has gone more worse telling lies on hubby to try to get me angry to divorce him but I told her I am not divorcing him and we r going to raise the children.
    I should mention I legally adopted her son when he was 4 so legally he is not even hers anymore and the daughter I have been personally raising since she was 6 yrs old she is now 11.Her son I adopted I have raised him since he was a 1 year baby.
    I just can’t bring myself to feel pity for her when I offered her Polygamy and she acted like I was beneath her even that B!tch lives in a village and dad is dead and no income.She lives like an animal in the mountains to be frank.
    I on the other hand own 3 acres in USA and have money and looking to buy more homes.I don’t know it blows my mind.

  • Gail

    June 13, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    NO this was exactly the point I was trying to make that u don’t understand.SHE KNEW EVERYTHING.I was the one in the dark. She was perfectly happy to prostitute her husband and children out by letting him marry me when she thought her A$$ was coming to USA understand but as soon as hubby told her and later on I told her that it is not legally possible for her to come to USA she and her family went 9 kinds of Ape $hit on hubby and me and my sister inlaw had to take the abuse understand.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 13, 2014

    @Gail
    Family marriages are very common in some areas of Pakistan. It is because people have low acceptability level for outsiders. Because people get married inside family so if one marriage went bad it effect others as well. Remember,people don’t marry with a person but with a family. So if a person is planning to divorce he or she has to understand that it is not only he/she but many people going to pay the price. I cannot explain more except it is a desire to stay inside the family and not many girls and guys think differently and if you do than consider yourself screwed up. I could say that time will change but i am not hopeful, not a bit. Now you said before that you are tolerating you husband and his family because of your children. Think what a Pakistani women could do. Your husband took her children, You took her place without her consent (i am just projecting another reality for you). she become furious.Think, nobody wants to be treated as second choice. It simply produce poison inside people.
    @ Fatima
    Denmark is completely opposite of Pakistan. In pakistan people interfere in your life without your permission and in Denmark, even if you wish that someone interfere, nobody will. They don’t have time for you. People don’t put energy to save their relationships here. One call of apology or request that please come back could save a world but that call never come because people take things very light. In Pakistan lots of things are bad but divorce ratio is still very low. I am not saying its a good thing but people really work hard to save their relationships, reason could be anything. Why i come to Denmark hold many reasons. Easy way to explain is first my education and Second i was misfit where i born and this problem gets bigger if a person is introvert. So i moved out or in other words ran away.
    Do your mother know how to make a good stroopwafel? Its a very famous dutch cookie.

    Have a nice evening.

  • Gail

    June 13, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    I understand how the people of Pakistan r poor and they use their family members to help support them.I totally get it but what I don’t understand is how the families try to rip each other apart and use each other in such negative ways.My husbands extended family did horrible things to my husbands family.Example they do family marriages and my husbands cousin divorced my husbands sister and even was trying to kill her simply because he did not want to marry her and was forced by his mother.
    Obviously goes deeper but to this day we never figured out the real reason or agenda why he mistreated my husbands sister.
    Then we have the flip side where my husband married me with his 1st wife/cousin agreement and neither bothered for 8 yrs to tell me what they were up to.The Goal was to try to get her to USA eventually.When I told her this could never happen after I took her kids out of Pakistan and husband she and her family demand my husband divorce me.Well WTF?
    My husband said no and his sister was married in that family the one that already been divorced by the other cousin that tried to kill her and so they abused her so much she left and returned to Pindi.
    Then to add insult to injury my inlaws who I adored and loved for so many years I find out they were all in on hiding my husbands 1st wife.
    I can not find forgiveness in my heart for these people.G.D/Allah knows I have tried and forgiveness is just not there.They make me sick the entire lot of them.After everything I did for them to bring them to USA and help their family to have them $hit on me in such a humiliating way as to hide the truth from me knowing I have a child with my husband I do not feel forgiveness for these people.I deal them because of my husband and that is it.I deal my husband for the sake of my children.I don’t know it is a vicious cycle.
    My husband divorced his 1st wife/Pakistani because he figured out she was not going to accept Polygamy and was trying to force him through his sister to divorce me and bring her to USA.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 12, 2014

    @Cagedsoul..
    Perhaps I do have a good imagination but not always do I put together a voice with written words but yours I can..
    you are correct about the women in countries as pakistan and India who are raised not to work, and whom basically have a husband chosen for them.. to provide for them, support them physically and financialy.
    It is not because they are lazy, but this is what is exspected. I hear this from many friends from these countries.
    Tell me , do you like Denmark? I beleive thats where you said youare. Correct me if Im wrong..
    My mothers ancestors are from Holland, and Ive been told many times, I have a bit of a European a accent, perhaps from my Mother..
    what brought you to Denmark?

  • Cagedsoul

    June 12, 2014

    @Fatima, I must say you have a strong imagination. Only an artist can say what you said.

    @Kim, Thank you for your kind words. Kashmire is a beauty. I cant say i am wise, I am just a student of life who choose not to stand among the crowd. But i have my own faults and doubts.

    @Allijah, I am glad you find someone in my words.

    Finally, i would like to conclude that we all must learn to practice empathy. We desire a lot and we demand a lot. If we want to stay others dream than we have to give them liberty. Let them free after telling them that you want them somehow in your life. If they want, they will come to you. Donot force yourself to penetrate in your loved once mind because you dont want it for yourself. A body can be controlled but not a soul.
    In Pakistan 52% population consist of females and most of them don’t work. Men suppose to work to support families. Trend is changing now but still its a man job to support family. A society where even men get abused, what kind of life a divorce woman or a widow with children can have? These women get abused by society but most of the time by their own relatives. It can be emotionally or physically but chances are high. If you consider yourself in isolation than think about others as well. It may give you another prospective of life.
    Remember, its a country in the process of transition, where new school and old school are not willing to understand each other.

    Good night.

  • ~Fatima~

    June 11, 2014

    Ahhh yes Cagedsoul..
    I too love to read your posts..Almost as though I can hear your voice speak the words… very nice and very well explained.. happy

  • Kim

    June 11, 2014

    CagedSoul, I love reading what you have to say. You remind me a LOT of my nephew in Kashmir, very wise, very frank, and can explain the things that confound me in terms that make it very easy to understand happy

  • Allijah

    June 11, 2014

    cagedsoul!
    once again! thank you! you are truly helping and it sounds as if though you are speaking about my lovely Pakistani friend <3 bless you and love to the blog !

  • Cagedsoul

    June 11, 2014

    My gratitude to all of you.
    Pakistani society and i mean middle class society is very caste oriented, especially when it comes to marriage. It is because we all are converted muslims from Hindus . We have all customs accepted under the label of culture. Still young generation tend to break free from the rules and so called norms of the society.
    pakistani people have low tendency of getting married to foreign women. It requires a very strong urge or reason to do so. But many foreign women did marry to pakistani men and moved to Pakistan as well to live there. It sounds odd because society is very controlled but its true. But even the west is very controlled in other sense. We all trying to fit people in our boxes, the boxes which we prepared for them. My understanding regarding women is that they share the common soul when it comes to emotions. where you come from can only effect the intensity level.
    Your marriage doesnot work has less to do with other people but how much you share with each other in marriage circle. It is still a taboo to discus sexual fantasies inside marriage. People hide their urges, they want others to understand without saying. I am affraid that doesnot work.
    Pakistani men are very masculine, not physically but mentally. they have high intensity of bearing pain and sufferings. In other word they may like to be in situations of pressure or stress. they grow up this way. Everyone is expecting from them, everyone demands his shares from their lives.
    please go to your kitchen and and cut an onion. it has layers, each layer is different from other. In our lives we also have layers, where we are standing is the very inner layer and who come inside that layer? may be nobody, we may remain alone in that circle and people who thinks know us may be in an illusion.
    We all must find the common grounds to overcome the barriers and silence which lies among us.

    Have a nice evening.

  • ana

    June 10, 2014

    Cagedsoul,

    I’m trying to catch up with all the posts on the blog. I just read one of yours, which was Awesome You’re really heavy (as in deep) as in you write some profound stuff…

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Allijah

    June 10, 2014

    Hi Gail and Cagesoul!

    so enjoying catching up with your comments here!
    2 comments from me:
    - not only Pakistani men use people for marriage. Many other nationalities do that too, and that is absoluely not exclusive to men doing that by the way. I know this woman who married this rich block to get set up for life with his fortune and to get residency into Europe. Then she got herself pregnant by him with 2 kids, so that her husband would have to give her money and to the kids for the rest of his life, even as he realized her true motives… some men can be very weak and blind too, when their trousers get a stiffy being ego massaged by manipulative heartless muslim or non muslim women. We all have to learn our lessons in this life i guess…
    - as to loving someone for their dark side as well as their wonderfully light side, this is so true in my opinion. I too have a dark side, and i have no idea how I could impose my dark side on the two men of my heart. So if i am going to ask one of those 2 men to accept me for the rest of their life, I have to be prepared to do the same for them i guess up to some extent, as long as it does not endangers my health and life.

    Thank you cagedsoul for the wonderful things you said about love!! i totally agree@@ <3 <3 <3

  • Cagedsoul

    June 10, 2014

    Dear Gail,

    I am afraid i cannot comment on that matter. I have a very strong rule in my life to donot interfere other peoples lives.
    However, i will generalize this subject in some other manner in future but i have a feeling that you already know everything. Perhaps we also talk about good things of Pakistani men as well. As i have firm belief that there is no value of light without dark and vice versa.

    Do you like Chocolate? i like dark chocolate, the good thing about chocolate is when it melt above your tongue, your mind just stop complaining about everything. The whole body become so focused and your nerves above ears gives you a very tender feeling. I usually call this feeling a perfect orgasom. (what i wana say is you have a perfect life, kids, husband who do care about you and you are in your homelnad, if you feel suffocated, you can go somewhere, many women don’t have that luxury. and above all you know that other people are fucked up. it is enough, you dont need to tell them that they are fucked up. Let them live a life as ignorant.)
    Embrace yourself because you are a woman, In ancient civilizations, its the symbol of God, creation.

    Good night.

  • Gail

    June 10, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    Keep writing and blogging I am listening to you.
    What u have stated about them changing their names on Passports and all that jazz is very true.Thanks G.D now it is much harder with the chipped passports for them to do such nonsense.It keeps everyone truthful at least when it comes to this topic.
    I guess after everything my husband and I have been through I can say I am good with my marriage.I don’t even have a real problem with joint family except with the exception that my inlaws seem to not really help us financially here in USA when they D@mn well know I am need housing for my kids yet they do not bring food into the house.All I ask my husband to do is have them bring in vegis and they can not even do that but yet on the Paki side they pay for every D@mn thing there right down to my brother inlaws kids school fees.When I say they pay for everything I really do mean every single thing.They have a 30 and 40 year old sons sitting on their @SS not doing much of anything constructive to really bring money into the home.It is such a disgusting thing to see as far as I am concerned and these old people made their kids this way.
    Now I figured all this out before marriage and I put my foot down and told my husband we would not mix r money with his parents money or it would be a deal breaker for me and he has been pretty good about that for the most part but last year his mom screamed she needed money to build some rooms onto the home and so he gave her 8,000 usa dollars.
    I was really pissed and almost divorced him over this topic.He swore to me that he would get the money back from them this season but guess what I have not seen a dime of it and I am still pissed about it.
    He is hiding money from me as well which I caught him doing the other day.Now granted he is saving for the kids vacation next month and that is fine but this better not become something I find him doing in the future or again it will be a deal breaker for me.
    It sounds like I am a money freak and really I think I am not but I have a goal to either buy or build a home and I am saving very hard for that goal and I am not going to tolerate any crap.
    I do understand about when u open the garbage bag u have to smell the entire $h!t BUTTT at some point u just want to throw it down and move on.
    I am not there in my life where i want to throw him away as he is really trying and doing a wonderful job and I am pretty proud of him to be honest but man this parent thing and them not helping out at all and just being dead weight on our shoulder is wearing really thin and I know if they do not move on back to Pakistani after my father inlaw gets his citizenship I might blow a gasket and seriously just get my own home and leave him to deal them.
    Again I would not have any problem with my inlaws if they would not be such a burden on me.
    I won’t go as far as to say I love them or anything like that but I deal them for the sake of my husband but on the flip side I find my husband to be and Idiot like Spirited always says.lol To not tell demand them to help out.So believe me when u talk about the shackles I totally get it because my husband is shackled and that is fine but when they try to shackle me is where i have the issues.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 10, 2014

    Thank you for your kind remarks.Girls, I truly feel your pain. I cannot tell you what is the definition of love, everyone has its own definition. You girls are very mature, more than us and you are the only one who knows what is best for you. Everyone else who told you what is good for you is an asshole. Donot let others ever define things for you. Its so painful to live a lie but unfortunately most of us do.
    I will come to joint family system but today let me talk about this immigration problem.

    If a guy is with you not because he likes you but because he wants to live in your country than you are nothing but a permit for him. Sorry for my selection of words but i cannot find any better. Not all men are the same but some do get married because of immigration. ( I have seen many south american get married for same purpose so i have to generalize this paragraph for third word countries or developing countries. In Denmark, many girls go to Bolivia, Cuba ,Mexico and after few months some guy come from these countries and they get married. I am sure these guys remain obedient to these girls because life in their home countries as we know are not that amusing as in developed counties.)
    I have seen many pakistani men get married for immigration reasons as well. Trust me it is nothing. I have seen that people change their nephews father name just to bring them Europe or abroad. You perhaps think what i am talking about but remember, if you open the garbage bag than you have to smell the whole shit. Once people get immigration they try to untie with the woman. They dont consider you a partner but a heavy box on their shoulder which they have to lift in order to achieve their target ” Do you still remember that i am also Pakistani, so in this way i am killing my own kind, perhaps they call me bad spot happy
    (I am trying to remain on the subject but its getting harder)
    If i tell you that your guy is with you because he wants to live in this country than what you say? Do you accept my answer as it is? No, you shouldnot because you can never see the soul or heart of a human, you cannot judge him/her just because some one said so or had bad experience.

    Deal Gail and Alijah,
    If you want to live a happy life, than you should not think if he loves you or not but if you love him so much that you could accept his dark side as well. Are you willing to pay the price for your love? I met a danish woman who get married three times with danish men and get divorced three times and also had many boy friends. Still she is single and looking for someone who could make her happy. You have to understand no matter what you choose, nothing will come without a dent. I dont think that you are here just to stay away Pakistani men but you want to understand them. You want to understand their mentality and the reason behind their actions. I myself is a man of lies and scars but i will try my best to explain where this behavior came from.

    Have a great day, and life is here, only this one which you got, be happy. Dont let a small black dot cover your whole prospect.

    Regards,

  • Gail

    June 9, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    U r very articulate indeed.You have a fantastic way of expressing yourself with words.The thing that most disturbs me is the way most Pakistani men use foreign woman for immigration status.What u r saying sounds logical but when u are a female and come from a society like USA and find out your husband has lied and cheated u out of the life he promised you it leave the woman feeling lost and anger and very hurt etc…This is not just happening to American woman but also Pakistani American woman.It is very hard to feel sorry for someone whom u feel has destroyed your life.
    Here is the thing in my case I have been married 11 yrs and I tell my husband all the time his Parents r his balls and chain and he needs to chill out.It is a constant thing between us that is just there and never goes away.Even today if I say I am going to move out of the home just to get away from his parents he would stay with his parents and not leave them.That really Pi$$es me off on alot of levels to be frank.It is a very hard life that to be frank I did not sign up for.

  • Allijah

    June 9, 2014

    Aww! Gail and cagedsoul! what you two are saying is making so much sense !!

    and i so fully agree with what you are saying cagedsoul … of course Gail’s husband did not want to tell her about the other wife he was obliged to marry… because he knew she would run a mile had he told her straight away… and of course he did not want to lose her and loose any right to experience real love and happiness <3

    to be honest, in my life i can say i was / am truly in love with 4 men, and the human heart is much bigger than what we think. it does not need limitations to love exclusively, and there is no hurt if both partners are aware of it being a platonic or an ephemeral thing. once one knows the rules from the start and that the rules are fair and equal to both partners, there is an understanding. All those 4 people are very different and love with them was/ is different, and does not need conditions. nobody can stop love ever. no matter your religion, culture, age or gender… Pure Love is just pure love, it does not know chains nor cage, it does not need to manifest into a physical relationship, it just is <3

  • Cagedsoul

    June 9, 2014

    Dear Ladies or may i say charm of the world!
    Well, this subject interest me as i mentioned earlier and i felt in immediate need to clear the fog. It may not change your choices but give you another prospective that things are not so simple for these men.
    I will try to go bit further in this post, as problem is not as simple as you think.
    You would be lucky if your man hold an odd behavior towards his family which means he really knows that they are awfully involved in his life.
    In my childhood, i read a story of a little bulbul who was scared of flying becuase he thinks he will fall. His parents throw him from the mountain, he saw his death before his eyes but then something unusual happened his wings start getting open and he saw himself for the very first time flying. He was so happy and he looked back to his parents who were looking at him with proud) Now think this bulbul is a pakistan man and the only difference is when he look back he saw his parents and a long chain coming from his parents hands towards his legs. Well my dear, you cant see poo in you anus but that doesnot mean its not there.
    I can see an icon of Quran in this blog and it reminds me another core problem which is associated with subjected problem. In Pakistan or most of the muslim world people have no idea the difference between culture and religion. everything is so much knitted that walking on the line is nearly impossible.
    In pakistan, support from government is nearly none so people expect social help from their families. Family means all the relatives. people dont break this circle because there is nobody who can help them without family. Its like you are in the jungle, lost from your group. In other words, these people also interfere others personal lives at huge scale.
    (Note: Last paragraph represents inside Pakistan situation)
    Now if you are married or involve with a Pakistan man here in Europe or in your home land then things are rather different. First of all, where you man come from, i mean his origin in Pakistan, I wish he is not from Gujrat District or Mirpur area. Why? because you can call these area inferno of these problems. Whatever i said before these areas are at its extreme.
    But i cannot blame your guy because its not his fault that he born in that society. One cannot choose his mothers womb. To you, may be you are suffering alot but if you ever willing to do empathy with him you may understand that he is not bad but confused. Behind all his lies (Please dont put every man in the same cage) all he wishs is to spend some time with you which he really thinks belongs to him. He perhaps lied to you because he is scared of loosing you. You may be the only real world to him which he himself created with his own will.
    I think we are emotionally fucked up but then this so called “be a man” thing is also there.

    I have to ask a question, what if you expect something from someone who dont even know he holds that?

    My Regards,
    Have a great day!

  • Gail

    June 9, 2014

    Cagedsoul,
    WELCOME to the Blog!!!
    You are the very first Pakistani man that has wrote with a sincere message.
    You were exactly 100% right on mark with every single word u said.
    Pakistani men really do have a ball and chain and that is their parents.The problem comes in for me as an American woman we are just not raised to take care of r own parents much less anyone elses parents.
    Now don’t take me wrong here we do care for them but not in the same 24/7 365 days a week if u know what I mean.
    My inlaws are not only my husbands ball and chain but they r also now my ball and chain because unless I want to divorce my husband and walk away I have to deal it.I would not have taken it so hard had my husband been upfront with me from the start and told me hey I not only have 2 kids and a wife but u have to deal my parents as well.
    My problem is he was not truthful with me and yeah it sounds easy to say well divorce him but now that I am 11 yrs into the marriage and raising 4 kids it is not so easy as it sounds.
    Here is another sad thing most woman think when they get married they can deal the inlaws because they think their inlaws r like American inlaws.You go visit them and come home.Well obviously that is just not the case at all.So they r in for a huge shock and depression when they figure out reality.When they confront their husband he is like well their my parents and the girl is like yeah their your parents not your prison warden or mine!
    Again I don’t know it really is clash of the cultures.

  • Allijah

    June 8, 2014

    Thank you for that dear cagedsoul! came at the right time for me! not a minute too soon nor too late!
    I truly appreciate your words, more than you can know.
    your explaination is really touching and sincere, and it makes perfect sense to me from what little knowledge or experience i have on this topic.
    I was just thrown by life in this situation, and i can never be grateful enough for it.
    Much appreciation to you dear.

  • Cagedsoul

    June 8, 2014

    Very interesting post. I am a pakistani guy living in Denmark and i must confess, it is indeed a problem in the society. Pakistani men ( not every one) use to live in two worlds. Their social system makes them emotionally weak and easily manipulated by their parents. I think there is nothing wrong with love, the major dilemma of pakistani men is when they love a foreign woman, they went into a fantasy world where they forget this fact that there is an unseen chain in their feet. And one day their parents grab that chain and asked them to repay for treating them good since their birth. It is a tragedy and i admit that it is not only a painful situation for the woman who is in love with us(pakistani men). They got married to someone they never love and remain in that relationship in order to save the house of card build by their social system,. But not every man is that weak. Just because one make a mistake that doesnot mean you stop yourself falling into love. I don’t believe that we have to reject our emotions for the sake of others.
    By the way, we are not that smart or clever as you mentioned in your blog, perhaps you girls once experience the real of us. Pakistani men (not all) live for their families because in their child hood they got this shit phrase that you are our hope and life. They grow up in a certain pressure which they may not admit in front of you or sometime unaware of .

    Anyways, If you think there is a way to take precautions before falling in love than please share it. Love is not just walking in the dreams holding hands but also walking on the prickles while smiling. What hidden in a heart may not turned into words but its there perhaps always.

    I am sure you all girls are very intelligent more then us. You understand us more then we do . But it is a shame to reject today’s love just because you are scared of tomorrows nightmare.

    Regards,

  • Allijah

    June 8, 2014

    Aww !! loving your kind and supportive words dear mamahutsana!! Thank you too for your kindness and love for the community ! Got South African friends! and they kick a*s !! happy you lucky lady, you!

    Gail! you are so sweet girl!! yes! i am still in the love boat.. and it gets deeper and deeper sister ! man! dang! but i will know for sure at the end of the week if i am stay in the same job or if i am moving on..

    long story short… i realized that it was not right for me to leave him on his own there.. so i reapplied for my first old job, as my own job finishes this week! lol !

    And yes, lady! i so so hear you there! my love interest has it all: the looks, the money, the smartness, we have this brain and heart invisible connection, he can read my mind and heart like nobody else ever could.. even better than me or my parents.. he can read me like an open book, and never abuses my trust and love for him, but always returns it 10 folds. and he knows he can trust me too now happy !! i dare say it.. i feel happy!

    bottom line is: even if i don’t get my first job back, we will still be in touch for a while i hope.

    but no intention of marrying him for another 2 or 3 years at least… still in love with my own man too.. you know. don’t want to hurry into anything drastic.. no big rush for me here. will pop over more often and give news!

    love you all ladies and Pakistani men out there reading this!! happy <3

  • Gail

    June 8, 2014

    Allijah,
    So u r still hanging with the Pakistani guy!
    Seems to me u r to far gone now.
    So u going to marry this guy or what?
    Dang girl I thought for sure u would run away but it seems to have made u more smitten.
    Like I warned u before becareful.I hope for your sake he is not married in Pakistan.
    I think Pakistani men are more like a feel good drug.
    They have this way of finding your weak spot and building it up.
    My husband is very good to always tell me I am the best.He has told me so much that I believe it.lol
    Even logically I know I am not but he has drilled it in my head.Also Pakistani guys have this nature of going out of their way for woman.They can drop everything and come running to your side.Woman love this.
    I could go on and on.They r totally different than white men that is for certain.
    Strangely even though my husband drives me bananas I would not trade him for a white American Guy.Ok i am tired going to bed.Have a nice day and check in more often I like knowing what is going on with u.
    Are u both still working at the same place or did u move on to a new job I know u were talking about it last time.

  • mamahutsana

    June 8, 2014

    Hi! Allijah,

    thanks for the welcome am very glad how I was warmly accepted in this free house and the boat for polygamous wives.

    my dear all I can say for now is that is their nature you as a woman also you were armed with lot of wisdom

    and I will like to Thank Allah amidst all the hardships women encounter on the daily basis He still grant u strength to stand up and face everyday as it comes.

  • Allijah

    June 7, 2014

    Hi everybody ! and Welcome to mamahutsana!
    Long time not dropped by to say hi!
    I am glad to read all the stories here and all the points of view happy eventhough they do not resonate with my own idea and point of view, I do respect all of you guys !
    I find it strange to see how Pakistani men are so popular with the ladies. They must know how to pull our strings and make us docile and submissive.. i wonder is there a boys school for them from a very young age about how to control women ? it is probably an international school called
    “How to lie, cheat to your woman and get away with it 101″ ! sorry gents from Pakistan reading this happy I had to ask ! feel free to answer to me happy
    well.. if they are all like my Pakistani friend from work, i can fully understand women falling for people like him happy I am one of them !! happy
    Well I am still in love with him, and him with me… it is all very romantic and lovely.. and I try to remain grounded from time to time happy

  • mamahutsana

    June 7, 2014

    Gail thank you yes the both of us are eaters Looools,

    I am South African and have never travelled to overseas only at neighbouring countries like Botswana

  • Kim

    June 5, 2014

    @ Gail,

    Most Indian stores carry Atta (the flour used to make roti). If I couldn’t find that, I mix half whole wheat flour and half white flour (maida) and it works quite well.

    @ Gail & Spirited, The only accosting I ever experienced over there was some guy who mistook me for a tourist when I was wandering alone around Residency Road (big shopping area of Srinagar) having been shopping, and was headed to the bus stop to go home. Yep, I went out alone all the time, or with my maid or sisters-in-law, etc…no need for a male escort unless I wanted to go by car, because I hated driving there, unless absolutely necessary. During times when all the guys were away on business, I had a male friend there who was a rickshaw driver too, and he’d take me places when I needed to go and didn’t want to bother with the bus.

    I still remember the first time I took the bus downtown and back. I had no difficulty catching the bus to go downtown, but to find the one that would take me home was challenging. I stood there at the bus stop and tried to make out the Urdu writing to figure out which one would take me back home…my luck I’d get on the wrong one and end up at the airport or something on the other end of the city! The buses had no English writing of their destinations on them! Yikes! Fortunately my reading of Urdu letters was good enough that when the bus came that went to “Brein, Nishat, Shalimar” I could make out the words and got on the right bus LOL

    Now I’m tripping down memory lane like Spirited…lOL…good times happy

    Anyway, about this guy who approached me on Residency… he tried to convince me to stay in his “guest house” LOL…then I told him who I was and what family I was married into and that I’m a resident, not a visiting tourist. He apologized profusely LOL….then again, I was in my 40′s and hardly a man magnet….and even less so now tongue

  • Gail

    June 4, 2014

    Spirited,
    I was also living in Pakistan when Bhuto was killed.
    I giggled at your story about being treated like the queen of England and having your own bodygaurds in PakiLand! Gosh how insane that world is when I think about it now.Obviously I am a White American that only speaks English SOOO yeah I stick out very well.lol
    It is soo weird how the men act there no doubt.

    mamhutsana,
    I am happy everything is going well for you and your hubby.
    So it seems u people like to eat.LOL
    We also love to eat and since I live joint family system with my inlaws I have had to learn to fix Pakistani meals although we use tortilla(mexican flat bread instead of Roti)I don’t know where to buy the wheat flour to make roti so we just use the tortillas.lol
    I wish I could be more positive about your cowife sorry about that I just had a really bad horrible negative experience with the Pakistani females but don’t disheart maybe she will come around eventually.
    What country r u in?

  • ana

    June 4, 2014

    Mamahutsana,

    Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. I really enjoy what I do here, and especially enjoy chatting with so many wonderful people from all over the planet.
    You’re correct; I will meet with opposition, but I must not tire. I reverted 28 years ago, and have since learned a lot about my religion – Islam. Alhumdulliah. I enjoy very much sharing with others the knowledge and understanding Allah has given me.

    I pray Allah grant you peace and blesses you eternally, as well, sis happy

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • mamahutsana

    June 4, 2014

    Thank You verymuch Ana for the word of comfort and verses to strenghten my faith I will refer but sadly my Qur’an is in Zulu language I will like to get the English translation one. I will be joining to the page mentioned by you though this afternoon I was there thanks. Not all people will like what you are doing you know the Word of God says we must not tire doing good things cause the reward will be abundant in the Heaven I will say keep on and May Allah grant you Peace and Bless You eternally. Amen

  • ana

    June 4, 2014

    @Mamahutsana,

    To coincide with our discussion, below is a couple ayat (verses) from Quran that are relevant happy

    “And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know”.
    Quran (Yusuf Ali): Surah 30; Ayah 22

    “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).”
    Quran (Yusuf Ali) 49: Ayah 13

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 4, 2014

    mamahutsana, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    No, it is our intent not to discriminate here. All our welcome regardless of race, creed, or color, ethnicity or anything such as it. Sometimes, however, we do speak about races or ethnicity. Some take offense, such as a few have on this thread. Some don’t like the things that were said about Pakistani men. We talk much about cultures.

    Nonetheless, we welcome everyone. Allah says He made us all of varying colors and languages, and nations and tribes so we can come to know one another, not despise one another. Insha Allah, make yourself at home here. We are all in the same boat together Boating You’re not alone.

    We do limit who can comment here. For instance, if one is a “hater” of polygamy or is staunch against it, this is not the blog for them. I find they do more to disrupt the forum rather than help. There are other blogs out there for them, even blogs that are about polygamy 411 where the commentators spend their precious time debating about this site and me. I’m flattered batting eyelashes

    mamahutsana, I kindly ask you to join us over on the most recent threat, which is: Accepting Polygamy VS. Accepting a Co-wife http://polygamy411.com/accepting-polygamy-vs-accepting-a-co-wife/ . You could continue your conversations there regardless of what the topic is. We just don’t want to lose you over here, as it’s difficult to keep track of everyone when we’re on multiple thread.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • mamahutsana

    June 4, 2014

    Spirited thanks a lot for welcoming me it means a lot to me really.I will gladly like to share with you my experiences and expect to learn more from you too my sisters.Insha Allah.thanks

  • mamahutsana

    June 4, 2014

    Gail thank you my dear but remember that men will be men no matter what you know like children you say don’t hold fire you will burn your fingers they want to hold until the experiment turns bitter,so are men even with 7 wives he still want concubines (sorry to use that name) you know what I mean.thanks for offering then I will ask when need to know something cause you are right really I need to learn more about pakistan cultures and women of course I have realized there are lot of differences and thanks again I will hang until my elder sister stretches her arms to accept me then I will shower her with love. You know Gail I treat my hubby the African way he seems to enjoy it its like a new experience to him sometimes he will laugh and I ask why you laughing and say what you said or did the women in my culture doesn’t do it they don’t talk or want to know much they accept anything and very submissive,is it tru Gail.Myself am very indipendent and a career women you know and kitchen is not my place though am a good cook, so he say when I maked him rotti for the first time he couldn’t believe you know our favourate food is pap and you can eat it with morogo(green vegetable leaves) or with meat,milk etc lol so he is teaching me most of Urdu meals he is a best cook himself it is lot of fun when it comes to that part. My mother inlaw has passed on long time my father in law is still alive but old only my brothers inlaw and their sons talk to me but mainly about business not social life you know,then can just ask how we are doing and stuff and switch to bussiness talk how’s bussiness bla bla bla you know I think they are just giving their brother and uncle support.I am also a shy person less talk with them is good for me.

  • Spirited

    June 3, 2014

    Salaams~

    @Mamahutsana, welcome to the gang! I’m really glad that you’ve decided to start posting! I find reading the mindset of my elders to be really calming and fascinating. Its really cool that your culture is quite comfortable with polygamy and its part of everyone’s mindset so its not anything crazy or out of the ordinary. I can imagine you ladies don’t have half as many problems — there’s probably no need for the men to go sneaking around and lying for example! That’s the big thing that makes me angry (as many here know by now laughing ). Please jump in on any other active topic and share your experiences with the rest of us! I’d love to hear any wisdom or advice you could give <3
    Oh and please never worry about race, at least to me, race has never been an issue. (religion, yes. race, no)

    @Gail, ah ha laughing Oh I was warned about what you spoke of! Before getting married, when we'd go out, my sister & I were usually flanked by uncles/male cousins with my mom in the lead for shopping trips. After getting married, I had my trusty brothers-in-law, one behind, and one either to my side or infront (depending where my husband was — if he was to my side, he'd have a death grip on my shoulder or arm laughing ) with a sister-in-law holding my hand with an iron-grip (or mother-in-law). I was always heavily fortified. Of course it was to avoid men from touching/pinching/groping butt or breasts, but my family was also worried about kidnappings, because I'm half-Kashmiri, I don't particularly look Punjabi and my urdu has a slight English accent, so it was easy to tell I was an outsider. With all the crazyness going on during those days, they were right to be extra-careful (one of the times I was there was when Behnazzir Bhutto was assassinated, for example).

    I never particularly minded the escorting. I actually felt kind of special because of it! Although I did get antsy not being able to drive there (because Gail, you must know how absolutely insane to drive over there laughing ). And I loooove cars & driving them! I did drive (stick-shift) occassionally in the late hours of the night with my husband or brothers-in-law along, just to go for a nice drive. We would also often go out at night for a walk in the village after dinner (of course with the entourage) big grin I enjoyed those times over there for the most part, though I can't bear the summer (and with the power outages, it was a struggle to survive the heat) plus the lack of driving. If push came to shove & I ever had to live in Pakistan, I could probably manage, though I'm happier living in my home country happy

    I think I rambled a bit there, but you brought up some nice memories I wanted to share happy

  • Gail

    June 3, 2014

    mamahutsana,
    Wow 5 or more who could find the time!LOL
    If u have any questions about Pakistan I will be more than happy to give u the low down.lol
    I am sorry to here you cowife took polygamy so hard.
    Seem like u r a blessing in her life just she has not realized it yet.
    Just hang in there eventually u will figure out if she is going to ever come around or not.
    How about your inlaws?DO they chat with u via phone or computer is all ok on that side?

  • mamahutsana

    June 3, 2014

    @ Gail In our culture a man can marry upto or more than five depends how he gonna make them happy and care to all of them and we all know the first one is our mother in law the husband is actually hers,the husbands also tought not to discriminate among wives if he buy car for one he must buy for all the house etc,so in this scenario is visa versa as the cultures differ I am just neutral and awaits the day my senior sister accept me officially then I can give to her all the necessary due respect and love. For now I give her space and time to get use to the changes that was brought to her life because at first after hearing about me she was admitted in the hospital for brain stroke and I felt so bad I pushed the hubby to go home and spend more time with her to give required care and support but Thank God she is fine now and she need some time to get used to this shocking situation her chidren are grown ups the last born is 19 so she never thought this might happen to her I understand my husband is a loving and caring man and he values my opinions and listen to my advices so this helped a lot to her recovery.God Bless

  • mamahutsana

    June 3, 2014

    Assilum alluikam,thank you very much Ana for your warm welcome and everybody in the house I really feel wellcomed I feel humbled and I really appreciate.Ana thank you for this site I’ve been following for quite sometime I did not register at first but I would visit here and to be hohest most of the stories here made me more strong. As an African Black Woman I think is huge step I took to introduce myself to you Sisters it really took me long I was wondering if I was going to be accepted thanks to God Allmighty one who does not judge by race or colour or ethnicity.thank you. @ Gail thank you for asking you are most wellcome.we are two years in marriage as a woman I understand the pain of having another woman in our lovely marriages so I just listen to my hubby when he talks about my senior co-wife,it is rather not easy for her to accept our sharing more esspecially with a woman of another culture I do really empathise and understand.In African Culture we we taught that the first wife to your husband is like your mother in law she controls everything in the marriage regarding the husband we were / are taught to communicate things with her things that involve the three of you not only with your husband that one reduces anger,hatracy and jealouse, we need to humble ourselves under the first wives and treat them with respect befriend if possible,though my case is different as I am far and we have not met personally I also respect her a lot for not wanting to go to pakistan I think is for the best unless she visits first but according to hubby she don’t like to travel and I think it is of the best.I don’t know Gail if I answered you correctly

  • Gail

    June 2, 2014

    Ana,
    Yeah I am going to put her case this winter but it will take years but it is hope of a brighter future for her daughter that I want to offer her.
    Ana you would not believe a woman can not even walk from shop to shop without males coming up behind because it is so crowded and trying to stick there fingers in the A$$ through their clothes.It is insanity at it’s very highest.
    I have never had this happen to me but hubby says this is the norm there.I always have 2 males with me when I go out so know one comes near me.The males do very fast as to not get caught.
    Spirited might know something about this as well not certain.For lack of a better word it is just nuts.
    Also men will drop their cell numbers in front of a girl and sometimes the girls are not so smart and they pick it up and call the boy and they start an online affair or meet somewhere.My younger sister inlaw actually did this and I found out and reported her to my father inlaw and come to find out the boy was put up to messing with her from an inside family boy(my older sister inlaws husbands young boy the same age as my sister inlaw it was his best friend)He was trying to get her to go to different country and marry her.She was angry with me for awhile but after awhile she came to me and start crying and told me thank u I saved her life.
    I was also very angry with her why she was so stupid and put me in a position that i had to tell on her.She was 14 when i married my husband and around 17 or 18 that time.

  • Gail

    June 2, 2014

    mamhutsana,
    You sound like the most awesome cowife ever seriously.I think u r logical and have a great head on your shoulders.You for certain are your husbands blessing.I have alot of questions for u?
    How long have u been married? How does his 1st wife act towards u? Why will u not go to Pakistan is it because u think keeping distance is best?
    Really your attitude is wonderful.

  • ana

    June 2, 2014

    Gail,

    I’m very happy to live in the goood ole U.S of A, as well. I thank Allah that I can go out my house alone, at anytime, and not fear I’ll be molested or raped, stoned, or placed in prison. I’m thankful to Allah that I don’t have the Islamic police breathing down my back or on my tail, following behind me.

    I haven’t been to China Town, in Manhattan, in quite some time now. I used to go regularly, at least every other weekend. I used to go to a herbal (teas, herbs etc.)shop on Lafayette st., get coffee, go to the jewelry stores, etc. The streets were jammed pack with people almost on top of one another all the time. Sometimes my wali/bestess and I would lose each other for a while, due to the massive amounts of people moving about. I never had to deal with anyone rubbing up against me, or touching me, and didn’t see it done to anyone else.

    I just don’t know how people in some of these countries got stuck in time. It reminds me of the westerns when men used to ride up on a horse and scoop a woman up and take off with her – things like it.

    It’s Alhumdulliah, if you could get your sister-in-law immigration papers completed so she and her child could come here. I certainly understand people wanting to escape from the place.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    June 2, 2014

    Gail,

    Yeah, you tell him darn straight. He needs to go watch, “Zero Dark Thirty”, a very good movie about it, if he doesn’t know the facts.

    These people are quick to blame everything on the United States. United States is the “Great Satan”. All these other countries with stonings, Honor Killings, child bride marriages of 10 year old by old men, and you name it, it’s there, marrying people against their will, worshiping parents etc. They need to ask themselves why Allah allow the non-Muslims to come into their country and take it over.

    Gail, it’s okay. I was pissed off when I read his or her post. I’m assuming it’s a him. I was going to comment and went so far as to write it, but then deleted it. I said to myself, why bother. When you wrote, I’m like yeah, baby. Green light – GO!

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    June 2, 2014

    Ana,
    I should mention I am going to put my sister inlaws case and her baby for immigration just as soon as my father inlaw gets his USA citizenship.She deserves to have hope for her and her daughter and I intend to be the one to give her that hope of a better future for her and her daughter however small that maybe.

  • Gail

    June 2, 2014

    Ana,
    I am sorry to bring up Osama in all this but these Pakistani men rub me the wrong way.I didn’t mean to bate Mobi into going off the wrong track.It just that they act so innocent but they come from a male dominated society and alot of them their manor of speaking when they do blog is just to demean woman so many of them.It rubs me the wrong way on alot of levels.lol
    I wish we could change gender roles in these male dominated countries.I always wonder how the men in these countries would act if they were molested or raped or beat the h@ll out of by their wife and her sisters or have there mother inlaw complane about how lazy they are and what a bad husband they are.Oh I could go on and on for days on this topic.LOL
    Thanks G.D we live in USA or European countries Ladies and were born free is all I have to say.I thank G.D every single day I was not born in a place like Pakistan and stuck there.
    I Like Pakistan don’t get me wrong but the difference between me and my sister in-laws is that I can get on a plane and fly out of that country anytime I choose.
    Here is the really sad sad part that the majority of the woman bash other woman.For example my ex cowife claims my sister inlaw left her parents home of her own free will and came back to my inlaws home in Pindi which is a twisted LIE.
    Sure she walked of her own free will but what else could she do when they were treating her like a prostitute and not feeding her or her baby anything but small scraps and waiting till she was out of ear shot to talk about her or make plans to steal her families money and properties and vehicles.Yeah she had a real choice.
    Her 1st husband actually tried to kill her by trying to force her hand into a washing machine with a live wire in it.
    Thanks G.D my sister inlaw was smart enough she told her first husband who is her 1st cousin if he did it he might as well stick his hand in also because her brothers and dad will hunt him down and kill him.
    I love my sister in-law so much because she has a mouth on her from being around me but my inlaws says she is SIMPLE.I tell u the truth that girl is the smartest one in the bunch.LOL G.D bless her and her baby daughter!!

  • Gail

    June 2, 2014

    Mobi,
    They did not find Osama in India or Sir Lanka now did thy precious.He was found in Pakistan and not only was he found in Pakistan with his Haram of wives and children he was sitting right next door to a Pakistani Military Base with his entire family and u know dang well that Pakistani military can sniff out anything they darn well please.Well it did not please them to sniff out Osama.Don’t use the excuse USA was involved because he was not found on our soil now was he? Just SAYING!!
    Facts r Facts and u can’t change that.

  • ana

    June 2, 2014

    mamahutsana, Welcome to the 411 happy

    Thank you for sharing with us about your life. It sounds you’ve got a good working polygamous marriage. Alhumdulliah. I don’t blame you one bit for not visiting Pakistan. There is no real need for you to go there, from what I know. Insha Allah, some of his family will come here on a visit, if you’d like it.

    It’s so good you are studying Islam and love and enjoy it. It’s beautiful. Read the Quran with sincerity, wanting to learn it and live it, and Allah will open your heart to it. Allah will give you contentment in this world’s life. He will give you light from His Light. Again, thank you for writing in.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • mamahutsana

    June 1, 2014

    I am married to a paki man I know he is married back home with six children and I am a widow of four he treat me and the kida well. I respect his first marriage we agreed he is my husband in my country as he avoids adultery but he visits home and I remain running his businesses and send him money when he is overseas. I am a black African woman so african culture embraces poligamy so I see no problem being his second wife I just don’t intend in anyway to go to pakistan I am 48 he is 52 we are matured enough and knows what we want I also have no intentions of breaking his first marriage infact I am the one encouraging him to visit his family currently I am studying Islam and I Love and enjoy to do it.God Bless

  • mamahutsana

    June 1, 2014

    I am married to a pakistani man all is well.

  • ana

    June 1, 2014

    @Shereen, hello

    It saddens me to hear about what you have been going through in your marriage. It’s good you have the strength to leave him.

    You said you had heard stories about “some” Pakistani men, but you didn’t believe them. It’s common for us to reject information that we hear when it goes against what we desire. You are not alone in taking that position. I think we’ve all been there. I certainly have.

    Now, it is important that you move forward. You mustn’t beat up on yourself about what you fell for. We all err. We all experience loses. It not the end of the world. You need to see it as a learning experience. It was something that you had to go through for whatever reason. We know it is the case, as you went through it, and can’t change what happen. You can only hope not to repeat it or anything like it again.

    People have agendas. Some are masters at manipulation. They are good at what they do. I don’t know if you believe in God or not. If you do, you know God Sees and Knows all things. The man who duped you has not gotten away with anything. Try not to focus on him. Try to put this behind you as quickly as you can and move forward. Always go forward. Keep it moving ahead… Don’t look back.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Shereen

    June 1, 2014

    I am married to a pakistani man and he has been full of deceit since the time I have known him until this day but thanks to Allah I am now separated from him and am seeking a divorce which he is refusing to give. This man imran only married me for money. He managed to sweet talk me into giving him $25,000 Australian $$$$.
    However once he knew he couldn’t get anymore from me he completely changed towards me and started to verbally abuse me everyday.

    He also had not one but MANY affairs during our marriage which I only discovered after my separation. He never took me any where he would be known. He would always blame for his mishaps. My life with him was hell. Before i got married to this imran person I heard stories about pakistani men but I guess I never believed it or never thought this would happen to me but it did. Not all pakistani men are like this but mine was and the others that I have heard of….never trust a pakistani men in my opinion.

  • ana

    May 26, 2014

    @mobi,

    surprise Hello to you too. I kindly ask you to watch your language, bud. We all get carried away from time to time, but at least use some symbols %^#& to make it easy on the eyes and ears.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • mobi

    May 26, 2014

    its true in Some cases. But You cant use Pakistani Men, you can use some of pakistani men. You fuckers all the time blaming pakistanis. what did pakistanis to you, Arabs and Afghan did 9/11 but you fucking mind fighting with pakistanis whenever you get a chance. and The problem u were describing above is not with only Pakistani men,its mixed many indians,SriLankans,Bengalis,Nipalis and many from other country,they cheat sometime with Uk or US girls after marriages.

  • ana

    May 15, 2014

    Imram,

    I’m glad you got to meet some of our blog family members here happy Thank you very much for imputing on this topic. It’s nice you were objective about some of the Pakistani people and the dilemmas they face.

    Not allowing foreigners into the United States would not work, as America was built on the premise of liberty and freedom; although, not everyone was free at one time. Immigrants built this country. We would not change the foundation our country was built on. We must have some restrictions on people moving about from country to country for security reasons. To totally deny people access, simply wouldn’t work. Furthermore, this is Allah’s world. People go where He places them.

    With regard to the negativity associated with some Pakistani men and their treatment of foreign women, awareness is important. If an American woman meets up with a Pakistani male, she should exercise caution. She should do her homework to learn as much about him that she can, so as not to fall victim to some of their practices etc.

    I’ve said it before here about Nigerians. If a Nigerian approaches me with an offer to conduct business with him, I will certainly think twice about it, and, most likely, wouldn’t get involved based on all I’ve heard of “Nigerian Scams”. It’s just part of life.

    People need to be aware that there is evil and good in people. A person who has a lot of good in his or her heart may want to see only the good in others and they end up getting taken. Some people want to get their desires fulfilled and they end up going for the okie doke – they were blinded by desire.

    We simply encourage people to “beware”. One can go to a tourist country and receive alert to beware of high crime areas and not to go off the beaten path – to beware of thievery and robberies etc. It’s an alert.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Imran

    May 14, 2014

    Marie and Gail,

    Hi, I can see where you people are coming from. Well, I criticize my kinsmen most of the time, because I think they’re majorly responsible for bringing Pakistan down, its deteriorated image, and the backlash it’s facing these days. I love my country a lot and abhors anybody that brings a bad name to it.

    In my own case, it’s mostly about self-respect, integrity and honesty. But, in Pakistan, these qualities may be seen as weakness. I personally wouldn’t imagine doing a thing to a girl that you may have faced. It would make me fall in my owns eyes, would rather not marry at all. Already cleared to my family years ago that marriage is my own business.

    I came here because this topic suddenly caught my eye. A solution? Well, just stop giving nationalities or passports at all, all this mess would die its own death. Plus, my countrymen needs a very powerful dose of self respect.

    Regards.

  • Gail

    May 14, 2014

    Imran,
    I am Gail If u want to be horrified about something read my story.I doubt by the time u r finished u will have much sympathy for your Pakistani kinsmen if u r a decent person.

  • marie

    May 13, 2014

    @imran. I think most woman treat men with distrust (not just pakistanis),until the man shows/proves otherwise. It just so happens that some woman who have married Pakistani men lied for similar reasons, like being married already, visas, money ect. I mentioned the post to my husband and that some Pakistani men have wrote in to express there dislike of how Pakistani men are portrayed on the blog. I was siding with Ana on the basis that woman don’t come here complaining about their English,american,nigerian husbands as much as they do about a Pakistani husband. My said he can see that a person would be offended. But we as humans when something bad happens to us or someone who we know we warn others. It’s natural. It may seem unfair to you and I can understand it. I don’t like it when people presume that I am oppressed or my husband make me wear hijab or I’m brainwashed, but that how things go sometime. All I can do is know that that is not the truth and move on. If you know any polygamous Pakistani men who are the opposite to the obove mentioned get them to write on here

  • Imran

    May 13, 2014

    I’m Pakistani and I’m deeply mortified reading this. It seems some bad eggs bring others disrepute as well.
    Those guys who are genuine with feelings and still be treated with mistrust, very sad. sad

  • Jessi

    May 8, 2014

    I cannot thank you enough. my ex called me and wanted to see me. I agreed to see him the next day. He said he had been thinking about me and would like us to get back together. On the 18th day after contacting you, he told me he broke up with the other woman and has told her that he and I are back together. He has not yet asked me to marry him, but so far, is great. I am a firm believer and I am forever thankful for your help. I am sure you will be hearing from me again. Thank you again from the bottom of my heart. For those who are heart broken you can be happy like me by contacting him

  • ana

    May 2, 2014

    Oh, jamal, was that really suppose to hurt me. CrybabyYou’ve got to do better than that.

    What happened? You came to the United States and a western white woman saw through your game, and told you to get up out her face. Poor thang, you. You sound like a sore loser Loser sign. Get back on the plane and go back to Pakistan to your wife/cousin.

    Go to another blog and finish belly ache ing there. I don’t have time for you here.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • jamal magsi

    May 2, 2014

    then Allah should be blamed not pakistanis who are used as HIS tools.
    //from what i understand women in pakistan can’t be vocal or else they stand a chance of getting shot in head…//
    from what i understand your husband married another girl? you weren’t good enough for him?

  • ana

    May 2, 2014

    @jamal magsi,

    I am a firm believer that Allah is a Just God and everyone gets exactly what they deserve, no more and no less. I am getting exactly what I deserve and have gotten exactly what I deserve. You and your Pakistani people are getting exactly what you and they deserve, as well. People need to know the Truth and if people feel they’ve been wronged, they can express it here. If the shoe fits, wear it! It’s my motto…

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • jamal magsi

    May 2, 2014

    Solution: DON’T MARRY OUSIDE YOUR RACE SPECIFICALLY PAKISTANIS.

    it is our preference whom you gonna marry so don’t marry pakistanis but PLEASE stop ridiculing 180 million people as we have both good and bad just like any other race.
    Personally i believe those western women are losers who marry pakistanis because nobody wanted them in their own race.

    i have read your shit comments below about pakistanis and to give you the taste of your own medicine you people deserved if you were cheated because ALLAH is a just GOD and he did what you deserved so blame Allah not pakistanis.

  • ana

    May 2, 2014

    jamal magsi,

    I’m sure what I’ve stated about Pakistani men happens with men of other nationalities, as well. But, you see, the thing is, women aren’t coming to this blog complaining about those men. They come here with stories about their Pakistani husbands or boyfriends. They complain that their boyfriends or husbands have deceived them in that they have other wives tucked away secretly in their native land. It seems they somehow forgot to mention to their American wives or girlfriends that they have these wives back home.

    Another case scenario is they lie and say they went home to Pakistan and their mothers SUDDENLY made them marry cousins once they got there. These men claim they knew nothing of the impending marriage to the cousins beforehand (which is a load of bull sh!t) Bullshit BS

    Women come to this blog with their stories. I don’t make this stuff up. I’m not Pakistani. I’ve never been to Pakistan and it didn’t happen to me. This blog is simply a sounding board for those in distress. What? Should I silence their voices?

    I don’t know if you are Pakistani or not, but if what’s being said is giving your country and the men a bad reputation, perhaps you need to rally together with your Pakistani brothers and sisters in your country, and do something about it. From what I understand women in Pakistan can’t be vocal or else they stand a chance of getting shot in the head Headshot suicide or acid thrown in their faces.

    People are quick to want to stick their heads in the sand like an ostrich, and not face reality. They’d rather sweep the dirt under the rug.

    What do you suggest as a solution, Mr magsi????

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • jamal magsi

    May 2, 2014

    Azim Mirza,
    Ana and company are living the legacy of their racist fore fathers. who first discriminated Blacks now it is the turn of Pakistanis. it is in their genes to be racist.
    Ana, the way you ridicule 180 million different souls based on your limited experience and rely on the expertise of this Gail( btw who is the worst of you lot) doesn’t make you any good person either. meeting new muslims have always been an emotional experience for me, but you my sister are a bad addition to ummah. never mind we already have bad bad muslims so you are not totally out of place among muslims.

  • ana

    May 1, 2014

    Azim Mizra,

    Another thing you need to be mindful of is that many of these Pakistani men meet, date or marry American women or women from the UK who are not Muslim. It wouldn’t matter whether these men swore on the Quran or not. They must not care much about what is in the Quran, as the Quran tell them not to marry non-Muslim women. They’ve been lied to that they can marry “People of the Book”. There are no “People of the Book” living today in 2014. “People of the Book” are the people who were living before the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received the revelation or during the time he received the revelation. Those people received the original books such as the Torah or Scripture revealed to Prophet Jesus – the same message the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received (the Quran).

    Muslim men are marrying non-Muslim women, and expect them to accept polygamy. It’s difficult enough for a Muslim woman to accept polygamy. My husband was foolish to try to have his other wife accept polygamy when she wasn’t even Muslim and if she did take the Shahadah, she did so only to marry him. What good is it? A woman has to have a love for Allah and belief in His Book – everything in it in order for her to accept polygamy truly in her heart.

    Anyhow, many of the Pakistani men “cheat” as they know non-Muslim women definitely won’t accept polygamy and they fear losing the women. They are not honest with these women. Here Allah has made polygamy permissible, yet the men resort to “cheating”. It’s way sad sad

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    May 1, 2014

    Asim Mirza,

    Welcome to our home. It appears English is your second language. You’re doing very well with it. Keep up the good work. happy I’m impressed by those who know more than one language. Insha Allah, I’m going to try to focus on learning Spanish so I can speak it fluently. I had a couple years of it in High School, which was a loooong time ago. It’s nice to have you here.

    You asked why the US and UK girls look for men from other countries. I think because they are intrigued by foreign men. Why do you have a white wife? Pakistan men are sweet, charming, suave, romantic men from what I understand. They sweep the women off their feet. They know what to say and how to win the women over, so to speak. They make women feel way special, attractive and cared for. The men are very attentive to the women’s needs in that way. I had Pakistan men come onto me and flirt with me before I married my husband. I thought I was way special when they did it. Now, I see it’s what these men do. They do it to probably any single woman in the UK or US. Many work at gas stations (service stations). They come in contact with a lot of women. They have an opportunity to bait women easily.

    You said if the man is a true Muslim and Pakistani, he will not cheat forever. He shouldn’t “Cheat” at all. Allah has permitted polygamy so a man could have up to four wives at one time. There is no need for a man to ever “cheat”. I think these men lie because they fear the women won’t have anything to do with them, if the women know these men are already married or will one day go back to Pakistan to marry cousins whom they were promised to probably at birth.

    It’s very nice to know you have been married to your white wife for eleven years. I will be married 12 years this month. My husband and I, Insha Allah, will be celebrating our anniversary at the beginning of the month, but we married towards the end of the month. Insha Allah, we will celebrate at the end of the month, as well, maybe the middle too laughing My husband won’t be with me on the actual day of our wedding, but I know we will be with each other in thought big grin. He will be with me the next day, which is the anniversary of our nice, large, formal wedding reception. It’s the holiday weekend, as well. So, I’m happy. Anyhow, back to you. You said your wife is not interested in your family. Have you taken her to Pakistan to meet and greet your family? Do they know about her? If they do, do they like her and embrace her or want nothing to do with her? You said she doesn’t need your family; she only needs you that leads me to believe she’s not welcome by your family in Pakistan. Maybe I’m wrong in my assumption. Forgive me, if I am.

    You asked why the focus is on Pakistani men and cheating. I think it’s because it seems these men are schooled. They seem to be taught that they need to go to the US or UK and meet white women, so they could get “Green Cards” or Immigration papers to become citizens. They then have the women in the US or UK helping them financially and in getting them acclimated to the country. The men are then expected to go back home and marry cousins in arranged marriages, or simply send money back home to care for their families there. The women in the US and UK are used, so to speak, as a stepping stone for their financial progress.

    You ask why this is said to be happening with Pakistanis and not men from other countries, as well. I think it happens with other nationalities, but not to the magnitude it happens with Pakistani men. As I stated, I think these men are educated in the art of manipulation and deception. They are masters in the art of deception.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Asim Mirza

    May 1, 2014

    I Checked Your All Topic And I have Some Questions For You. Would You Like to Answer Me?

    1 . Why US or UK Girls Look Out For Other Men In The World Cant Those Girls Find a Single Man In There Own Country?

    2. Why Just Pakistani Man ? There are Many many Other Countries Man Cheating also ?

    And in Last I Got Married With (White Girl) And Its 11 year Of Our Marriage And we living Much happy then every days goes pass.

    And Why we last longer ( My Wife Belong To me She Interested In Me Not my family as long i m making her happy every day shes not bother.

    IF US or UK Girl Getting married with Pakistani Muslim Guy The Only Way To Make Yourself Safe is Put that Guy Hand on Quran And Make him Say He Will Never Cheat You Or lie You and He Will Treat You As His Best

    If Hes Ture Muslim And Pakistan He Will Not gonna Cheat You Forver

    (My Own )

  • maryam

    April 29, 2014

    Hello Alijah,

    I’ve just read your post about what your Pakistani friend about being muslim/islam.

    Firstly, please don’t ever think that a person deserves “2 autistic children”. We have no control over things like that and every child is a blessing regardless.

    Secondly, it’s actually really insulting, sorry but I just wanted you to be aware how offensive it is when people try to slur Prophet Muhammed with the label you referred to. I gather it was your Friend’s explanation not yours, so I’m not having a go just letting you know in case you didn’t.

    It’s sad your friend thinks whatever mumbo jumbo he was raised with is Islam and has rejected Islam on that basis.

    I guarantee when he’s in Pakistan he fully acts the observant muslim son regardless what he says to you. If he didn’t like it there why would he go back for 3 weeks? Wouldn’t he avoid going if he didn’t have to?

    Be careful that he may be judging you based on your relationship/history with the other men. Even if you’re not intimate, he may be judging your morality nonetheless based on your willingness to flirt with him while you’re with someone else.

    Enjoy your new job. I hope your female friend finds a good man too.

  • Alijiah

    April 26, 2014

    Gail lady! you sure made me giggle!!
    no, my partner is not the jealous type, well he does not mind having a girlfriend that others like… as long as he stay on top of things at least winking ! and he is happy
    He is very faithful and we know all we do. He tells me of female who fancy him, and I tell him of men who fancy or flirt with me. And it is fine with us both as long as there is nothing else but flirting and joking, and being friends. no harm done for either of us. He met a few times the man who wants to marry me for 15 years, but he knows that i would never go for that man, so it is fine.. the other man however, is not fine with any of this and is very jealous.. but.. since he is married to a muslim women, before he met me.. He has not converted, the marriage was just a civil marriage, no church ceremony either. He offered to divorce her and to marry me 3 times, and i have always turned him down.. he deserves what he has now: a muslim wife who controls him, and 2 autistic kids.. so no, i won’t be having any of it, even if he divorces that woman who made several threats to kill me publically.. i will not take him.
    I trust my current boyfriend, because we love and undsertand each other and have the same view on many things.
    I assure you it is all very platonic, and only showing appreciation and respect with the 3 of them, well my partner gets a bit more than that from time to time happy
    If you think this is bad.. I used to be a lot worse in my younger age… but I would never ever cheat on my partner now, as someone did cheat on me before, and I did not like it a bit. I would not treat anybody like that.
    Love and appreciation is a natural feeling between man and woman, so is physical attraction, it is healthy and natural, nothing wrong with it, as long as it remains platonic i believe happy
    It happens between people weather we are aware of it or not.
    And.. to answer your next question, i have not been looking for the attention for any of those men, except the attention of my current partner, who i have chosen for his many qualities compatible with me. If those people like me and like to play with fire, even though i have told them on many occasions that i am not intersted, it is not my responsability nor my guilt. They both know I am with someone else, it is their choice to play dangerous games, i am not pushing them nor encouraging them. So the karma will go to them I believe. I am doing nothing wrong at all, other than trying to avoid them, which is sometimes impossible as work, friends, or circumstances keep bringing us together.
    In fact because I do like the Pakistani man a little too much from what I should, I am leaving my work, and will take a new work place.. so there is really nothing more that I can do now to keep him away.
    After June, I will have no reason to see him ever again if he does not ask me to. And even if he asks, i am not sure I would meet him on his own or anything, as it would not be wise, given the full picture and the definite level of physical attraction.
    If I do decide to meet him, then I will tell my boyfriend about it.
    As to me being polygamous, in fact there are certain muslim tribes (Touaregs) in Kenya, and in other parts of Africa and even in Tibet where the woman has up to four men. And the men can only have one woman. I think it is because of the fact that there are more men than women mainly or that they interpret the Qur’an in a different way.
    I don’t mind polygamy and polyandry to some extent, but the rights have to be the same for both genders, meaning that man and woman both can have 4 husbands and 4 wives at the same time (which I also believe exists somewhere on the planet).
    Also i think that there has to be a length (at least one year), there is no kissing, no sexual activity between anybody, everytime that a couple rotates.
    Or else, the other way of doing this is to never go back to a physical relationship with the previous husband or wife. Just to stick to being friends, and to have family responsabilities towards the children. and it would not be a problem, as they would all have another husband or another wife..

    But to be honest, I like the free life style too much of loving whoever one wants and when one wants, with no commitments, no strings attached, independance and freedom, that is more like me, rather than bothering with marriage, divorce, jealousy etc..
    the universe has brought the right man for me at the right time in the past always, or no man at all for me for years.. it all happens for a reason i am sure.
    The thing is i will not marry just for the sake of getting married, of security, or of having a family. If i marry, I would like to make sure it is to the right man, but we can never be sure of that, can we? marriage and children, the materialistic life style is not for everybody happy

  • Gail

    April 26, 2014

    Aijiah,
    Dang girl are u sure your not interested in Polygamy for yourself to take several husbands.LOL
    Keep in your mind if u r flirting and u have a boyfriend u can also think he is doing the same.I am a firm believer in what comes around goes around and treat others like u wish to be treated.It’s your life but with u having a few men and flirting seems to me u r playing with fire and will eventually get burned.I know u r not really all that religious but logically speaking if your boyfriend comes to know u r flirting around I doubt he would be very happy about that.Anyway it is your life just use good judgement.

  • Alijiah

    April 26, 2014

    Thanks Gail, yes my friend Omarah is dating, i met one of her dates (a black guy from Africa) and she dated a guy from Lebanon for a few dates. None of these worked out. She does like white guys and tried to chat up a few, but with no success, as they all know the deal.
    I also had a white friend who was engaged to be married for 4 years and lived with this Indian man, but he had to go back to India to marry there … she was depressed for 2 years and wanted to commit suicide for ages…
    No worries Gail, I know what you are saying, and I know that he knows that i am very aware of Pakistani culture by now. And we are playing with it at this stage.
    However, he knows I have a partner in my own country and he knows i am really only looking for nice company and some charm / romance.
    I cannot date him for 2 years after i leave my workplace, although when i change jobs in June, there will be less pressure on me not to see him, as it will not be so obvious if we see each other, with me not being in the same work place.
    Bottom line: i am not about to leave my boyfriend, he is a genuine man, with lots of kindness and love.
    I guess I just enjoy the safe flirting now happy will there be something else after that? probably not because:
    1- we will no longer be in the same work place in a few weeks
    2 – my work contract
    3 – my actual partner
    4 – if he wants someone to help him with him acquiring a nationality in the next 3 years, he knows that i CANNOT BE that person because of work. It would be a lot easier for him to do online dating and find a fish to catch there, with no work issues or him being threatened to be send back for violating his work contract terms and conditions.
    He would be better off meeting someone online, if that it the main thing that he is after, with no work connections, no contract and conditions, someone younger and who knows nothing about his culture, and someone who is available.
    Yes there is chemistry between us, yes we do appreciate each other more than work collegues, yes we enjoy the flirting, but nothing more will happen and we both know it, not before 2 years and a bit… lol

    I am sure that you genuinely love your husband otherwise you would have left him a very long time ago happy or now even… so perhaps you are soulmates after all if there is such a thing happy !! it is just that things on Earth are not what they are in the higher dimensions.

    I also have a man (yes a third one) who I am supposed to marry by the way, but that I have been rejecting for oh… well.. shall we say alsmost 15 years now.. he is very wealthy and powerful, but i have no interest in him or his money.
    So if I have the courage and conviction to say no to an arranged marriage for 15 years, I am sure others will too happy

    Thank you Gail! hugs and love to everybody on the blog happy

  • Gail

    April 25, 2014

    Alijiah,
    Do u know any Pakistani woman married to white men whose parents are Pakistani and not mix with white people? I don’t know even one to be frank.
    Again it sounds like to me your GF is hiding the fact that she will have an arranged marriage.I am sure her being raised in Europe she will not want a Pakistani husband but I can’t imagine her parents allowing her to marry a white man and esp a nonmuslim.If she is dating men at all I am pretty certain it is behind her families back as Pakistani people in general take their daughters virginity very very serious.

  • Gail

    April 25, 2014

    Alijiah,
    If u could see my face as I am reading your post.
    You think what he told you was some great divine revelation that he thinks like YOU? Girl GIRL GIRL You really need to purchase yourself a bull$hit detector!
    Listen the first think u need to know about Pakistani men they are very smart and anything u ask them they pick up very quickyyy.
    A pakistani man is very suave in letting u think WOW we have everything in common and he is the best thing since sliced bread.GIrl if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck it’s a duck.
    I see myself in you 11 years ago.I was so in love with my hubby then boyfriend thought he hung the moon and the stars and Jupiter and Mars.I actually thought we were soul mates if their is such a thing.He also talked like your paki friend and told me I was for him and he was for me only.He wanted me as his bestfriend because he already had a wife.I thought at the time he meant he was talking about his relationship with his exwife.Guess what he was keeping her on the side for 8 yrs.
    If u want to buy what he is selling you go right ahead my dear but don’t be an idiot about it check his status and make certain he is not using u to gain permanent residence in your country in your behalf.Yes I know he is in the country but I believe u said it was on a work permit so don’t play with your life in this fashion and just throw caution to the wind.He has ties to Pakistan and he has males cousins there in Pakistani that he goes and hangs with they talk about marrying foreign woman to get residence.It is a known fact.
    If u noticed he knew enough to explain to u he is not like all the others thats your first clue that he says he is COMPLETE opposite he is the exception to the rule my A$$. I will say one thing Pakistani’s can blow the best smoke!
    Again for your own sake don’t buy what he is selling and take everything that comes from his mouth with a grain of salt.Ask him questions like how often does he go to Pakistan to get idea how attached he is there.Ask him about the mosque and what he does when he is there.Ask about female cousins which ones are hoping to get with him.I am 100% his mom has a nice cutee all picked out as they do there level best to keep money and properties in the family.They want to marry in the family because in their mind they are getting a good husband or wife.
    Later on he will say his parents are pressuring him to marry a Pakistani cousin like he did not already know that from oh lets say basically birth.I can almost 100% assure you he is blowing smoke sorry.
    If u really like him and want to get to the truth of the mater quiz him about his aunts and uncles and their daughters then see all girls in his age range.Then chat about those girls u will eventually figure out if u r smart enough which girl he is intended to marry.I been around long enough seen the game played to many times.Anyway hope I gave u some good advice that u can think on.
    Again if u want to marry this boy it is ok but go in with eyes wide open don’t be snowed by his words.
    If u end up marrying him u better understand polygamy may end up being a real thing in your life and if the cousin wants u out of the pic u better get ready for the entire family to be cols and distant with u.
    I want to say one more thing.I won my husband by default u can say.His cousin screwed him very good and abused his sister otherwise he was telling me to move on until he figured out she was shady.I could have moved on and I had the chance twice to divorce him in the last 2 yrs and marry 2 different men.I have had 2 different marriage proposals.I decided against it.

  • Alijiah

    April 25, 2014

    Hi everybody!
    nice to be back here!
    well, we are both back to work now and i have decided to work for a different company in June.
    Seen my lovely wonderful Pakistani man a few times already. He was very tired after flying back from Pakistan.
    He has been his usual self since yesterday and we had one hour chat today at work during our meeting.
    i asked him about my Pakistani friend Omarah who is desperate to find a man, but has no luck with men at all. i asked him if i should tell her to get an arranged marriage, as white men run away from her, thinking that she will be married off in Pakistan, or to a Pakistani man.
    Omarah grew up in Europe as well, just as him, and she does not want to have anything to do with Pakistani men.. because they have several wives in Pakistan in her own words…
    He said it is true, and that he would not recommend any Pakistani man to anybody lightly.
    I asked him then what he thought about polygamy and he said it is some archaic tradition in his view, a hypoctisy and that he looks down at men who do those kind of things. As in his view women and men are equal, and that women were and sadly still are nothing more than possessions to most men in his country, not worth more than a cow, which he find shameful, as there is much violence and injustice against women in the muslim world, and he is not proud of that.
    He also said that because there was no contraception, these rules were made to ensure of the father of a child is the one who is feeding his other and the child.
    He also thinks of the time those patriarchal laws were made by a so called prophet (who would be viewed like a pedophile in the modern world), and that those silly laws were made by men, to advantage men, and that it is purely made to serve the selfish ego of men, and to serve them and take possessions from their so called wives…
    He also thinks that the term wife is not appropriate and should not be used that loosely in English, as it is a marriage contract that the muslim world considers, it is not a devine marriage as in the Chrestian world.
    It has in fact nothing to do with the love marriage of the Christian world, and that a different world should be used. Which i think is a very good point.
    He also said about my friend that anybody can convert to Islam if they want, so not to judge someone by their origin and religion.
    He said that he has no muslim faith, as the same happened to him, as what happens to many Chrestians, when the turn against their own faith. He also feels he has been brainwashed since his childhood, and rejects the whole sharade wholeheartly..
    he is like me, more spiritual than religious. He quesitions everything and is a total free thinker!
    I just adore this man!! happy
    but i adore my own boyfriend too of course !
    anyway, i think i will remain good friends with him if i can, and i have not bothered checking his residency status, as i can feel the love that we share together for each other, and i am so happy to be in his company.
    Thank you ladies for all that you do online.

  • ana

    April 21, 2014

    jamal magsi,

    Would you be more specific? What about the comments make you Vomit in paper bag ?

    Do you know anyone personally from Pakistan? Before reading the post, had you heard of a problem that exists with men from Pakistan who “use” women from the U.S or U.K to better their financial/material position in life? Is the situation new to you? Do you want to puke because the comments make you sympathetic to the women who encountered situations with Pakistani men that have hurt them or caused them pain? Are you Pakistani? Perhaps you could elaborate more, so we’d understand better what about the comments sickened you.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • jamal magsi

    April 21, 2014

    Wow if being from Pakistan makes you evil then standing in a garage makes you a car.
    your original post is fine but reading the comments make me puke.

  • maryam

    April 16, 2014

    Hi Jenny,

    Saad will be relieved to hear a positive story about a Pakistani man I’m sure!

    His happiness won’t last long if you tell him how your husband treated his first Pakistani wife.

    Didn’t he marry a Pakistani cousin with no intention of ever living with her or bringing her to his home in America? He wanted nothing to do with her (apart from having kids) from what you said?

    You have said your husband has high expectations for your Jewish daughter, but he expects nothing to come of his Pakistani daughter except an arranged marriage?

    I get that with you he is amazing. To his first Pakistani wife he is probably something far from amazing.

    I guess that is life, we are different things to different people.

  • ana

    April 15, 2014

    Jenny,

    How do you know your husband isn’t one of those very cleaver, smooth talking, suave, charming, sweet talking conniving, convincing, scheming, lying, deceitful, Pakistani con men that so many here on this blog speak of? Your husband is living a lavish, posh, extravagant life with you – the type of life Pakistani men dream of. Your husband’s dream has come true. So what, all the bank accounts, real estate etc are in your name and he has nothing but lunch money and a clean pair of underwear every day, so you say. He is still living the life that he wants, driving the Bentley and showboating. It doesn’t stop him from living large. No one ever knows what is truly in a persons heart wholeheartedly except Allah.

    What I hear those Pakistani men are some good actors. Some of them probably could win an Academy Award…

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Jenny

    April 15, 2014

    @ Saad,

    I will be the lone voice here and say I am so blissfully happy with my Pakistani husband!!! We have been married a very long time and have four babies (two sets of twins) and trying for more. I’m Jewish and my husband defines himself (like you) as a Muslim (which is a very controversial statement here), but we make it work and religion has NEVER been an issue.

    With my business, I have darn near 600 Pakistani employees, and yes, there is some merit to what is said here; but like you said, the women can marry caucasian men.

    Hubby has always been honest with me, never caught him in any lies, and treats me like the pretty, pretty princess (that’s what my oldest son says) and as I sit here, I can’t think of anything he could do to be a better husband to me, except put the toilet seat down! lol

  • ana

    April 15, 2014

    Saad,

    Your last post was way good! We will entertain discussion on it, as it is on topic.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    April 15, 2014

    Ana
    i am done here thanks.

  • saad

    April 15, 2014

    Alijah
    We are all human beings (for arguments sake let me include pakistanis in it too), so we have both good and bad sides.
    your paki guy might be in love with you and you may be feeling good about him, so for now emotions are running high.
    but the moment you are exposed to his dark side (which every one has)and what ever you are learning from this blog about paki men being the scum of the earth, you will despise him thinking
    “i knew it, this is what gail and others warned me about, and now THE PAKI is showing his true colors”.
    judging from your posts below in which you said “i will tape his conversations with his friends, and then ask people to translate it from me (bringing his laundry to public)” i am feeling for that poor guy, because if he find out he will have an heart attack. so my advice is:
    Find a nice caucasian guy for God’s sake.(personally i don’t get why would any women prefer a paki over an american etc., if not for a fetish of cross-cultural thing). Being realistic:
    1.caucasian will be way more good looking than your pakistani guy.
    2.he will understand you better.
    3.he will give you the respect you deserve.
    4.you will not have to be F.B.I, monitoring his every day activities and recording his personal conversations with friends.
    5.you will not have to deal with cultural and religious issues.
    6.you will not have to deal with all the in laws and The Drama.

    and god willing we will not be having another paki hater after 2 or 3 years.

  • ana

    April 15, 2014

    As Salaamu Alaikum & Peace to All,

    @Saad & Everyone,

    I think we’ve devoted enough time to discussing with Saad his beliefs or lack of belief in God and religion, his views on Pakistan and other countries, science, technology, education etc. It’s time for us to get back to discussions about polygamy and Pakistani men or simply polygamy.

    Saad, thank you for sharing your views with us by commenting. If you should find yourself in a polygamous situation, feel free to join us in discussions here. happy

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    April 15, 2014

    Marie.
    * i dont need a god to tell me that cheating, murdering,raping and lying is wrong. people who don’t believe in God believe in these basic moral values. so by not honoring these values does not mean you are turning away from god but from your humanity.

    *why is that a “mental impossibility”? guess you have not met any Atheist in your life.

    *As far as Islam is concerned i am ‘living on the edge’. i was born in a muslim family, i don’t know if i am muslim or not, i yet have to think on it or may be i don’t care.

    *Why i am here and what i am trying to achieve? do i owe you an explanation? never mind i will give you one. you said i don’t appear to be a muslim and i am not here for a marriage right but i am a Pakistani, and you are discussing about Pakistanis so this is what i am doing ‘talking to people’.

    *because they did not worked hard,lagged in the scientific progress and grew weak both socially and morally. and their is survival of the fittest, so they ended up sc***d.

    *by Arabs i was not referring to you rather i was referring to the people you revere and they are Companions of your Prophet who turned this world upside down. pillaged and plundered Persia. (i am Sorry if i am disparaging your religious sensitivities, this is not my intention, sorry again).

  • marie

    April 15, 2014

    @saad all the things you mentioned about why pakistan is in such a bad state. Cheating, consuming interest, lying ect. Is turning your back on Allah as theses are the things Allah tell you not to do. Islam us a way of life.

    You sound as if you have some kind of intelligence, but yet you say things like ‘imaginary diety’ I’m taking a guess that you don’t believe in God/creator. Which is a mental impossibility.

    Your clearly not here for polygamy, you don’t appear to be Muslim and you haven’t come for the sister/brother hood. Why are you here Saad. What are you trying to achieve.

    By the way I wasn’t taking about the rise and fall of one nation it was many. They was very advanced. Do you have a good reason for why an entire people who were once ‘top dogs’ became oppressed slaves. Did they all of sudden become stupid. I think not.

    Also I think you implied that was Arab. No far from it their are no Arabs in my background, as far as I know

  • Alijiah

    April 15, 2014

    Hi Gail, spirited, and everybody on the blog!

    you ladies and gents are all an amazing lot!

    Thank you so much to Gail for being like a mother to me at this stage happy

    and to saad, who says things that i can relate to, although he is very frank, i respect that.

    Thank you Ana of course! you are amazing and this blog is your home. I read a little about your story, and to be honest I have so much respect for you dear lady <3

    I looked around at other blogs on this topic of white girls dating Paki muslim boys. things look rather bleek all right.. i never would have thought that this could be such a disaster thing to be honest..

    Oh, spirited, we don't really date to be honest. I would not do that yet, as i do have a partner back in my own country too… but as i said our relationship is difficult because of the distance and other things…

    the thing is that i will not commit to date him or anything as long as we work together anyway.. this would be a super serious thing.

    for now we enjoy flirting, although he wants to get more serious but i am still not sure. the thing is that white male do the same, you know: use women for money, status or sex… so no game changer really.. and i had a few of those already a few years ago.

    in contrast to the white men, this Pakistani man is very refreshing, sincere, honest and pure. I do see him trying to pull away from me, even when he thinks i am not watching him with the corner of my eyes, or through my hair. he holds it together, trying not to come to me, and stare at me all the time. i do trust his feelings for now, but as Gail said, what about later?

    so i think that as we have no choice but wait a few years, when one of us finishes work there, it is going to be a good opportunity for me to suss things with him and his family.

    the ultimate test and a sure winner is will him and his family accept me not converting or him giving up Islam for me… and there will be no getting close and comfy before those questions are answered.

    I thought that because he grew up in Europe his ideas would not be as conservative towards Islam, but i do know his parents are devoted to Islam, especially his mother. I did speak to her, and she did make it VERY clear that only if i convert would she consider me, and money and status mean nothing to her.

    so, it looks like i have to negociate with her for her terms, before considering anything serious with him.

    i do wish to reassure everybody on the blog, we are not dating (he just finds excuses to be around me in work all the time and to talk to me for a few months, and he also made his feelings for me very clear directly and undirectly.
    so like any other muslim woman, i will have to play it cool and think ! happy

  • saad

    April 15, 2014

    Gail that’s true. majority of pakis want to leave pakistan. as a whole we are one of the most corrupt societies and you can judge it from our ruling elite, last month 60 children died of hunger in a village of Sindh (one of Pakistan’s province). On the other hand our ruling elite has such a lavish life style and are undoubtedly the most corrupt leaders in the world. same goes to our common people, they are corrupt too. more over all the rich people are ashamed of their pakistani background, but they can’t do any thing about it(can’t change their DNA).

    i don’t know why i get angry when i see every body lashing out on my Pakistan(to be honest we deserve it), maybe because i love my country. i get frustrated when i see so many problems in my society. every body is complaining. people who live in pakistan are complaining, overseas pakistani’s are complaining. but nobody is there to take stand for a change.

    There are people like spirited who say they do like the country and i am left wondering, what actually they like about Pakistan? its climate? its geography? deserts? mountains? because Pakistan is just a piece of land and does not mean anything if exclude pakis. when they hate its people what actually they like? or maybe they do like to joke often?

    only way forward for my nation is education. And education will set them free.

    In short it is not easy being a Pakistani.

  • Gail

    April 15, 2014

    Saad,
    One last thing I would like to point out.I have very prestigious family members in Pakistan.
    One of my brother inlaws is top Cardiologist at CMH Hospital and according to Pakistani standards he is very very wealthy.Has a beautiful home in DHA Islamabad and owns alot of stuff and is a really wonderful person to know.He has 4 kids and all are going to study to be doctors.Now here is the kicker.I have flat told him to educate his children in USA for Specialty fields is very expensive and I doubt he can afford so much and at the very least it will be a huge strain on him so why do this?is answer to me was that there is no life surety in Pakistan anymore and knowing his son might end up working a business in USA is better to him than remaining in Pakistan.
    My sister inlaw husbands father was an advisor to one of Pakistan President.They are beyond RICH compared to Pakistani standards.My sister inlaw lives in a very huge Mansion very very beautiful and has everything she could wish for.Guess what still they r dying to come sit with me in USA.
    My husband has beautiful homes in Pakistan and alot of commercial real estate.So much so we can retire today in Pakistan and we would never have to work the rest of our lives or are children would never have to work just collect rents from our properties but instead we live in a 2 bedroom old trailer and drive ice cream trucks and older vehicles(my newest car just a 2006)simply because we know we have Paki to fall back on in future if we need but hubby wants keep working and saving and make it here in USA.Anyway I just wanted to point out to u if Rich Pakis want out then u know the poor ones are also dying to get out.To me it is not good.They should stay and fight and change the country.

  • saad

    April 15, 2014

    Gail the way you speak reflects your failed relationship with your husband. anyways if you have not heard it from anyone than open your ears and i am saying it loud and clear. AFTER COMPLETING MY M.S I WILL RETURN BACK TO PAKISTAN. my close relatives have been living in Oslo from past 25 years. i just wish you had married somebody from your own race so you will not be having it out on my people. Anyways you are doing a great job in educating your sisters. Good Luck

  • Gail

    April 15, 2014

    Saad,
    I also wanted u to know that I am just not speaking to be speaking on the blog about Pakistani men using foreign woman.I actually have lived in Pakistani in Rawalpindi off and on for the last 11 yrs.I have lived in Rawalpindi for years at a time so I have a very good understanding of the culture and the people and their mentality.Every single family that I have witnessed without exception dreams and wishes to send their sons outside Pakistan to make more money.You know it and I know it.The Sons are more than happy to leave Pakistan so they don’t have their family ruling on them.These r just facts I have seen.I have told my husband in a very abusive verbal way in the past that until your men stop wanting to leave the country and stay home and fight to make Pakistan a better country then it is never going to come up.
    Saad even with you what was the first thing out of your mouth? You desire to leave your country to go study abroad.My point is this is the clear mentality of every Pakistani even if u do not see it yourself.Please do not use the excuse that foreign education is better because I don’t buy it.You want a better education so it gives u a better chance of getting out of Pakistan.I have yet to here one person say Hey I am going to study abroad and go back to Pakistan and make it better for the next generation.Nope have yet to hear that one.Instead what I hear is Pakistan is to corrupt and it will take 100 more yrs before it will come up or Pakistan will never come up it is lost cause.Either way problem is same everyone wants out of Pakistan to earn more money.

  • Gail

    April 15, 2014

    Alijah,
    Girl I read your post about your views of love and marriage and I really think u r in for a very hard thump on the head later on if u don’t get your head out of the clouds and come back to reality.You version of love is the female version of love and that love last about year with a couple.I am curious do u think love stays on a high your entire life?Trust me if it did we would not have so many cheaters esp.. men who cheat.Your version of love sounds wonderful but it is sooo not reality.Keep in your mind that their area lot of factors that make a person get up out of bed and feel different everyday.
    Let me ask u this if your dear lovely sweet boyfriend now later on down the line came to you after marriage and said this whole love thing has been great I want to marry and take another wife then what?Will u believe he still loves you more than the moon and the stars or will u want to go for his juggler vein?
    I am bringing this to your attention because I used to think the same way u are thinking now and I see all the signs of u getting into a huge mess.You thinking is so western and if u keep with this mentality I a pretty certain down the line one day u are going to wake see reality for what it is and say to yourself dang I sure was stupid.
    When u r picking a mate you obviously need to be physically attracted to that person.You need to also look and see if u have the same background and morals,ethics,etc… What about financial matters does he believe everything goes in his name or will he be ok with 50/50.As spirited mentioned with children will u be ok to raise your children muslim if he acts like a horses A$$ and demands it? In my case my husband did not demand it but I flat told him before marriage I am never accepting Islam.I made it very clear before we married but he still tried to badger me for awhile until i flat one day told him stop with the little facts about Islam being better than Christianity or Judaism it does nothing for me your beating a dead horse on that topic.He just laughed and said he likes to joke with me after that we joke around.So I am lucky in that respect but most woman are not.
    My husband was 30 when we married and I was 31 when we married.I would consider that to the perfect age range if u really want to make it work long term.When u r under 30 u just are not mature enough to see the bumby road ahead and u do not have enough life experience yet to dodge the potholes in the road.What I mean by that is younger men esp… after marriage get a big head and try to rule on their wives because of their immaturity I feel.Now u compound that with the couples being a different culture and religions it makes for a very rocky and bumby road.I am not saying mix marriages are horrible and should not be done but u must have the right mentality if u r going to actually consider to do it.For the sake of your future children think very carefully and go visit his family ask them straight to their face if they are going to accept you.Tell them u do not accept polygamy ever.Tell them straight your deal breakers when the time comes.Above all if he is not a citizen of the country u r in u better figure out where he plans on living long term.Bottom line keep the upper hand.If u give him everything then don’t cry later if he does wrong with you.Never forget to play smart for the sake of your future children is my advice.

  • saad

    April 15, 2014

    marie! rise and fall does not depend upon believing in an imaginary deity.

    This world is a place where harnessing potentials produce results. These potentials can be harnessed mostly by having skill and expertise in scientific disciplines. It is this skill through which man can access the treasures which are concealed in the heavens and the earth. History bears witness that the life and death of man is mostly dependent on the competence he has in these disciplines, what to speak of rise and fall of nations. From the discovery of fire to the invention of the wheel to the astounding advancement and developments of the modern era this fact can be read in every page of history.

    secondly moral fabric of a society is THE indicator, if the society is progressing or not. for example JUSTICE is a moral value.
    Muslims have shown an utter indifference to their moral instruction. Reasons for the downfall of muslims are lying, dishonesty, embezzlement, theft, fraud, adulteration, devouring of interest, deceit in weighing, false accusations, breaking promises, involvement in occult disciplines, labeling one another with disbelief and defiance. not because they turned their backs on “ALLAH”.

    All the great empires like Persian, Roman and greeks none of them believed in “ALLAH”. they were great because moral fabric of their society was strong, because of which their was justice peace and tranquility. and number two because they were scientifically advance and ahead of their age. Persia was a great empire before your ARAB Brutes came and destroyed it. that was the gift of your ISLAM to the world.

    i wish someday Pakistanis realize that this religion is not doing any good to them, stop thinking about bringing Khilafah and so called “Muslim UMMAH” and start focusing on education and work for democracy, then maybe their situation will change.

  • ana

    April 15, 2014

    marie, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    Well said! happy I’m glad you chimed in on the off topic, and offered up some historical facts to support why the conditions of our brothers and sisters in faith are as they are today. thumbs up.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • marie

    April 15, 2014

    Saad I too used to try and get the message across to anyone and everyone about the horrors that are happening in. Other countries, I’d try to open people’s eyes to the hidden agendas (you touched on the natural resources the middle east has) I then realised that instead of talking to brick walls and arguing till I’m blue in face, the best thing I can do is make dua fro them that one day they will worship Allah they way the should and then Allah will do as He said and change their condition. I too hurt and feel pain when I see and hear of the horrible things that are happening to men, woman and children. But here the thing. The non believers (UK and US governments) will get their punishments in the hereafter if they do not repent. Leave it to Allah and make dua for your people. Knowledge is nothing without Action. Iblis (satan) has knowledge but still he is going to hell fire because he didn’t bow down when ordered, sorry to say but no matter how much science people learn it will not benefit them unless they obey.

  • marie

    April 15, 2014

    Asalaamu Alaykum All,

    I’d like to chime in here, it may seem off topic but I do have a point. I’d agree with Ana that if a nation (muslims) turn their backs on Allah they will suffer the conciqences. All you have to do is look at history.

    Saad I’d like to ask you a question, or a few, history tells us that at some point non white people ‘ruled the world’ the mayans,egyptions and Chinese ect were the riches and most intelligent people on earth, they built pyramids,invented the alphabet numbers, calenders lived and built home in the mountain were it would seem no one could live and much much more. They did all this with the help and permission of Allah. No doubt they had science, intelligence and money. So how come this nation (non white) became the poorest, down trodden people we know of today. How did a people who once had power, riches, intelligence,science and all the rest become slaves and victims of their own people. I’ll tell you how, because they decided to worship fails idols (this is obvious from the statues and documentation that we have found today) they turned their backs on Allah. The One who gave them all they had. I can’t render the exact ayat but Allah says if you do not worship Him and Him alone He will cause the ones who no nothing of him to rule over the ones who do know of Him and still worship something besides Him. Still to this day Caucasians are “running things” and still to this day non but a few have turn back to Allah, asked for his forgiveness. Arabs, Africans, Pakistanis, Palestinian will remain in this situation until they do what Allah has told them to. Allah will not change the condition of a people till they change what’s in their hearts. Clear their heart are right where they was all them years ago

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    Allie,

    That was an AWESOME post you wrote to Saad. About the tree and the concrete, I never heard anything like it before, WOW. Keep writing. I’m listening and learning from you. Alhumdulliah!!!

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    @Saad,

    I think you don’t understand me. I am one to always say Muslims are all one brotherhood. I am Muslim. Allah says don’t divide ourselves into sects. I don’t identify with any sect, as there shouldn’t be any. All Muslims are my brothers and sisters.

    The only reason I say Muslims deserve what they get is because Allah is a Just God and he rewards people and punishes people according to what they earn. He holds us accountable. Allah says he will not change the condition of a person until he or she changes what is in his or her heart. Very few people follow or believe in what Allah says. You don’t believe in Islam any longer, so there is no need for me to continue to talk with you about it.

    Saad, you are absolutely correct. I deserve everything that has ever happened to me, everything that is happening to me currently, and everything that will happen to me in the future. I never said I didn’t. The more my faith increases and the more I try to worship and obey Allah, the better my life gets. I have trials and tests, but they only make me stronger and a better Muslim.

    You are very young and you have a lot of potential. You just have to get your head on straight. Allah swt created science, technology and everything in the heavens, earth and between. He teaches. Keep thinking you don’t need Allah and you will find yourself with nothing of substance. Although you are young, this world is short, so don’t think you’ve got plenty of time.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Alijah

    April 14, 2014

    Hi saad, thank you for including me in the conversation!
    I do agree with ana, the Osamah bin Ladin being killed in Pakistan was just a big publicity stunt if you ask me…
    and in fact I do true my guy a lot more that you may think, but at the same time, i want to know more about his culture, country, etc… so that if we are really gonna want to live together, i know what may be coming my way…
    I do adore the man in fact and it sure feel like this is the first man that actually truly loves me among all the men that i have enjoyed in my life if I am to be sincere here.
    My friend is kind, helpful to me and my work in many ways, loving, caring, we have a special connection that goes beyond the material world of apparences, religions, cultures, expectations, etc.
    .. i would say that it is a sacred bound that knows no limit, race, culture, religion, and this is why it makes it a beautiful journey for me and for him also. A journey of love, discovery, kindness with both of us being open minded about each others’ culture and beliefs.
    Since we have grown close he has opened up so much to me, but also to others in work, he has matured, grown up, learnt to trust us, and me in particular, and i have come to trust him.

    @maryam, “my” guy does not have siblings as far as i know… but good point! thank you!

    @spirited: thank you so much for the reminder about the children… i see your point, in fact i would never agree to any daughter of mine being told that she is any lesser worth than any man, and that she had to accept sharing her husband with others.
    I view marriage as a sacred ceremony, where the couple truly becomes one, and any transgression from that is lust, depravation and vilated that holy temple that the human body is.
    I will also never accept my son to be told that he can use women as sexual pleasure objects.
    However those tpye of views are present in most religions, which is the reason that i would never consider myself to be a religious person, but a spiritual one.
    In short: the children will follow their own path in life and will not be victims of any kind of endocrtination/ brain washing from a very young age.
    They need to be old and mature enough to understand religion and spirituality, something that can not be achieved before a certain age and according to their own life choices and path.
    Blessings to all. <3

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    Allie this blog is open for everybody and everyone is welcomed here, this is what ana told me.
    anyways there is no point prolonging this discussion, i got your point and i am ending it here.

  • Allie

    April 14, 2014

    Saad,

    It looks like you’re taking your anger out on the wrong people. Reality check time: this blog is about polygyny. Fact: Many of the women here for support have married Pakistani men. Fact: Many of those women later found out what they thought was marriage based on mutual love and respect was really a CALCULATED and UNDERHANDED trick to gain what they want (US/UK citizenship, more money, etc). I think you need to really understand nobody here is saying 100% of all Pakistani men are doing this. Maybe all the good Pakistani men are staying in Pakistan and only the garbage is being exported? Or maybe it’s that the good ones that come aren’t hurting anyone else so there’s no need to write about it but the bad seeds …well..sh*t stinks, no use pretending otherwise. And these bad seeds tend to insert themselves and wreck other peoples lives. Here’s what I mean…a seed that grows into a tree is fine when it’s in soil but if it’s in the middle of a sidewalk, what is it doing? It’s breaking up the concrete and makes it really difficult to move around. At a certain point it has to be addressed. That’s what this post is about. Also please keep in mind that many of the women here were DUPED into polygyny without their knowledge. Take up your ire against YOUR COUNTRYMEN WHO ARE CAUSING THIS PROBLEM, not their victims.

    FYI, countries in asia and the middle east are not the only ones that have had forceful intervention on the part of the American government. My country has actually had the government toppled and replaced multiple times directly due to actions sanctioned by the United States government and even had an American installed as president at one point. However, THIS IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE BLOG. I’m pretty sure Ana is not secretly Obama when she’s not posting. What do you hope to gain from venting here? Be the change you want to see. Get involved in organizations pushing for better schooling, etc. Hashing it out on a support blog for women in polygyny is pretty cheap behaviour.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    ana i never said that. USA is a great place. thats why every body wants to live there.
    moreover your Quran also says that Muslim is a brother of muslim.
    innocent muslims are being killed every where and you think they deserve this then you are a horrible person.
    you and your friends here deserved what ever bad happened to them.
    you have been deceived by a paki? well you deserved that.
    you had hard time in relationship? you deserved that.
    CHEERS for whatever bad you face in future.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    Gail! okay i understand that.
    what about your friends who have married within your own race? are they all happy? is their life smooth and easy? are there evil and selfish whites who use people(women) for their benefit. too many questions lol

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    Saad,

    You and the masses of Muslims are in the predicament that you are in because you don’t have Islam (Allah swt and His word – Quran). They have relied on other books (Hadiths) such as the one you just quoted from. People in Pakistan apparently like many other Muslims are steep in culture and Hadiths. Jenny may be correct; it probably is a rare find for anyone over there in your country to own a Quran let alone ever have read anything from the Quran other than Al Fatihad. No wonder Allah isn’t coming through for them.

    I don’t side with the Americans or anyone, but right. Islam – Allah is right. Americans are doing exactly what Allah has decreed for them to do and Pakistani’s are doing exactly what Allah has decreed for them to do. Allah is a Just God and everyone is getting their due.

    The United States do not prevent me from worshiping Allah. There is freedom of religion here. I can eat the halal foods I’m supposed to eat; dress modestly the way I’m supposed to; fast; offer my salats; work outside the home, if I want to; own a business if Allah decrees it for me; drive a vehicle unlike in some countries that forbid women to drive; and report a crime that happens to me without me being charged with the crime the way some women in Pakistan and other countries are charged when they report they’ve been rape. The United States don’t prevent me from worship Allah and it doesn’t force me to worship Allah. There is no Islamic Police here; although at times it feels we get one every now and again on the blog hee hee

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    spirited! have you ever seen a good paki in your life other than your BLESSED Father? do you Nouman Ali Khan? he is a Paki too. more over i know how bad pakistanis are. and i know it more than you because i am a paki myself. i know we have a corrupt society. but it does not mean i bash my own people. because i know their is goodness in them too. percentage wise they give highest charity in the world,even though they are poor. i know it is not personal insult to me. but insulting my nation my people is enough for me. i love my country and my people and hate those Pakis to guts who are giving my country a bad name by cheating and deceiving your people…. i feel bad about pakis thay they mourn for muslims for iraqis for afghanis for chechans for Palestinians etc. and this is what other muslims think about them. seeing all this i don’t want to be a part of this ummah.rest of pakis should forget about their religion too and start getting quality education.

  • Gail

    April 14, 2014

    Man u guys really having it out with Saad.
    Saad I do agree with u that Pakistani education really really sucks.So no arguing there on that topic!
    You really young and u have not been out in the world yet so try to understand that alot of older and been around alot longer.We are not trying to beat up on Paki people just trying to share information to help another woman that may find herself questioning to marry a Pakistani man.
    Also I have been married to my husband 11 yrs.Yes it has been a hard marriage but I really could not imagine my life without him.I am white and he is Pakistani.I love mix marriages as long as there is no lying,cheating,etc…

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    ana! i dont see how do i need Allah to overcome obstacles? i just need determination and hard work.
    to be honest our paki generation has been brought up with lies as far as our history and religion is concerned. Islam teaches us the concept of Ummah where people atleast feel the pain of their brethren. Prophet Muhammad said: “The Muslims, in their mutual love, mercy and compassion, are like one body: if one organ complained, the rest of the body develops a fever.” [Bukhari & Muslim],lies,lies and lies every where. you are supposed to be a muslim and you are happy when i tell you USA invaded IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN and killed thousands of innocent people. ofcourse you are american etc first. but i have friends from UK, even though they are Atheists they hate American policies against Muslim world. so for me they are better than many muslims like you.
    Pakistan is a third worlf country because of a reason. Paki nation is illiterate. they want to cling to their religious superstitions and dont want to learn science. this cult has brought nothing but extremism and destruction. Just like Iran/persia was a great civilization before pagan arabs destroyed and plundered it in the name of religion.

  • maryam

    April 14, 2014

    That was an incredible summary Spirited!

  • maryam

    April 14, 2014

    Oh Spirited! The sleeves had me rolling on the floor nearly…I thought at first you meant they were inside the garment not the actual shop like an accessory!

    Have to dash off…peace to you all

  • maryam

    April 14, 2014

    Saad,

    I do get why you feel frustrated. However…

    The difference is that you talking about the behaviour of western “governments”.

    The people on this blog are talking about “individual Pakistani men” not the Pakistani government. This thread developed because SO MANY women had bad experiences with Pakistani men lying, cheating etc. Therefore the theme developed.

    You can’t compare US governnent foreign policy to the behaviour of individuals. Completely different realms.

  • Spirited

    April 14, 2014

    Salaam to everyone,

    @Saad, the main point is that the current generation of Pakistani men are pathetic. In their drive to follow westerners, they’re giving up what it means to be Muslim. Wait, actually it’s not just the men, it’s the women too. I was just in Pakistan for a visit 2 weeks ago, and you know what I saw? I’m sure you know the kinds of womens’ clothes every shop parades around these days. No sleeves? Are you kidding me? How is that Islamic? oh of course, “the sleeves are there” “where?” “inside! You will have to get them sown yourself if you want sleeves. It’s the fashion right now.” And when I looked at the “sleeves,” they might as well not have been there, because they are all see-through. And the duppatas, what’s the point of them? To cover the hair and chest, for modesty as per Allah’s rules. What do I see? Women wearing them around the freaking neck, exposing hair, and sometimes even cleavage. Why? Because they’re following the west, to attract men. Why do the women have to do this? Because the men only want the kind of … shall we say…. “indecent,” “slutty” women that this generation of men lust after. So because of the current generation of idiots, even the women are being goaded into sinning. Nice job I must say.

    What do you expect us to think about the men from there? All I’ve seen is a bunch of horny liars, unable to control themselves and doing anything they can to get what they want. You do remember dating is NOT Islamic? Why are Muslim people in the Islamic nation of Pakistan dating? Why do the Pakistanis who come to the west, date (like I’m reading with Alijah’s “boyfriend”)? Did they leave Islam and God at the airport? Please do explain if you can, because I sure don’t get it.

    My parents wanted to find a husband from Pakistan because they thought that a person from Pakistan would be a good, pious, Allah-fearing Muslim – like the people from their generation, but he seems to have left Allah in Pakistan and come to follow Satan. Yet, I’m an American and I easily COULD have had a boyfriend or pre-marital sex or any number of usual western sins, but I didn’t because I remember Allah. Saad, I don’t believe that cultural differences are the problem. My parents are pakistani, and have kept a “pakistani culture” based home and made sure to teach us punjabi & urdu, we eat the same food as in Pakistan, we wear the same clothes, we celebrate the same Eid, my dad even loves his Basant (kite-flying day they have over there). So, the problem isn’t culture, it’s that the men who are causing problems aren’t following Islam and most of them just happen to be Pakistani, its just that simple.

    To me, it really looks like Muslims here try harder to stay with Allah than the Muslims from the muslim country of Pakistan laughing. In Pakistan, the government (made up of Muslims) can’t even stop stealing from its own people to advance the nation! Rampant poverty even though they have all the money the government gets (goes right into their pockets), if you want anything done, you HAVE to BRIBE the people working at offices – anyone who tries to do things the correct way is ignored or retaliated against, etc. Its really just so sad. Is this following Islam? No. Then why do you complain that bad things are happening? The country is doing this to itself. Remember the old days, when Islam had a HUGE empire? Allah was with the Muslims then, because the Muslims were following Allah. Its not the case anymore – Muslims are following their genitals and $$$, so they’re suffering because of their own lack of faith and greed. Yes, my father is a Pakistani, and so is my mother. They both say their generation was much better because they say it looks like their generation actually kept Allah in their hearts and minds, not like the men today.

    Saad, you will get the “terrorist” label no matter where you’re from. I told you I’m American, but people still call me a terrorist. I’ve been spit at also and told to “go back to my country” laughing. Islamaphobes will be the same everywhere. It sure isn’t my fault, and I know its not your fault either, but it’s the generation’s fault. It’s the fault of the Muslims who do the wrong things. Just like the bad image of Pakistani men as cheaters & liars is because of the Pakistani men who do the things we talk about here. So because of that, its only fair that women should be warned about the trap they’re falling into. Its no offense to you personally, but that’s just the way it is.

    @Alijah, please also keep in mind that a muslim’s children are considered to be Muslim, and should be raised that way. I don’t know how Islamic this guy you’re interested in is, considering he’s dating and all, but he may (and ideally, he should) want children to be raised Muslim.

    Ok well, I have to head out. Again, I’m not trying to bash Pakistani men, or Pakistan — my family is Pakistani and I do like the country, but these are things I’ve seen & heard & dealt with.

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    saad,

    Perhaps the United States did train Osama Bin Ladin, and did lie about Weapons of Mass destruction, and are killing people with drones and you don’t have the science and technology you need – I’ll give you all of that. If, however you don’t believe in Allah/God, how do you purport to overcome all your obstacles and move yourselves forward???

    Oh, that’s right, Doh Americans are supposed to do it for you.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    Alijah you seem to be trusting everyone except your guy. interesting situation for me.
    maryam! i am not blaming any one i am just trying to tell that we have agreed pakis are bad so let us talk about you people. like ana has the audacity to talk about usama bin ladin and didn’t mention who trained him? any way USA lied about WMDs and attacked IRAQ.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    maryam not exactly i am 21 years old and don’t have plans to marry until 28. anyways it was great hearing how ana feels about her Moslem Ummah.
    i do agree Pakis are suffering because they are week. and they are week because they have not invested in science and technology and did nothing rather worshiping an imaginary allah and mourning over so called “muslim ummah” that includes people like ana who are happy that their a**e* are being kicked by non muslims.
    they will never come out of this humiliation until they start making progress in Science and kick religion out of the realm of state and work for democracy.
    moreover their was no suicide bombing in my country until USA along with rest of crusaders invaded Afghanistan.

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    maryam, As Salaamu Alaikum

    It seems as though anytime anyone speaks about Muslims blowing themselves and others up, someone comes along and speak of the drones i dont know My thing is why aren’t Muslims falling under the protection of Allah from these drones and things? It should be the question that Muslims need to address and find the answer to.

    I hear you about the coffee. I had mine, now, Insha Allah, I’m going to go do a yoga workout.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • maryam

    April 14, 2014

    Saad, I think you’ll find religion has very much contributed to the rise and fall of nations throughout history.

    You seem to be blaming everyone for whatever situation you find yourself in.

    You mentioned you visited 4 sites before coming here? What were you looking for? It wasn’t someone to marry was it?

  • maryam

    April 14, 2014

    Hector Magrecta!!!

    How did we go from Saad complaining about his countrymen to missiles and drone warefare with statistics thrown in ??!!

    I’m scratching my head.

    I need a coffee…

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    They said Osama Bin Laden was not in Pakistan. It turned out to be a big fat lie. It kind of coincides with the lies many of the Pakistani men are telling American and European women whom theywant to make their wives.

    By the way, I did like the movie, “Zero Dark Thirty”. I purchased the DVD.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    saad,

    I was thinking you are Muslim. You must not be Muslim or you are a Muslim who believes in other books, and do not believe what is in the Holy Quran (the word of Allah). You say don’t bring religion into it. Well, I’m a Muslim who believes in Allah and what He says in the Holy Quran; therefore, I have no option, but to bring Islam (my way of life) into it.

    Even if all you say is true about the drones and the civilian casualties, it wouldn’t be happening, if the Muslims were obeying Allah. Allah tells the Believers that they would be victorious and triumpant over the unbelievers, if they worshiped and served Him, as He instructs them to. He says He protects the Believers. He gives stories in Quran as to what He has done and how Muslims have prevailed and tells us what He will do and how we can prevail. Thing is, Muslims aren’t listening. They are lost. They cannot see.

    I suppose there aren’t many Believers in Pakistan and all the other impoverished countries in which Americans are invading and annihilating them Shooting JeepKindly tell me why the Americans and other unbelievers are going into these Muslim countries and tearing them up? Again, don’t blame others for the condition of your country. It seems to me that many of the people in your country are jacked up, and aren’t falling under Allah’s protection.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • maryam

    April 14, 2014

    That is so very true Ana. As Muslims we can complain about being stereotyped, disliked, discriminated against as much as we like, but we muslims, have brought much of that on ourselves!

    Saad, just because a bad reputation preceeds you doesn’t mean all hope is lost. Just avoid the kinds of behaviour we’ve talked about. Show that Pakistani men can be great, respectful, honourable. Be the opposite of the men Hahaha talked about.

    Alijah you sound like your have your eyes open. Keep talking, keep asking questions, if there are any contradictions that could be a red flag. The truth is always the same, lies change. Are any of his siblings married?

    Marie, yes it’s funny how you can grow up in the same place and not experience the same things.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    we are in mess not because we turned our backs on your “ALLAH”. but because we did not excel in science and technology. religion is every ones personal matter and it does not decides the rise and fall of nations.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    Marie! ofcourse you didn’t catch my drift. i was being sarcastic. i am amazed how they are stereotyping my people.
    Ana! not all of my pakistani brothers are interested in americans or europeans. SO STOP STEREOTYPING MY PEOPLE. again i am saying this, there are as many good Pakistanis as there are americans or europeans. but problem with you people is the roguish acts you do your media covers it up. when a paki or a muslim does something wrong, your media will discuss it all day long. my assertion is that there are as many rapists opportunists caucasian/whites as there are pakis.
    you people talk like you are at a higher pedestal, like you are torch bearers as far as moral values are concerned, No you are not.
    what is mighty America and NATO doing in Afghanistan? hundreds of thousands of innocent Afghans have died in war against terror. and more than million have been displaced from their homes.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
    More than 60,000 civilians have died at the hand of USA supported TTP in Pakistan. Americans have killed even our babies in drone attacks (collateral damage for you).
    http://www.policymic.com/articles/24164/a-list-of-children-killed-by-drone-strikes-in-pakistan-and-yemen
    and these 60000 are not just numbers, they were 60000 families who paid the price for 9/11 in which (3000 people died). how many more have to die to satisfy collective american conscience? USA is supporting insurgents Like BLA against Pakistan.
    USA accused iraq for having WMDs and attacked it. where are WMDs? whole world knows they attacked to plunder Iraqs natural resources. You destroy countries, murder civilians in the name of keeping Peace. i am asking who are you? Zeus?
    if Paki nation is guilty of the actions of some individuals then you people are guilty of war crimes,mass murder, plundering our natural resources.
    and dont bother bringing Islam into discussion. your Arab muslims are the most racist people in the world after Indian Hindus and Caucasian/whites.

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    Saad,

    Islam is not a failure in any kind of way. People are failures. A whole lot a people who claim to be Muslims are failures. Dont’ blame anyone for seeing you, or any Paki man as a terrorist or opportunist. You yourself noted that bombs are going off regularly in Pakistan. Bombs are going off daily in Iraq, as well. Muslims are killing Muslims all over the world. Just like you don’t care what Quran says or about Islam, it’s the sentiments of many Muslims. It’s why their state of affairs are as they are. Instead of your Paki brothers turning to Allah the Provider and Sustainer for their sustenance, they turn to European or American women to get what they want. They disobey Allah. They bellyache about westerners, but at the same time they sleep with them and love them. I don’t blame any country for protecting it and the people from potential terrorism. It’s a fact, Muslims blow sh!t up.

    Muslims have turned their backs on Allah – turned away from Allah – and Allah has turned His back on many Muslims. Their condition is exactly what it should be. Allah is a Just God. Muslim shouldn’t blame anyone anywhere for their condition. They need to start pointing their fingers at themselves and put the blame where it belongs – on themselves. Allah says he cursed the Christians and Jews. Guess what, buddy, He has cursed the Muslims too.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    Ana! Theoretically it is true that believers should be able to get along not practically. i dont care what ever Quran has to say about cross cultural marriages in fact nobody cares. Because Islam has been a failure in tackling racism. people instead of judging individuals judge whole race for the crimes of few.
    As far as inter racial marriages are concerned unfortunately Pakistan was not there at the time of Muhammad PBUH. other wise He would have prohibited marrying a Paki because of their “deceitfulness,lies and cheating”.
    let me tell you what these interracial marriages have done. being cognizant of the fact that these relationships seldom work out because both (men&women) have an entirely different world view. they have resulted in stereotyping of whole community and given bad name to whole nation. your blog is a proof of the hatred that sprouts from Failed Cross-Cultural marriages.
    I just want to mention that, it does not worry me when Pakis are seen as cheaters and not worthy of marrying(like spirit was boasting that none of her siblings gonna marry a paki)because there is enough population of pakis and most of them are busy among themselves. but it does worry me when we pakis are seen as terrorists because i wanted to go to Europe for higher studies and our reputation precedes us, so it will make my stay difficult any where over seas.

  • Alijah

    April 14, 2014

    Spirited!
    thank you so much lovely! I also read what you said to saad, and i do believe that the Pakistani man that i speak of is in the situation that you are in now.
    Meaning that he grew up more or less away from Pakistan, except for holidays etc, and that he sees things the way you and your parents see about Pakistani men. Hence he wants to distance himself from them.
    Tank you for what you said, it does give me some hope in the midst of this mess ! happy

  • Alijah

    April 14, 2014

    oops! I did a type: number 4 should read:
    he does NOT value Pakistani ways, values and mentality, ….

  • marie

    April 14, 2014

    Asalaamu Alaykum All,

    @saad, I like your name, my husband has a teacher with the same name. We like it because it’s a letter from the Arabic alphabet that can be tricky to pronounce lol. Oh dear you had me laughing my head off. Al qaida stop it. My husband, brother, father in law and just about every Muslim man I know has a bearded, it’s a sunnah and has nothing to do with having links with Al qaida. Although Al qaida may have beards, I don’t know as I don’t know any of them, I thinks you watch too much TV.

    My husband and I are from different cultures/up bringing, we get along just fine. Sometimes it can be quite funny. One time I said I wanted a ‘chip butty’ (fries on a piece of bread) he had no idea what that was. Fir someone who’s lived in England all his life I thought he would know what that was. Very funny moment.

  • Alijah

    April 14, 2014

    Hi Gail, Maryam, saad and everybody !

    all very good insights thank you happy it is really an eye opener here to read your input, and I do deeply thank you for all you are saying to me! truly god sent to find this website for me!

    1 – I am seeing someone else for a few years, but we live in different countries and we have become more friends now than an actual couple.

    2 – The age difference is not that great between the Pakistan man and myself, and it does not show. He looks more mature and older than me in fact.

    3 – He is a resident of our country, which means that his papers are in order to work here, and has been working here for almost 3 years and his contract with us is for another 3 years.
    However, I did not want to look too deeply into his nationality, but I will when i get back to work next week.
    He could have the EU nationality of the country we live in, as he grew up here since age 10.

    4 – He does value the Paikstani ways or mentatily, this is why he distances himself from other Paki men at work, and socialises with the non Paki people, except for that one friend that we have in common.

    5 – His parents live in the same EU as we live in, and they live here legally also, and I have met them already as he invited them to a work event and he introduced us.

    6 – He speaks Urdu, not Punjabi, so I hope that his frame of mind is different from the ones that you are describing indeed. Good tip on trying to learn it indeed! wow !! happy super plan there ! i could also record his conversations and ask someone what they are saying i just realized happy !!

    7 – I do genuinely believe that since he grew up in the EU, he has adopted this country and the europeean idea of love and romantism, and he certainly knows that game very well indeed, consciously or not…

    8 – against everything that I have said, I do have to acknowledge that him being in Pakistan for 3 weeks and him reassuring me about it, is a very important factor here indeed… I had assumed that he went there to spend time with his grand parents and counsins.. which i now realize that it is NOT a good thing, as it does not mean the same as it means for me to visit my family … :/ meaning: if i visit my cousins, it does not mean that I could be visiting my husband to be…

    9 – the country I live in does not allow polygamy, but of course it does not stop him from marrying in Pakistan to his cousin.

    10 – I don’t intend to convert to Islam or to allow him to take a second wife, so if he is serious about wanting to be with me, he should also consider those points and I hope that we will find a breathing room. I would not expect him to adopt my own spiritual routine, beliefs and practices or to come to our monthly/ weekly events all over the world… so this is something that he should be prepared for me to continue and to accept. If he does not, then we have a problem indeed.

    Well, I won’t see him for another week or more, and when he comes back from Pakistan, he will be getting some serious questions from me sooner or later …

    thank you saad for that link on the bombings in Pakistan, I knew that it would be dangerous for him to go there, but i had no idea how dangerous this would be …

    also thanks Gail about telling me that Paki men like danger, so do I unfortunately.. ! lol hahah!! i guess that this is part of the attraction that brings us together happy !

    as to sex, he would not get that from me anyway, so no worries there happy !

    ps: last point, in 3 weeks time, I will start working in a different place as well as in the place that i am now in, so i will see less of him and eventually i can also leave the place where i work now. so that is another option for me if this is getting a bit too painful for me.

    thank you ladies and saad for the reality check! that is one of our problems, we are both dreamy and unrealistic… and sucked up in our jobs happy ! lol

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    saad, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    “Cross cultural marriages” is a tricky one. A lot of times culture and Islam conflict or people put culture before Islam. However, any persons of any race, ethnicity or nationality who are Muslims/BELIEVERS should be able to get along, and have a very good marriage, as culture wouldn’t become an issue. They’d put Allah first above all else. Islam/Quran would be their focal point. Allah swt didn’t say anyone should only be with their own kind. He says he made us so we could know one another and not despise one another.

    The only requirement Allah places on Believers is that the believing men marry believing women who are single and the believing women marry believing men. The pure is for the pure. And those who aren’t pure are for those who aren’t pure.

    I agree with you that when the married couple gets all caught up in culture there is a major problem. Some mix culture with Islam and their cultural practice contradicts or conflicts with Islam. In the case of mixing truth with falsehood, all one has is falsehood. On the other hand, and we hear about it a lot,for many, culture supersedes or precedes Islam. Culture many times is a hindrance to ones Islamic belief.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    spirited.
    was your father born and raised in Pakistan?
    (if Yes)must have been hard for your mother putting up with him or was he an exception to the general rule?
    any ways cross cultural marriages must be avoided, in the long run they are bound to fail.

  • maryam

    April 14, 2014

    Wa alaikum salam Ana,

    That is partly what attracted me to Islam, seeing peace and serenity on the faces of some Muslim women I knew.

    Unfortunately, these days more often I seem to seeing despair or hopelessness on too many sisters faces. Maybe I need to get my vision checked (hahaha).

    There’s also instances of a person saying shahadah to marry, but later faith entering their heart strongly. More so than the person they married. That can open up a whole different set of issues.

    Sometimes families expect the “new” muslim to simply adopt the family’s beliefs and customs under the guise it’s Islam.

    My husband’s family expect me to wear hijab in front of his father when visiting. It’s unnecessary in Islam. I said I will do it out of respect for his feelings (and because it doesn’t offend me), but only if my husband acknowledges it is a cultural not Islamic practise.

  • saad

    April 14, 2014

    @Alijah you are getting through so much trouble just dump him and look for anyone from your own kind. you will be alot more happier and secure then.
    more over does he have a beard? if Yes, then he might have links with Al-Qaida. more over visiting Pakistan is a BAD idea if you value your life. there are suicide bombings on daily basis. check this out.
    http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/database/bombblast.htm

    @maryum no exactly it is not numbers game, they are just evil vile creatures. otherwise Pakistan would not have been in such a mess.

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    It’s not a matter of: should I become Muslim or shouldn’t I. Ummm Oh, let me see Pondering and Thinking

    It’s not that kind of party.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ana

    April 14, 2014

    @maryam, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    About becoming Muslim in name only, I think it happens quite often for some people. It seems to happen when a woman is married to a Muslim man who accepted her as a non-Muslim, but then finds out he has a Muslim wife or will marry a Muslim woman. She wants to be on the same playing field as the husband and his other wife, so she converts. She most likely reverts to whatever she was, if her marriage doesn’t workout. There is the woman who take the Shahadah simply to marry a Muslim man, as well. Faith never enters their hearts as they were never sincere about accepting Islam. They never really accepted it. Some women accept Islam for all the wrong reasons. Sometime women accept Islam to please her husband.

    The women who do this do not realize that we don’t choose Islam. Allah determines who will be Muslim and who won’t. We actually don’t have a say in the matter (it’s all an illusion that we do). A person who Allah chooses for Islam won’t leave Islam when they become disenchanted about Islam or the person they accepted it for is no longer a part of their lives.

    A person who accepts Islam for other than to worship Allah could forget it. It’s as if the person never accepted it. Islam is totally about Allah, not about accepting Islam to please a husband or obtain some worldly gain. People can fool others and themselves, but they can’t fool Allah.

    I read someplace, not in Quran, that one gets what one accepts Islam for and nothing else. So, if a woman accepts Islam for a husband, it’s all she gets. She definitely loses in the Hereafter. There is no Janah/Paradise for her. The same goes for money and any financial or material gain etc.

    I know a number of people who say they accepted Islam, but then left it. They never accepted it to begin with. I have since learned not to be so hasty in accepting a person on their statement that they accepted Islam. I intend to do a thorough investigation before I put myself out there to another person simply because he or she say they converted/reverted.

    I don’t believe in trying to convince anyone to accept Islam, as I know Allah determines who will be Muslim. The person who He will make Muslim will find his or her way to Islam. Allah says to invite people to Islam with wisdom and beautiful preaching. People should see good qualities in us that makes them inquire about us and Islam. I had people approach me about Islam, knowing I am Muslim from my modest clothing and head covering. There was one woman who commented on how calm and at peace I seem (I was out in the workforce then). She said she wanted to be like me. People sees good qualities in Muslims that they are drawn to.

    I always say, I don’t want anyone coming up to me preaching a religion, not even Islam (the people with those newspapers etc), so why would I think someone else would want to be the recipient?

    I heard a number of times lately, the saying, “When a student is ready, the teacher appears.” I totally believe it.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • maryam

    April 14, 2014

    Salam alaikum, welcome new people

    Spirited, WOW that’s really something that your parents have been put off your own country’s menfolk.

    Gail and others in America, in your opinion are Pakistani men more likely to date/marry Western women than say Arab men? Or are there just alot more Pakistani men in America than other muslim migrants?

    Could this bad impression we get of Pakistani men partly be a numbers game?

    The other point to mention to those considering futures with these men is children.

    Most mothers I know won’t compromise on what they think is best for their kids. And regardless of their level of devotion, most Muslim men want and expect their kids to be raised muslim. This can cause serious problems.

    A person’s faith can go up and down, a non-religious 20r old could be practising very strictly at 30yrs and want his kids to attend Quran class and his daughters to wear hijab (regardless of what you agreed at marriage). Would you be be able to accept that?

    And please anyone who thinks, or whose boyfriend suggests she just pretends or just becomes muslim in name only, don’t be fooled. No one can keep up appearances over a lifetime, not matter how much you love someone. It would be too exhausting and filled with frustration. Especially a religion like Islam that has compulsory practices. Always be true to yourself.

  • Spirited

    April 13, 2014

    Salaam,

    I just HAD to stop and say,
    @Gail, that’s some hardcore, EXCELLENT advice. I really noticed so much of what you said to Alijah to be spot on. High-five big grin

    Alijah, I welcomed you & Saad in another topic, but I’ll do it here too — welcome aboard, and I would HIGHLY suggest that you put your emotions aside and really give this a LOT of thought. These men honestly are above all: egotistical and selfish. They may not appear to be, but once they get what they want, you’ll be shocked. I’m still always surprised at things I read from others — and it is mostly to do with Pakistani men. You might be charmed by him now, but that charm won’t last if you have to deal with the kinds of things people here have been dealing with laughing

    @Saad, welcome also. My parents are Pakistani, but I was born & raised in the US. Even my parents are disgusted by the behavior of a born & raised Muslim Pakistani that is my husband. They’ve even noticed many other deteriorating or finished marriages with Pakistani men. They’re so ashamed and disgusted of Pakistani men, men from their own beloved home country, that they actively try to avoid or recommend AGAINST Pakistani men for marriage. For sure they aren’t going to be looking for anyone from Pakistan to marry for the rest of my siblings, you can bet on that. For even people who love their country to hate the people from there now is really showing something, don’t you think?

    Ok well, back to my regularly scheduled slog through books rolling eyes

  • Gail

    April 13, 2014

    Alijah,
    One more thing in case u r unaware is that Pakistani people don’t marry for love.It is a foreign concept to them to be frank.Love may come after marriage but not before.If he has interest in you he is seeing something in you he wants either greencard,citizenship,or sex to be blunt.
    My husband actually told me this and I was astounded that how could this be true.I took notice and yeah I have to say I believe him.You can’t love someone if you have an arranged marriage.Love takes time to develop and I do believe it does develop after marriage but again Pakistani as a a general rule have arranged marriages so they do not have this western love concept is what I am trying to say.Even in Pakistan u would not believe that they are always looking to marry up meaning money,properties,vehicles unless it is a family member then the poor family will get lucky if picked.The poor family will move up in status.I’m not sure u understand all this but again I would advise u to study the culture and ask a million questions and NEVER take him at face value until u know him way way longer.

  • Gail

    April 13, 2014

    Alijah,
    Listen one resounding theme I am hearing is that this boy is very young.How many years age difference between u is my first question?Secondly Paki males don’t give a hoot about about authority.They love taking risk they r the biggest risk takers I know to be frank so don’t put alot of stock into he must be crazy in love with u.I would be more inclined to chalking it up as being young and dumb more than anything else.I don’t want to sound all negative with you but just do like u were saying and check if he is in the country on a work visa.Also I want to be really honest here if there is a vast age difference between you then u must must hope for the best but plan for the worst if u are going to going to eventually think to marry this man.I will be honest if there is a vast age difference or his parents have a cousin in mind for him to marry u need to make certain u can deal all this drama down the road because there is a real chance that u could end up in polygamy with a much younger cowife that may do her best to get rid on you.This is worse case but u have to think worse case when u are dealing this type of people.
    It is very good u have time to get your thoughts in order since your working environment will not allow u to date each other.
    I would advice you look around date other men.Do not fix your sites on this one man is my serious advice.If u do decide to go for him then take it very very slow and go to Pakistan meet his family in person and learn the language and do not tell him u know Punjabi and just listen to him with others u will be able to figure out after awhile if he is sincere or not is my advice.
    Oh do not worry about speaking Punjabi just concentrate on trying to understand it.

  • Alijah

    April 13, 2014

    ps Gail: I also forgot to say that I have checked his file in work a few weeks ago, and he has a 5 year contract with us, I did not check if he is a citizen of the EU now or not however, but I will do that when i get back to work after my 2 weeks off.
    Also the thing is that we are not allowed to date each other where I work, it is the house policy. So if we do date, it would not be now.. it would be a few years down the line… or if we do date, we both risk our job, and a heavy law suite perhaps even jail.. so i am not sure why whould he take so many risks if he is safe in Eu for at least another 5 years and with a safe, secure and well paid job .. all this for me… if he was not sincere? what do you think?

  • saad

    April 13, 2014

    @Gail you are right. i was trying to prove that there are good and bad people everywhere. i am fully aware of the fact that some paki people marry British nationals for permanent citizenship (most of them are illiterate ones or having humble family background). and you people are doing good job in educating the rest. personally i don’t like the idea of inter racial marriages. because there are more differences than commonalities.
    any ways thanks for taking your time out.Bye

  • Alijah

    April 13, 2014

    Thank you Gail for your sweet loving warning! I fully appreciate it indeed. I come from a poor country in the middle east, but i grew up in Europe. I know the men from my country also only use women to get a visa into the EU, so no worries, i do know exactly how they behave, for having been a victim of their sweet and interested love, as long as they want your goods, money and a free pass into Europe..
    Also my Pakistani man is much younger than 25 years old, and he grew up in Europe also with his family.
    They all have residency in Europe legally as far as I know, but perhaps that may run out for him? It is something i would need to check with his papers i guess soon, before getting into this even deeper. you are so correct !
    Also I am positive that he is not married back home, but he could be engaged or something however i think…
    He usually does not hang out with Paki men in work, except for one common good friend that we have in common, who is like him a little bit of an angel in my opinion.
    They are both good muslims, and I don’t think that they are the lying type. mind you, i have always thought that being religious meant that you do not lie and can be trusted, but in his case, i know he lies in work about small things.. but you are correct, if he lies about small things, he could certainly lie about bigger things. ..
    I am a little concerned about him being in Pakistan for 3 weeks now, but i do trust him I have to say.
    However, from what you are saying I should be careful … I have been betrayed before, and i would like to think that i have learnt from the experience.. but i know that love makes us go blind.. and yes, i truly appreciate the insights that are here for all of us to read. thank you <3

  • ana

    April 13, 2014

    @Saad,

    Gail pretty much answered the question you asked me. She did a very good job. I second what she’s said.

    We’re not discussing other ethnic groups or nationalities; the topic is Pakistani men. You shouldn’t ignore the fact that Pakistani Muslim Minister Baroness Warsi has acknowledge the problem that exist with regard to some Pakistani men. Although she says the number of men that she speak of who are participants is the minority, it’s prevalent enough to warrant public attention.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    April 13, 2014

    Saad,
    You seem to me to be trying to prove a point which knowone really cares about except maybe u.Whether u like it or not pretty much anything and everything gets a label slapped on it and Pakistani people r no exception.Obviously most people feel it is way safer in the long run to marry a European man rather than a Paki man.Please stop acting like u don’t know their is problems in your culture when it comes to Pakistani men fishing on the net for European woman to marry.Yes I am certain their r other countries that do the same thing but we r not seeing it in huge numbers like the Paki men.

  • Alijah

    April 12, 2014

    Nice to read the latest posts! happy and thank you ashes for the lovely advice !
    I agree with all that you have said here! and i do appreciate what you are saying fully.
    Nobody is my family cares about religion to be honest, this does not mean that they will not try to do the right thing or that they are bad people. they just want to try things out for themselves without being told what to do. And I am pretty much the same: experience alone matters to me. As such I can appreciate everybody’s life experiences, although i do find it difficult not to judge others when i disagree with them, which is one of my big shortcomings. I tend to forget that we all have different stories, views and need different experiences.
    As to Islam, it would be the same as Christianity for me, religion is just not for me.
    It does not mean that I have no personal beliefs. I am more spiritual than religious. this does not mean that i don’t respect others beliefs and life choices, and I would expect the same in return of course.
    Yes, his parents and even him made it clear to me that becoming a good Muslim is the main thing for them if I am serious about him … but of course, part of him is a little critical of that .. and he does understand what i am saying. His parents however…. humm… i think that while it is their wish to have their son married to someone that they can trust as a Muslim, they are pretty open minded people.. by the looks of it.. well.. one lives in hope!! lol
    As to children, I would never dream of imposing anything on them, as nobody imposed religion on me. I went to church a few times with my cousins as a child, even though my parents only went once or twice per year. Then they asked me if i liked going to church and if i wanted to continue going there.. to which i replied that i did not like it at all, and that i did not want to go any longer.
    The same choice will be given to my children of course, they will decide what is best for them when they are ready in life i should hope. happy
    Thank you for the warm welcome and the lovely reply! much appreciated.
    I DO understand what you are saying of course, and only time will tell where this will go..
    and yes, i adore this person happy !! although just about everything separates us, it is interesting to observe us come together happy

  • saad

    April 12, 2014

    @ana
    it is possible because it is your country and pakis are just immigrants there. any ways answer my question. people of which ethnicity are good?

  • Gail

    April 12, 2014

    TO all the new ladies on the blog reading about Pakistani men,

    I wanted u to know that I have been married to a Pakistani Syed Muslim Shia man for almost 11 yrs now.I really love my husband but my marriage life has been so hard and filled with so many lies over the years from him and his family.I am American and I did not know he was keeping his 1st wife who is his first cousin a secret from me for 8 yrs before the truth came out and I was mentally a basket case when he told me the truth.I know his first wife personally and am raising her biological children as my own in America with my own children.My husband finally let her go 2 yrs ago.
    I just want u ladies to know please be very careful when u are dealing with these men.If u get caught up in their world and try to break away and free yourself later on u may find people u know now and consider your friends will turn their back on u later on.I can’t stress enough be careful.

  • Gail

    April 12, 2014

    HAHAHA,
    I like your attitude welcome to the blog!!!

  • Gail

    April 12, 2014

    Alijah,
    Listen it is truth if he is over age 25 and I kinda got in your post he maybe over 30 then girl he is 99.9% married.Now obviously if both of u r muslim and u can accept being a second wife then u will be fine but if u do not accept polygamy then u better thing a million times before jumping on the love boat with Mr Don Juan(however u spell it) lol unless u want to end up like the titanic and go down with the sinking ship understand? Also u need to know even if u accept polygamy that don’t mean his first wife will accept it and believe me when i tell if he don’t want u to know he is married he will go to the ends of the earth to make certain u do not find out.Pakistan is a very corrupt country and to get the truth out of anyone there is a nightmare.Also do not expect his family to tell u anything other than what he has told them to tell u also thats just the way it works in Pakiland and never ever smile back when other pakistani males are talking to him in punjabi and looking at u and smiling because they r all the same and know to score a white woman means immigration and a trophy wife.Make certain he is not using u for immigration and by that i mean is he a USA citizen if not then 99.9% he is using u for immigration.American woman are nothing more than them playing a game of cat and mouse.Sorry wish I could be more positive towards Pakistani men but they are all about their family in pakistan and the American woman tend to get a bad deal and I don’t mean in the way of divorce.I mean like u have to deal his family and all the drama and if he has a wife in pakiland she is more than likely going to be a family member and she has ultimate authority over your life because she was picked by her husbands parents for marriage understand?

  • ashes

    April 11, 2014

    Alijah-

    I am a western “white girl” that’s been dating a Pakistani for a few years now. The relationship has been amazing and I’ve met his family several times and love them. Of course, they understand we want marriage -dating isn’t taken lightly. Not every man from Pakistan will clash with others outside his culture/religion. However, all the issues here have been raised because they are common enough norms. Read through this blog and discuss each concern before you become serious with him.

    Muslim men are allowed to marry people of the book and some marry whomever they choose, even atheists. However, in my own situation, I find that life is getting soooo much more enjoyable the more I learn about Islam and it feels so good to be able to support my guy. One has to be ok with the children growing up Muslim, as that’s what the husband will expect. This is assuming you date people because you see a future with them and not just for fun. So make sure you research Islam and are OK with the teachings.Remember, you may not have to live it, but It’ll make life so much better for kids not to live in a split home.

    although this blog is for polygamy, you’ll be surprised how much you can learn about culture and religion. Everyone here is quite the character and their readings are enjoyable, it makes it fun to keep up with the writings, and in the process you’ll learn about the religion and culture, patience etc. Sometimes this blog can sting when Muslim posters put down non-muslims, especially when riled up. Most of the time they don’t even realize they’re doing it as nobody here is mean-spirited, and they’re just speaking the truth since they are strong in their beliefs. I suppose not everyone is carful with the wording like I am. happy Anyway, welcome! I hope things work out with you and yours. Again, you’ll love this blog.

  • ana

    April 11, 2014

    HaHaHa, Welcome to our home happy

    I must say, I got a couple of good chuckles from reading your post laughing Thank you. I’m serious. I liked reading your post. It is always nice to have fun and not be so serious all the time.

    I know you must be in your glory that you found out, before you got in too deep, that the Pakistani guy was going to have an arranged marriage. Good for you.

    I agree with you that there are guys who are “users” from all countries. I think there are a lot of rotten apples (men) out there and one bad apple doesn’t spoil the whole bunch, but it sure seems the pickin isn’t good when it comes to those from Pakistan.

    I can’t discount that it’s quite the norm for a Pakistani male to know from birth he will marry a cousin or have an arrange marriage, but would be expect to come to the States or U.K. to marry women there, too, to advance their lives and the lives of their families back home.

    @Saad, welcome to our humble abode hee hee It’s not so humble.

    You said the U.S. or U.K. should deport them so they stop giving Pakistani people a bad name. I don’t see how it could be done. This is “land of the free, home of the brave, so they say.”

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • HAHAHA

    April 11, 2014

    I didn’t marry, but I briefly dated a Pakistani, and I was very lucky, I found out immediately that he was going to have an arranged marriage, and I left him.

    I am not bitter about the experience anymore, because while he was not a good man, he was also not any worse than some other men I have dated (including western ones). After dating men from many countries, I don’t know if one should “beware” of pakistani men any more than men of other countries. There are all kinds of men from all over the world that might be using you for a visa, using you for money, or using you for sex.

    The world is full of people that use other people, and I dont think Pakistanis are any worse than anyone else in this respect.

    However, I will say that I refuse to have sex with anyone that identifies as muslim/ or is strongly religious, until I have met their family and know where I stand. They are very sexually repressed and frankly, have a strange mentality that they can have their fun in america before going back to their country and marry a good girl. Frankly, I dont feel like participating in this little game – even though I am no longer a virgin. I have sex when I choose and I definitely dont give it out as candy to horny losers on vacation in america.

    if they are going to marry a good girl, then they should do it and not date you at all – so avoiding sex with them is really a good way to screen them (well, its also a good way to screen men of any country, but my point still stands).

  • saad

    April 11, 2014

    hi every one. i am from pakistan.
    i have been to 4 other blogs before somehow i ended up here. and every body was discussing how bad pakistani people are. Like they are some kind of vicious animals. i have some questions to ask:
    1) if you think pakistani people (males specifically) are bad, can you name me people of any ethnicity who are all angels?
    nobody should be stereotyped. i haven’t killed anybody but because i am muslim, i am supposed to be a potential terrorist. and because i am Pakistani, i am bound to be a cheater or rapists like it is part of my genes?
    i agree with the fact that there are horrible pakistanis who are excuse for humanity but i have seen many good pakistanis too who will never cheat any one.
    P.S for your information they are human beings just like you people. and please kick pakistanis out of UK/ USA if you are sick of them they are further spoiling my countries image.

  • Alijah

    April 10, 2014

    Thank you selma, he is far from 25 yet.
    I have met both his parents – he introduced us at a work event. He kept staring at me, while others were talking to him and his parents. It looked pretty obvious that he could not care less about anything other than us spending time together.
    I am pretty sure he is not married, but i am getting concerned now about him being engaged or something to his cousin or sister… i thought it was lovely for him to spend time with his relatives, but it looks now as if this is far from being a safe situation … ! i had no idea about those things before reading this blog.
    thank you Ana for setting this up for us.
    Well, whatever the consequences of our friendship, if we are ready to move forward with it, I am sure it will be permitted from above.
    If our path are not meant to be, we have no other choice than to resign to greater forces above us…
    I have no reason to distrust him at all, and we do trust one another, which is a wonderful feeling happy
    If we ever get together, I would include a close that he cannot take a second wife…. unless he allows me to take a second husband.
    As to the religion thing, if we truly love one another, we should be able to deal with it.
    I know both his parents want me to become a devoted muslim, and I may accept to do that, or at least put in the outer form of it, in order to please and reassure them that i have the best intentions for their son.
    xo

  • selma

    April 10, 2014

    Hi @alijah if he’s older then 25 he’s got wife in pakistan beware

  • Alijah

    April 10, 2014

    Thanks for the kind welcome dear Gail,
    I have been reading through the blog, just a few posts, not all of the comments, as it is a very busy blog.. Gail, Thumbs up for having been to Pakistan and for speaking your truth and about your experience with the 1st wife thing and for supporting the group.
    As to myself, I have met a wonderful young man from Pakistan a few months ago in my workplace.
    He is the most adoring and loving person I have ever met, but although we adore one another, I wanted to find out more about his culture and what to expect if I decide to go ahead and give it a try with him.
    His family and him are observing Muslims and I have been hodling my feelings for him off, because I am not a religious person mainly.
    He is now in Pakistan for 3 weeks, after he made sure to reassure me that all will be well while he is away seeing his family and friends. He made a point of reassuring me, and I was not sure why he was so insisting.
    I found myself thinking of him a lot while I have not seen him in ten days now, and my feelings for him are clearer and clearer now.
    At the beginning, when I first met him he was very distant, arrogant. Till one day he had to speak to me about work for a short while, and he was really kind and nice. not at all what i had been expecting of him.
    A few weeks after that he started joining one of my weekly hour groups about culture in Asia and has been coming to them devotedly since he first came. When i asked him why he came to the group, he became a little deffensive, and started to give me several reasons related to work when he comes to my groups. and it is fine with me. But then during the break, i noticed that he is not leaving the room, he stays with me alone in my room, while i review the minutes of the 1st part and see what we will talk about for the 2d part of the meeting. I noticed he just sits in the room silently, and stares at me, and if i stare back, he apologises for staring and looks away.
    Over the weeks the staring at me had become more and more insistant and passionate, and i began to really find him extremely attractive and good looking in turn also.
    He kept coming at the groups and brought one of his friends a few times and 2 weeks ago, everything that he was saying was designed to attract my attention to him, and he was engaging me in conversation with him for the entire duration of the group. I could simply not get away from him, (to my great delight), but the other people did not even dare look at us anymore, and some did not come back the week after. It ended up being just a chat with him, his friend and myself, and the other people in the group feeling somewhat embarassed…
    After that we met a lot by accident at work and there were a lot of smiles being exchanged and we were both very happy to have made a friend.
    Soon i realized that our feelings were a lot more than just being friends however, and he has been coming closer and closer to me and me to him.
    He has really opened up to me and trusts me, he is a lot more talkative to people, smiles all the time now, and a lot happier around me. We have a wonderful complicity now, and we even play roles to fulfil other people’s expectations of what our relationship should be.
    However I do feel that there has been something that he has been holding back form me about Pakistan and his country, culture. Something that he almost feels ashamed about, and embarassed about. When him and his friend talk about Urdu to me, he sometimes gets so embarassed that he becomes all red and looks away.
    Just wanted to thank you all for opening my eyes a little more as to what to expect in the long run, if i decide to stick around him for a while at least and to give this a chance.

  • Gail

    April 9, 2014

    Alijah,
    I agree with what u said a 100%.Welcome to the blog!

  • Alijah

    April 9, 2014

    Hey ladies, I fully agree with incredulous here.
    Too much brain washing of women goes on from the minute they are born. They are told that they are inferior to men and that they must obey the male gender as they would obey to God.
    Which is utter falacy. utter non sense. My advise to anybody falling into the trap of lies and deception and the other wives trap is to walk away from that hell and never look behind. period.
    No matter what it will take, no matter how hard you will fight for it. just walk away. no man ever is worth that kind of sacrifice.
    You are the owner of your own thoughts, body, and choices. get empowered. no man can dictate to you. You are a Creator and a spark of divine God. not an insult to human kind.
    May Allah / God love your sins for allowing the crimes of your gender and of your daughers.
    Blessings

  • ana

    April 4, 2014

    Ummof4, Assalamu Alaikum,

    Alhumdulliah for you. You help take the blog to another level. You have more patience than I do when it comes to dealing with certain people.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ummof4

    April 4, 2014

    Hello Incredulous,

    I have a few questions for you.
    1. Are you married?
    2. Are you Muslim?
    3. Are you a woman?
    4. Do you have children?
    5. Do you personally know anyone who is in a polygynous marriage?
    6. Do you think you can carry on an intelligent dialogue without resorting to negative name calling?

    I am perfectly fine with having a dialogue with people whose ideas about life are not the same as mine. However, I will not have a dialogue with anyone who cannot be civil and display intelligence. Negative name calling does not display intelligence to me.

  • ana

    April 3, 2014

    Incredulous, hello

    Thank you for your comment happy

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Incredulous

    April 3, 2014

    I cannot imagine what tragedy has befallen any wonderful, unique, powerful, precious woman that she would voluntarily “settle” for crumbs from any man. I have read post after post here of women who claim to have “Their own” in terms of assets and otherwise independence who for some sick, twisted and oh-so-sad reason are ALLOWING another woman into their lives, their relationships and even their homes. I am so grief stricken, I can hardly type. Girl, grow a pair. Get a wise, empowered woman to mentor you back to wholeness, because something is seriously broken. Move YOUR partner in…because Sister, you don’t have one, if the one you’re living with thinks you’re not enough (and he needs supplementation). Seriously, inform him, matter-of-factly, that you will be moving YOUR second husband in, until which time he feels he can be a 100% partner to YOU. Tell him you won’t settle for even 1% LESS from him. Period. Religion my ass.
    I don’t care who you are, how you look, what trials or tribulations or chinks you have in your armour, YOU DESERVE MORE. This is so incredibly derogatory to you and every woman alive, you cannot allow this in your life. Get help, get out, get your soul back, NOW. May THE ALL THAT IS GOOD, RIGHT and LOVING light your way. Way past time to do away with the double-standard!!! Peace and Love to you all. <3

  • ashes

    March 22, 2014

    @ Ana
    Indeed, it’s a hard situation to be in. I believe you once said that “a wife can beg and plead and make the man promise he will never become polygamous all she wants and even he may think he NEVER wants to be, but if Allah has already decided it, nobody can stop it”.

    My own spinoff of that is nobody knows the path for their marriage, only Allah. I’ve heard so many stories of people marring what appeared to be the best person ever -and I’m talking about EVERY race/culture/religion and then years later a partner turns out to become abusive, alcoholic, druggie, lier, having affairs etc. This is universal. I guess the point I’m trying to make is… every relationship is a gamble since, technically, nobody can say with certain what life will bring, only Allah knows.

    I may have these worries about my Pakistani partner, but whose to say if I ended up with a goody two-shoe all-American white boy he wouldn’t turn out to be a cheater or something else- I could read up on a site where people have been cheated on and get just as paranoid. Since every relationship is technically a gamble, I guess all one can do is be aware, openly communicate and believe their partner, enjoy life, go with the flow and stop worrying so much and then take appropriate action once something does happen. Life doesn’t always turn out to be a fairytale… I guess one of the best reasons to only count on Allah.

  • Jenny

    March 22, 2014

    @ Katie & Ashes,

    I’m married to the most incredible Pakistani man!!! My husband has been honest to me always. Everyday I am in constant contact with Pakistani men and the advice you read about is well worth heeding. Advice from me: Don’t play Sherlock Holmes, you won’t find what you are looking for if he was hiding a secret, BUT do keep your eyes open and your ear to the ground.

    While I may trust my husband, it will be a frosty day in hell before I trust his family back in Pakistan (and we get along too).

  • ana

    March 22, 2014

    @Katie,

    I’m glad you found us and I thank our dear Judith here for reaching out to you. I don’t know the answer either. You should, however, be aware that it’s possible a person is married and there is no formal documentation of the marriage. Jenny,(one of our dear blog sisters here) is married to a Pakistani man who was married to his Pakistani/cousin, however, there was no written documentation of the marriage. Marriages based on the Islamic way of life do not have to be registered any particular place/agency for it to be valid. The marriage only need validation by God.

    I agree with Judith that if you are feeling uncomfortable about marrying this man, it could be a sign for you (although I worded it a bit differently. I think we meant the same thing).

    @ashes,

    I know it’s not easy at all for you, dealing with the “what ifs”. I wouldn’t want to be in the position that you are in. Nonetheless, everyone is in some situation; it’s just a different one or could be the same, but no one is free from a situation.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • ashes

    March 22, 2014

    Katie- I wonder the same. My guy and I are also planning to get married -I already met the family and everything. He’s super sweet, well-educated, already a US Citizen and treats me amazing. This site is so informing; I’m happy I’m aware of cultural norms, yet now I have the occasional thoughts of “what if” which are super annoying. I’ve openly discussed with him things such as: is him having an arranged, polygamous, secret or cousin marriage something I should ever worry about? Is he already married?

    The first time he laughed and said he isn’t like that and calmly explained why I never have to worry. I keep reading here and get paranoid from time to time after hearing all these stories, I bring it up every few months and he’s getting extremely hurt, last time I asked him, he was so hurt that he broke down and was so disappointed that I have these thoughts. Made me feel awful. He feels stereotyped, and upset that I don’t know his character after knowing him for two years and especially that I could say such things after meeting his family and hanging out with them the entire 4 months they were here visiting him, which is a huge step in that culture.

    Katie, have you ever discussed this with your partner? If not, don’t be afraid to, it’s a legit question and he should be understanding (unless you keep asking again and again and again like myself happy ) Have you met his family yet? These two things should at least make you feel way more comfortable. happy

  • Judith

    March 22, 2014

    Dear Katie,
    I don’t know the answer to your question, but the fear alone should tell you something. Pay attention.
    j

  • Katie

    March 22, 2014

    Is there any way I could check if my partner (Pakistani) is already married back home? Any governing bodies I can call for information? We are planning on getting married here, I am so scared my life can be just ruined one day, please help.

  • Gail

    March 16, 2014

    A Pakistani man,
    Hi I am Gail and I am married to a Paksitani man that used me for a USA Greencard.Even until this day my husband tries to make excuses and say he did not but the truth is he did.I have lived in Pakistan for yrs and travel back and forth all the time and live for months at a time in Pakistan so I am very familiar with the culture and what Pakistani men will do to get out of Pakistan as I am certain u are as well.Pakistan is a country that is spiraling out of control downhill fast and people want out it is logical but I ask u where does one draw the line?Do u think it is right to marry innocent Foreign woman that do not understand Pakistani culture and pretend to them that Pakistan culture and thinking is very modern etc… And before u say Pakistan is modern thinking country then why all the polygamy.You can not even imagine how sick and shameful it was for me think I was married to a man that was divorced but in reality keeping his 1st wife/1st cousin a secret from me and right under my nose.I being a respectable woman and loving mother let my husband (what I though exwife stay with us when we were on vacation in Pakistan)Little did i know the dirty duo had this sick secret and everyone knew about it but me.Long story short Hubby got rid of her 2 yrs ago and formally gave her talaq but that caused a whole other set of issues.Anyway this is reality of Pakistan and what alot of men are doing to get out of pakistan just to let u know.

  • ana

    March 16, 2014

    @A Pakistani Man, welcome,

    You are right; there are “good and bad people all over”. Nonetheless, there is a problem and people should be aware of it. We shouldn’t simply bury our heads in the sand when it comes to it.

    It’s a serious enough problem that the Muslim minister Baroness Warsi has spoken on it

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9275179/Some-Pakistani-men-see-white-women-as-fair-game-says-Baroness-Warsi.html

    Thank you for commenting happy

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • A Pakistani Man :P

    March 16, 2014

    I think this is very anti-social to predict whole population on basis of a criminal sample. There are good and bad people all over and its very natural.
    You are right for some of them but its very unkind if used for all of them !!!
    Stay Blessed and Next time search for the right man not the right ethnicity because there is no such thing when it comes to human kind!!!

  • ana

    May 20, 2013

    As Salaamu Alaikum & Peace to All,

    As we have come to the conclusion of another thread, we ask you all to join us over at the new one, which is http://polygamy411.com/a-polygamous-life-desires-and-pain/. All our welcome to continue their discussions there or join in on the new thread.

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Sarata

    May 20, 2013

    Asalaamu Alaikum / Hi all happy

    Hope everyone’s ok & Hi + belated welcome Tina! 
    I’ve lost track of everyone’s posts a bit over the past couple days so I’ll just post a quick “me” update. 

    After my lil meltdown I was feeling better. 
    On Saturday I invited my friend / Co2be over for dinner as my hub was going to his mums. 
    We had a nice fun time with my 2year  old having us dancing & stuff. It was kinda like how it was before this whole 2nd wife thing came up. 
    She went home b4hub came back & me & he had a nice normal night.
    Then on Sunday morn me & Co went to our Quran lesson & then went shipping afterwards and home for lunch. 
    Again all fine. 
    Chilled alone with hubs for a while then we picked her up and hub dropped us (me,Co & my son) at the beach. More fun. 

    When I got home my MIL,bro in law & a few of hubs aunties were there. 
    Now a random thing hubs bro always does – before I’ve had chance to even assess who’s there – he goes “they’ve come to greet you – do u recognise them?”. 
    I have a BAD memory for names when I don’t see the person often. But sometimes it just takes me a while to remember but he doesn’t give me the chance. I end up going “yeh I recognise everyone but forgive me until I remember people’s names” or something similar. It’s horribly embarrassing & awkward & leaves me feeling flustered and rubbish. 

    It’s know not intentional on bro in law part. And normally once they’ve gone I’m over it. I dont see them cery often anyway. But Not last night. 
    Hub took his mum home and I was a mess. Feeling so insecure – I’m not great wife material & I’m not great at entertaining – I get it all wrong. Left feeling all “I don’t belong here…” blah blah. 
    But added now is that my Co is perfect at all that – after all it’s her culture and she’s been trained since birth lol. 
    And this time it’s not jealousy I’m feeling about it – I just feel totally inferior like my inlaws will now have a perfect wife to compare me to. A “proper” wife from his own culture. Urgh. 

    I’d cried myself to sleep before hub even got home so I never discussed it with him. It was like a massive smack down after I’d been feeling relatively normal for a few days. Hmmf.
    No fair sad
    Maybe having a co will take that pressure off me? Maybe she can do the perfect wife thing – getting to know all his family properly – doing all the things they expect of us. If they’re gonna see her as the proper wife anyway then fine – i can just be me and stop worrying about it. in theory at least!

  • Jenny

    May 20, 2013

    Hello Everyone! I’m baack!

    Actually, we got home awhile ago. The plane came in an hour early. Dropped the luggage at home, then had to go to the store to do some grocery shopping. Not a scrap or morsel in the house. When we came home, I was so beat. My eyes were just glazed over. Hubby sent me to bed “for an hour.” Bless his heart, six hours later I woke up, him snoring next to me. He put the groceries away, made dinner, bathed the kiddies, put them all to bed, cleaned the kitchen, and left me a plate of food on the stove (he knows me so well that I would have gotten back up). So here I am, just finishing my delish dinner. I only got up to take my medicines and check on the dumplings.

    @ Ana,

    Welcome back! Tomorrow at some point, I’ll shoot you over some pictures from our trip. I’ll give ya’ll the scoop tomorrow. Just wanted to say hello and to thank everyone on the well wishes and prayers for the procedure.

    Doc said everything could not have gone better. He thinks we have about a 75% chance of twins again. Gee, do you think we can handle it???

    I’ve started having the queasy stomach and food has been an issue. It seems I can really only eat one meal a day and maybe some snacks. I feel like Adam from “Man vs. Food.” In my case, food wins. laughing

    @ Tina,

    I wish you much luck. I hope your intended husband is a kind and honest man. My husband is one of them, but I learned that is definitely the minority. Nevertheless, I deeply love my Pakistani husband. I could not have asked for a better husband.

    About what was raised about a short courtship, I wouldn’t worry about that. The day I met my husband, he told me I was going to be one his wife. As I’ve shared before, I was engaged to an Orthodox rabbi at the time. My husband was right. I would break up with the rabbi and marry him. I ignored hubby for a little while because I didn’t think he would be good for me, but hubby would not give up on me. Our wedding date was set and we were married within six weeks,

    Gail stated my husband lives “under” me. I don’t know if that is entirely accurate. Yes, everything we own, all of our businesses, everything is under my name. Which means if we ever divirced, I would have every penny. However, my husband being the very wise man that he is knows that by his giving me everything, I gave him my everything as well. I am fiercely loyal to him. Hubby could care less about money. I’m the one who spends it.

    Tina, there is some truth in Gail’s words, so listen to her as well. My advice is to keep your eyes open at all time.

    Two questions if you don’t mind me asking: how did you meet and why would you want to be a second wife?

    Ok, now I really have to go back to bed!

  • Gail

    May 20, 2013

    Ruqayaa,
    I agree you totally.That is how I felt when I made my demands to hubby and cowife.I let it be known there would be no sharing from my end.Either we all live together or he could kiss and she could kiss it as far as I was concerned.I felt like I didn’t ask for polygamy in my life and by dang I wasn’t going to let him dictate to me that I had to share.However after hubby and cowife agreed to my demands I agreed to give it a shot.It was hard I won’t lie and now looking back I am glad it is over for me but I am only glad it is over because excowife wanted my divorce from hubby and wouldn’t stop or change herself so obviously hubby gave her Talaq and sent her on her way.It bothered me for awhile but now I am fine with it.I am of the opinion to live together one family unit if u must practice polygamy simply so u don’t have to share and the children have their dad but to each their own way.
    Just be creative is my advice and if u see something u don’t like or u are unhappy with change it.As long as your cowife is fare with u and not trying to cut your back or throat every time u turn around then polygamy is doable and not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

  • Gail

    May 20, 2013

    Tina,
    All I can say is Guard your fiances.I don’t know what it is about Pakistani people but they desire to either go to England or USA any other country is normally secondary on there list.Their mental attitude of USA is Pamela Anderson running around in a bathing suit on the beach understand?Do you know about his finances is he wealthy enough or is he a struggling artist shall we say?Pick the situation apart with a fine tooth comb girl then if u feel like this is acceptable to you then do what u like but for me I wouldn’t trust a Paki for nothing and I think that says alot because I have lived in the culture but again thats just me.
    Just be careful I would hate to see u distraught in the future and emotionally blackmailed.I don’t trust them.

  • Aishah 2013

    May 19, 2013

    Kim thank you.inshallah he will do the right thing.either that or a foot in his a$$.what can I say when I have said it all…I did try hard to have some kind of relationship with her.I see now she had a number of things to hide so it would not be a sincere relationship.I admire that you are able to try again with n,this person is just not worth the effort..God sometimes keeps people apart for a reason.if the lack of communication makes him a little more bipolar I can’t help that.and I don’t say it jokingly…the attempt to combine the real life with this fantasy person could be some mental health stuff.we all got something!

  • Ruqayya

    May 19, 2013

    Kim youre absolutely correct in what you said. And while I understand that what should a woman in polygyny do? Her desire for her husband does not decrease just because he is fulfilling his desire elsewhere. Her need to have him help with housework and kids etc does not descrease because he has additional respo sibilities.
    While I sould like to put a cage on him so to speak I know it will ruin our marriage.. I just want him to realise the reality of polygyny and that it wont be all fun and games like he seems to think.

  • Kim

    May 19, 2013

    Sis Ruqayya,

    forgive me if I’m wrong but I am hearing anger and resentment in your words; kind of like you want to put some sort of punitive cage around your husband if he ever takes another wife. NOT that I don’t relate, I do….it was an issue I had that I had to work through, and I didn’t really have a “lead up” as a monogamous couple to “rehearse” and work through issues before they became my daily reality. I never got fair warning that a co-wife was coming, and truth be told, neither did M. It just happened.

    Honestly, I learned the hard way that putting all that “thou shalt not have a life of your own” on your husband backfires bigtime. Try to remember that IF your husband should take another wife, it’s already been decreed such. Don’t punish your hubby for what Allah has given him. Believe it or not, polygamy comes with a lot of difficulty for the men…it ain’t all rosy on their side either; polygamy is a test for the husband as much as it is for the wives.
    .

  • Tina

    May 19, 2013

    Hi All,
    @ Gail, thanks so much for your comments and concern I will definitely take your comments into consideration. The man has lived in Canada for many many years and has no desire to go anywhere he has over the years brought over his parents, his sister and his first wife. He said he made it very clear from when he first met his first wife that he wanted more. He knew he always wanted to live poly. He seems very considerate of his first wives feelings and she knows he has met someone and is talking / texting to them. She has seem my picture and says hi when we are texting sometimes.. I will be meeting her in the next month or two as he won’t move forward without her approval. I would combine any of my finances since being a second wife I would not have any legal recourse if it didn’t work out.. I currently own my own home, have good job.. so I am not planning on contributing financially. Granted we really haven’t talked about all that yet. He is adamant that we all need to live together after a period of time.. it is truly what he wants and I think I would be ok with it all.. time will tell.. happy I see there are pros and cons to living this way so we will see what time brings.. but he does seem very considerate and nice.. albeit a little old fashioned in his views .. maybe that is the muslim part..

  • Ruqayya

    May 19, 2013

    See I will not be as forgiving and easy going. As Gail said if I wanted to be alone so much I would have stayed single. Im not an independent person, yes I like my free tjme but not all the time and what about when we have kids? Nope if he expects me to give up half his time love affection and help so he can fulfill his desire he best damn well plan on losing most if not all of his free time to spend o kids and fulfilling MY desire. I dont have the option of going elsewhere so he better prepare vide. He asked for two wives so if he thinks his up to the task he can prove it lol. If it were up to me id have him everyday happy
    I do appreciate his kindness, mashaAllah he really does try his best. and if it werent for this polygyny thing we would probably not even fight… Alhamdulilah we have been avoiding fights as of late.

  • Kim

    May 19, 2013

    @ Gail,

    I think the greencard issue for Tina isn’t an issue. I know you’ve gotten bitten hard due to what your hubby did and I can’t blame you for the reactions you have, but I promise you if this guy’s been in Canada for 20 years, he’s either a permanent resident or a Canadian citizen and isn’t marrying Tina for residency purposes. His first wife is here and has been here for 4 years. I assume he got her here and had to have some form of citizenship/residency in order to do that, though I’m not familiar with Canadian immigration law to that extent.

    For the record, while I met M in June of 2007, we didn’t express a real interest in each other in “that way” for a couple of months. In July of 08 we legally married. Kind of a whirlwind, and I wanted to marry sooner than that even LOL…when we had our first date I knew by the end of it I would say yes if he ever proposed. Fortunately I didn’t have to wait long. Our first date was September 2, and he proposed on September 12.

    Quick type “engagements” happen over there and in the Islamic countries especially. M explained that to me. He married his first wife 10 days after they met and they were married almost 10 years with 2 kids. HE didn’t screw it up, she did, which she fully admits.

    I’ve chatted with lots of 2nd wives who married their husbands after only a couple of sit-downs with them. The Wali did most of the leg work, but in any event the time between meeting, sitdowns and Nikah is quite short (by western standards). It’s pretty normal.

  • ana

    May 19, 2013

    As Salaamu Alaikum & Peace to All! big grin

    Well, everyone, I’mmmmm back…What's Up Animated Text

    I’m happy to see all has been good here in my absence. Alhumdulliah (Praise is due to Allah). I haven’t been able to look at all the comments from the last several days yet, but Insha Allah, I will get to them. The blog has a bit of a problem I have to figure out eventually. Before I left, I tried to put you all on automatic approval, which worked for some, but not others. So, I need to figure out what the problem is. My wali/bestess was kind enough to check in periodically to approve comments for me in my absence, for which I am very grateful to Allah that He allowed him to do it. The bestess got a taste of some of the work I do. He was very much happy to hand the job back over to me Giggling I thank everyone here for being so kind and courteous in welcoming our newcomers. I appreciate you all very much.

    Alex and I had a very nice vacation. It was soooo much fun and relaxing too. I think this is probably the first vacation we’ve had that didn’t seem as though the time flew by. It was so enjoyable. Alhumdulliah (all praise is due to Allah.) I can’t thank Allah swt enough. It’s a special month for Alex and I (our anniversary – the actual day is coming up on Friday. We have quite a few events and affairs planned for the evening before and the entire day of. Insha Allah, all will go well. I know Hilly and Gail have anniversaries coming up in June; it’s exciting.

    The font of my comments on the page here on my computer are coming out in italic. I’m wondering if it’s just my computer or the web page that everyone is seeing. Hopefully it’s just my page, so I don’t have to figure out how to fix it. All the smilies don’t seem to be working either – sigh. I need the sigh smiley here, right about now LOL

    Don’t let me hold any of you up. Carry on… I think our Jenny is due back today, as well. Insha Allah, IVF worked and she is with child

    @Maureen,

    I pray you’re getting better. My prayers are with you, my sister. Stay strong. Remember Allah MUCH, so He can remember you

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Gail

    May 19, 2013

    Tina,
    You sent off alarm bells when u mentioned in your post that u have only known this man 6 weeks and he has told his wife he wants to practice polygamy.I can assure you his wife is not for polygamy and he has not told her he ever intended to practice polygamy.The only reason a Pakistani wife will accept polygamy in my humble opinion is that the husband promise the Pakistani wife he will divorce the foreign wife after he obtains Greencard status or Citizenship.
    I will be very blunt here are u going to planning to help this man obtain a greencard ?If this is the case u better know your marriage will be on risk after he obtains what he wants from u.I wish I could sound more positive but the reality is more than likely he is scamming u and before u dare plunge into this marriage u better be certain u don’t let this man or his wife near your assets or chances are they will ruin u financially.One more thing u can’t believe anything he says as the entire culture grooms them to be liars.I hate to say it but it is the truth.Lord I have been married to a Pakistani man 10 years and I don’t know if he has ever told me the truth on any matter.With u being 45 I would think a million times if u can afford a Pakistani man and his family.Listen another thing even if u know Pakistani people u can’t judge what u are fixing to do by other pakis u know because this nation they keep things hidden behind closed doors.I pray u think long and hard before u jump in a Pakistani Boat.
    Jenny here claims she has had a great relationship with her husband and I believe her but do I think her husband has been completely 100% honest with her knowing the culture the way I do I would say I seriously doubt it but she is smart enough to have got everything in her name so she is safe because her husband lives under her and believe me when I tell u that as crazy and controlling as that sounds it is the only sure way to deal with a Pakistani man.In my case I adopted my husbands son and in process to adopt his children from his first wife when I figured out he might not be the knight in shining armor that I thought him to be.
    Anyway sorry to sound so negative but I wish I had someone to tell me to watch out before I married my husband .It would have saved me the disgusting life I now have.Also u need to know that if u go to Pakistan everyone will treat u nice on your face but they will talk behind your back because they don’t accept 2nd wives and they will know he is going to get what he can from u my guess greencard and cut u loose.Sounds disgusting I know but thats the truth of it.

  • Kim

    May 19, 2013

    So, with all the stress and upheaval this past week, I kind of let part of my new way of eating and working out take a back seat. I stuck pretty much on plan diet-wise, but didn’t walk at all. My job is a teensy bit strenuous at times though so I guess I got some exercise in, but not the actual WORKOUT type. And I fell back a tad diet wise…skipped some meals, overdid it on others, had ice cream (albeit low carb) and some wholegrain bread on a patty melt when I took my son out for dinner. I ignored the scale.

    Today I did my walk, and added in some resistance training. I also tried on a pair of jeans that as of January I couldn’t put on without feeling vital circulation being cut off LOL…well, the legs are officially BAGGY! The waist fits comfortably and the butt sags. Alhamdulillah! I also braved the scale and am down between 15.5 and 16 pounds. So even with my slight slacking, it’s still coming off. YAY!!!!! big grin big grin big grin

  • Kim

    May 19, 2013

    Asalaam Aleikum KA126,

    Very good news, you and your co are able to discuss things and come to terms with each other. I can understand her jealousy (sure we all can) and as long as SHE can come to terms with everything, insha Allah y’all will be okay. After that initial bout of fitnah I think I’d be extremely leery, but you probably shook things up a lot by telling your husband you want out. When they hear that, a conscientious husband realizes that sh*t just got real LOL…

    I’m sure your co feels a good amount of upheaval, I mean, going from Ghana to the US and joining her husband and his other wife, that’s a lot to take in all at once. Of course, ganking your stuff and lying about pregnancy and moneyt and all that is pretty counterproductive and certainly doesn’t get everyone off to a real good start, but it’s over n done, today is a new day masha Allah. Keep on keeping on, dear, and it will all fall into place as Allah has decreed for you all.

  • KA126

    May 19, 2013

    @Gail and my fellow sisters,

    When you say that things are temporary, you are definitely speaking truth. The wonderful thing about this blog is that everytime I speak of an issue, it dissapates. I’m sure my contant prayers/duas are also helping, lol. In sha Allah! My Habibi, CoCo and I are back on track… after much discussion and telling my Habibi I wanted a divorce. Astagfirullah. It’s funny that I don’t have jealousy of my CoCo… just certain expectations from my husband. While I’ve learned that my CoCo is satisfied with my husband’s actions but is jealous of me. SubhanAllah!!! It’s amazing what coffee and firl talk will do. I love that my CoCo and I are able to talk things out. I explained to her that my trust had dwindled and that I didn’t like lies and deception. I could tell that her apology was sincere. However, I will not be a fool, I will be paying close attention as well as make sure I keep my cool. In the meantime, I did go get all my things she took out of my room.

  • J

    May 19, 2013

    Kim, am happy to here that N is trying and being nice, I really wish you guys the best. I definitely did not do anything gutsy, I said something because I knew the sisters knew, because their husbands told them. I cant see myself just sharing this information tho, I am always the verge of tears, and I could never let someone see that. Especially when people look at me as a strong sister.

  • Kim

    May 19, 2013

    @ J,

    Well….I am being cautious with N. Cannot help that, but I’m open, probably moreso than I’ve ever been in this. I don’t think she feels she’s got me in her hand; she does the same thing, sending gifts, being understanding and conscientious of things (wayyyy more than she was before). That night he slept over there unexpectedly she was falling all over herself apologizing on the phone, and yesterday when I went out to meet her she again was very sorry. I assured her it was the best outcome even though at the time I was WTF’ing all over the place, I told her there’s nothing to apologize for and ANYWAY it was M’s responsibility to let me know ahead of time, not hers. She didn’t want me to think she coerced him into sleeping there. I know she didn’t. I overheard them on the phone the next day talking about what a screwup it was, his letting time get away, so I know it was an honest case of time getting away. It was all good happy

    Aishah, you just made me count my blessings. N is VERY conscious of M’s obligations with the kids. Okay last year she tripped out regarding his daughter coming over here on her day, but it wasn’t as much about that as it is that he hasn’t confided in his adult children about N. The reasons for that are N’s fault – she destroyed their relationship before there ever was one, and M’s son told M that if he is going to do this he wants nothing to do with it, doesn’t want to hear a word about it. His daughter said she doesn’t want to hear another word either, soooo….he had to kind of keep up appearances and come here as if he lived here 100% of the time, and have dinner with her. I know N felt horrid about that, lord knows I would too, but what can be done?

    However she is VERY conscious about these boys of mine, who are M’s stepchildren. Even last year amid the fitnah, when my youngest was very sick with some bug, I informed M, and N immediately let him know he should come home and be with him. It wasn’t necessary, I mean a bug is a bug, but it was a very mature and kind thing to do on her part and I appreciated it.

    By the same token, she has her 3 kids….if something big came up with them, I would of course understand, even though he doesn’t have that fatherly type of relationship with them. They’re still her kids, though 2 are grown, and the youngest lives with N’s ex, but still. Kids have nothing to do with any issues between the spouses and as Jenny said, when kids are involved, our wants and needs have to be set aside. I think your hubby needs to step up and not let your children feel like they come second to the co-wife. Ever.

    I know you don’t have a relationship with her and that’s ok, Aishah….I lived months in polygamy that way. It has its good side, for sure, as J said, living in your own marital bubble. For me, though, it also bred mistrust in some ways and I didn’t like that. I prefer openness with all involved, and stick with my conclusion that forging a bond with N is just as important. So far so good….it’s only my head/heart that tend to kick up a fuss. I’m striving very hard to get a handle on that internal mess happy

    J, it was gutsy of you to fill the sisters in on your polygamous marriage. I say that because the reactions aren’t always what we’d expect from Muslimahs. Many are appalled…not kidding…and will either to your face or behind your back be really derisive. I think some of that stems from fear of them finding themselves as a wife with a “#”. I never really encountered it much, but I don’t associate with too many Muslimahs outside of the internet, here in America. I think in Kashmir the news would get a very mixed reaction. There is polygamy there, but it’s not pervasive, and pretty limited to very archconservative communities. 2 of M’s brothers tried it with 2 wives and it was very difficult and ended in divorce. M’s brother in law’s dad has had 2 wives for over 40 years though! Another guy I know, my brother in law’s wife’s brother, has had 2 for several years also but one lives in Germany and the other in Kashmir. It all seems to work out for them. But whenever the topic of polygamy came up in conversation with the friends I had there, they HAAAAAAATED the whole notion. My maid shook her head and said “2 wife no good, very bad, noooo good! Too much of tension, too much of fitnah!” She was so cute though. It was kind of too bad, I would have loved her for a co-wife and actually considered it. After N and M split I thought about it again. Told M she’d be a great co (provided she got over the “noooo good!” attitude lol…..)

    J, Insha Allah these ladies you spoke with will continue to be supportive. We all need that from time to time.

  • Aishah 2013

    May 19, 2013

    Sorry heads out to Isha. And doesn’t return…unless she calls him for an immediate ride if which case he runs like a trained poodle.so he spends time both places in a day/night.sometimes has skipped kids but has never skipped her.so it will all work out somehow inshallaj.I just don’t want them to be terribly disappointed.she is basically from all appearances a pretty selfish young lady so I’m not automatically expecting her to put children’s needs before her own.she has not to this point.and yes it is his responsibility to put it all into place too. Those kids spoke to him yesterday about how he doesn’t spend enough time with them and how I do everything(I wasn’t there to hear thislaughing.think he was upset but shouldn’t be surprised..the addition of another wife doesn’t weaken your obligations to your family…its a hard test I guess and can weaken or strengthen the man’s deen. Anyway welcome all new folks.Jenny hope it works.how many days do they wait before implantation? Gail grass is so not greener on other side…if you got thru all that you did stick with it.Old love not the answer just a diversion.Kim wow if it continues to work out…back to man days and “whose time it is”if its a work day he better be working or making money to support an extra..as far as visiting during day..sex…I have had during day like on weekend without considering whose night was which so I guess it happens on other side of town too (I just have to put my anti yucky thoughts hat on!)extra time for him…I wouldn’t prevent it no probably needs to destress but he’s not been organized enough to get there.does he get an extra night that’s his?nope.where would he sleep?these men aren’t exactly sacrificing and sleeping alone!

  • J

    May 19, 2013

    KIM

    I wasnt offended at all girl!! lol. your to funny, am really proud of you as well, its amazing what you are doing mashaAllah trying to befriend her, inshaAllah everything will work out for the best. But you know also still keep your distance cuz you dont want her to be like ooo I got her in my hand shes always reaching out. You know what am saying, us females can be crazy lol. But your awesome May Allah subhaana wa taa’ala reward you much for all your efforts.

    I wish sometimes my co would reach out, but she doesnt, maybe its because hub told her not. But anyways at the same I dont even want her to reach out at all. Even thinking about being friends right now is to hard, I like the concept, but it hurts to much now. Even though before all of this we werent friends like that we did know each other and talked and stuff, but I guess now she feels differently now that she is with my husband. I feel m ore secure and better being in my bubble, I dont like letting people in Anymore

    I had guests over yesterday and of course they already knew and the sisters couldnt make it anymore obvious.. dont get me wrong they werent mean about it, one of them am pretty close to but we dont talk to much anymore. When the men left for Salah, I said okay I know you heard from your husbands about this, and before some stupid catty sisters tell you guys, I will tell you that my husband took another. And they said nice words I guess I was expecting something negative but alhamdulillah they said they were proud of me, and in this situation you need lots of patience and with patience come great reward in the hereafter, and that one day they will probably be in the same situation.

    yee so thats the little update. okay I need to clear my brain its starting to fog and my heart is starting to beat fast sad

    on the good news we bought an awesome area rug, its a loft shag..ooo I loooove it. as am typing am laying on it. verry nice lol.

  • Aishah 2013

    May 19, 2013

    Hi everyone.thanks for advice about birthday stuff.it will not involve Co as we don’t have that kind of relationship rapport.and believe mewe don’t do big deal.its just about the kids and them getting to spend time with “their”dad…I put it that way cause Co level of dependency is as high as any elementary school kid and they have said it before “he’s not her dad.he needs to spend time with us and do stuff with us”.and yes they deserve it…one was fostered adopted so she was meant to be here and the other one was basically a miracle baby so yes we should acknowledge its amazing they are here and if not for God they would not be in our lives.PS.Congrats. Maureen.So I have felt a bit like a card dealer at a table but I have given up a bit to make sure they have him their notes.now to make sure he comes earlier…we don’t do a strict magrib.to fajr schedule..he generally head

  • Kim

    May 19, 2013

    sis Ruqayya,

    Oh I see me in your words so clearly LOL…one thing M complained pretty regularly about in our polygamy journey was his lack of “M time”. Now, as I too am very independent and need lots and lots of space, i.e. “me time”, before he married N he got all he needed. Time to himself, time with his friends, you name it. But once N came into the picture that all changed and he felt strangled. By N, definitely; she hated for him to be out of her sight at all; and me? Oh, I don’t know who slapped Velcro on me but I was on him like flies on sh*t too. Dude was suffocating.

    He is so terribly afraid of that feeling again. I understand, and I’ve matured enough that giving him his time for himself on my days is not really a problem anymore. And in all the marathon conversations he’s had with N, I am positive he has reinforced that with her as well. Insha Allah she sees that he does need his space too, it’s a healthy good thing. That “letting go” comes with time and understanding. That giving him room to breathe and do his own thing does NOT automatically equal he’s out fishing for another woman, or sneaking over to have sex with me on her days (yeah, really…she thought that was going on!). He isn’t about to look for a 3rd for crying out loud. I know it for a fact. Getting N to comprehend that was impossible last year though *sigh*

    But anyway, Ruqayya, your husband is trying to bring you comfort and that’s a wonderful thing. I just hesitate to embrace his words about not wanting a 2nd because if Allah put that desire in him, it isn’t just going to vanish. He may decide to wait awhile, til your marriage has had a chance to rack up more miles (you’re still pretty newlywed, right?), putting it off until you feel stronger in your marriage, and when Allah decrees it to happen, it will. Or it may not happen at all. Only Allah knows. But do NOT ruin your here and now with it, Ruqayya. Embrace the kindness of your husband, love him, enjoy your marriage. Don’t waste time dwelling on things that you have no control over, nor does your husband. I’ve learned this along the way, and it was a lesson repeated many times. (((HUGS)))

  • Kim

    May 19, 2013

    ARGH. Huge post poof gone. Does anyone know how to desensitize the keyboard or something on a windows 8 laptop? *head/desk*

    What I was TRYING to say that went *poof* is I am so sorry if I offended you, J, I meant absolutely no disrespect. It’s just that becoming a practicing, believing Muslim after years of a very different life we were born into, grew up in, that shaped our minds and beliefs, well, it’s a process. I only used hijab as an example…I know many new Shahadas put on a hijab and there it stays forever. Again, I’m sorry sister (((HUGS)))

    Sis Ruqayya, I don’t know about the upper hand N had, I suppose she did. I know I felt that way when I first discovered what was going on behind my back. I let her have it via text (ganked her number from M’s phone) to let her know I wasn’t anyone to be messed with, I’m not about to make this easy for him, and she let me have it right back with both barrels lol…I can laugh now, but oh, those were some horrible dark days sad However, it’s in the past. I want better than that with N. I believe she wants better with me and we both deserve to give OUR relationship a shot. However, I want it natural, not “forced”. I hope that makes sense. I want to love her as my dear sister, my friend, my co-wife. No pretenses. Our smiles and laughter should be genuine, our giving and sharing something we love to do. Yes, a tall order given the history, but I believe with the permission and help of Allah we will get there happy

  • Ruqayya

    May 19, 2013

    Kim I’m so happy you have been able to battle the shaytaan and find benefit for yourself in polygyny and really be the bigger person when it comes to N. Im sorry for the misunderstanding I see how she ended up with the upper hand knowing she was walking into polygyny while you were left I the dark. Very sad indeed but mashaAllah you were able to come so far.
    Updatw from my side is hubby sat me down after a melt down (from me) and explained when he asks me to go out or sometimes doesnt seem so interested to hug and kiss etc as I do its because he enjoys his free time. Which I understand as I So enjoy my time lone as well. But after I aksllsoed him how much I need to give up should he take a second wife? Explaned to him I would not allow him to have free time or see friends etc o my days he told me he was no longer interested I taking a second wife. Sadly I dont believe him… but I desperately want to.
    Oddly enough today I met a sister who met his criteria and I got along with sooooo well. I began thinking it might be nice… but as soon as I got home to hubby those thoughts disappeared lol. I think im getting a bit bi polar and even if hubbt is really rethinkinh polygyny I know it will stay on my mind for the rest of my marriage which makes me really sad.

  • J

    May 19, 2013

    Kim

    Awww why would you suspect of anyone who did a 180 after taking there shahada? I think I did more like 360 lol!! By the time I took my shahada I knew a lot of about Islam and I loved it. I knew everything from women covering and why, meaning of Sunnah, the five pillars in full detail, even some Salah etc. So for me when I took my shahada I started covering right away and its been that way for 7 years Alhamdulillah..hhmm now that I think about it some sisters were like wow your going to cover like that..hhhmm okay point taken lol. But I do see your point some people take shahada and dont really know much and then start learning.

    Knowledge is power. happy Difficulty brings ease happy Actions are based on Intentions happy

  • J

    May 19, 2013

    Tina

    I agree as well, most men cheat sadly, you are very brave to consider a lifestyle like this. And in Islam at least being able to have up to four wives the man is forced to give them there proper rights and support them, not just fool around.

    And if you have any questions about Muslims or Islam we are all here to answer happy I’ve been Muslim for 7 years now and it’s the best decision ive ever made in my life. I come from a very very religious Baptist background, went to church every sunday etc. When learning about Islam and researching it, I fell in love and I knew it was the truth, I embraced it right away. happy

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    Hey Tina,

    Don’t worry about the smiley faces…can’t have too many smiles in this joint! Kidding, but I like the smileys. Bring ‘em on! big grin

    Well, I’d have to agree with you about men who cheat. The majority do. And an ever increasing number of women are doing so as well. Marriage ain’t what it used to be.

    M is very NOT conservative. He’s not very religious at all, but he has his core beliefs. N is more religious as far as observing, salats, etc. Me, I’m somewhere in there, probably a bit closer to M as far as practicing goes, but I too have my core beliefs that are ever present even if it doesn’t appear that way. One doesn’t take Shahada and become a completely practicing Muslim overnight. It’s a learning process, it’s a change (complete change) in lifestyle, and I’d be suspect of anyone who did a total 180 the minute they took Shahada. For me, I was pretty gung-ho at first, wouldn’t appear in public without coverage head to toe and all that. I’ve relaxed on that though I dress pretty modestly, I don’t wear hijab all the time.

    Prayers can be a challenge, they almost seem at first an interruption to our day. Soon though they become as natural as eating and sleeping. It takes time and of course true faith, belief and desire.

    IDK if I could handle an arch-conservative husband, personally. I am obedient to a point with M; I am submissive but only when it doesn’t go against my better judgment. M doesn’t expect me to be either. But I do serve him, literally. He’ll be sitting in his easy chair and hold out his empty coffee cup and that’s my cue to go fill it for him. But he does things for me, too, like that. We’re very compatible masha Allah happy Considering I am very very VERY independent in actions and thought and verbiage, it’s a good thing he’s easygoing LOL….I serve no earthly master big grin But having a strong man to take charge is not a bad thing at all, and at times I do wish M would be a little more that way.

    I doubt it’ll happen though. The women in my husband’s family are very headstrong and M is accustomed to that and expects it from his wife. They do their traditional women’s roles, yes, but you better believe they’re outspoken and never take any crap. I love that about them! I fit right in lol….

    Anyway, your story is fascinating, and I look forward to hearing about how the meetings go and everything else. Insha Allah your journey to polygamy will be as stress-free as possible and your future co-wife and your future in-laws will be wonderful to you. Sounds to me like you’ve got the right attitude and heart for it. Bless you Tina happy

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    @Fatima,

    See, that’s what’s weird. I mean no two families in India or Pakistan are really alike any more than 2 families in the US are alike, so I hesitate to paint the entire population with the same broad brush, BUT, it seems as though you, Gail, Jenny to a degree, and others have these nightmare greedy in-laws wanting and wanting more, especially from their family member who flew the coop and came to America or elsewhere in the west.

    M’s family is totally different. They don’t see life here as any kind of cakewalk whatsoever, the US is not flowing with milk n honey in their view (accurately so). M’s standard of living is significantly lower here than in Kashmir, and in his belief as well as his family’s, life over HERE is so hard in comparison. Many of the family members have traveled, but few to America. Only his dad was here once. But they’ve been everywhere else. Having resided in both the US and Kashmir though, I wholeheartedly agree with them. M’s family is fairly well to do but they’re not like, disgustingly rich or anything. They live quite comfortably there with little financial stress for the most part. So, his family is bugging us to come back because life HERE is so so so hard compared to Kashmir. Funny….but I gotta agree with them.

  • Tina

    May 18, 2013

    Sorry I didn’t realize I did so many smiley faces.. I will have to watch that

  • Tina

    May 18, 2013

    Thank you for all of the warm welcomes happy My journey towards Muslim religion is ongoing, I was raised Catholic, non practising.. I have seen in my lifetime that most marriages either end in divorce or the man cheats, I do believe most Christian men cheat either occasionally or ongoing – but that is my opinion and what I have seen.

    In exploring Muslim, I realized men can have up to 4 wives and have been doing research, pros and cons, reading this forum happy to see is it really better, would it work for me, for a first wife.At least it is all in the open (in this case anyway) and would include marriage. I haven’t been to concerned with sharing a man, maybe that will hit me later lol.. I met the man I am to many on line and we have been communicating for about 6 weeks, his wife knows he wants more wives and he is going to seek her permission first. I will meet her and his parents over the next month, I am not sure when we are going to get married hopefully in about 6months, we all want to make sure it will work for everyone happy but I feel very positive.

    I do find my future husband is very conservative, and is expecting obedient wives that get along and help out around the house..he is quite a strong man in opinion and thought, but I actually like that happy I guess we will see what the next few months bring.. Hopefully even though I have limited knowledge at this point I can become a support for you ladies as well happy

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Fatima,
    You are also correct in the fact that I am sick to death of the inlaws and all their drama they caused on themselves.I just have zero tolerance for their problems anymore.They create their own messes.
    Also more than those people being poor they are same like Pakistani nation it seems with family members and desire everything they can get out of the person working outside the country.It is just expected and part of their insane culture.Crazy is IS CRAZY DOES!!! when talking about those cultures if u ask me.Don’t feel sorry for your hubby because he understands all this very well and is going right along with the culture program.I tried to stop my husband several times in the past but he never listened and I am sick to death of screaming at him to knock off.His latest venture is he is building his parents a Grand Mansion in ISlamabad oh what JOY!!I have only been asking for a home for well lets see now OUR ENTIRE MARRIAGE!!!
    About my first love him and I actually talked daily for 3 months on the phone and net and at first I thought the same thing it was reliving the past but as I got to see him now in his life older and more mature I started to see him different and I really adore his personality and work ethic and family values.So yeah if I had not had got to know him then I can say yeah u are right but dang I got to know him now and wow he is really a good guy.

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    Asalaam Aleikum Fatima,

    Thanks sweetie, I am trying. I’ve texted N a little bit this evening via M’s phone (still not ready to give her my new number), after I got back from the Halal market. I got an extra 1.5 pds of lamb and going to give it to her. I also got her a thing of baklava (which I adore myself but on this diet it is kryptonite for me LOL), and I bought her a little battery operated clock which sits on a stand. behind the hands it says “Bismillah ir rahman ir Raheem” in a pretty gold Arabic script on the face of the clock. Well, mine does anyway (I can read that much Arabic LOL)…hers I got has a verse from the Holy Qur’an but I cannot make much of it out. I’m sure she can read it though happy

    So she just came and picked up M. Given that it’s 9pm here, I’m assuming it’s an all nighter. That’s okay though. BTW she looked absolutely beautiful, had on a red and gold outfit from the wedding she’d just been too. I’m in an old t shirt and newly baggy jeans, hair all over and no makeup. Oh well. BUT, she invited me to a wedding at her masjid next month….some distant relative getting married. I’m really excited to go! Insha Allah she and I will continue chugging toward our goal of unity and friendship and sisterhood between now and then. I did make another du’a before going out to meet her to keep the ick feeling at bay and it did stay away Alhamdulillah. Pretty soon it will be gone altogether happy

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Kim,
    Yeah I know.See Hubby was in some kind of relationship with a woman from our community he swears they were just friends but I read the emails and he called her sexy and complained about me.This relationship went on for 7 years nearly our entire marriage.Part of me hates him for what he did and I can’t find a way to forgive him.I just see him as the exposed liar that he is.I don’t even know if he had sexual relations with that woman.Of course he swears he didn’t but well as we well know he is not an outstanding citizen by any means.I think they were messing around.I am unforgiving on that topic and secretly despise him if u can imagine.This is why I am dying for a social life so bad and to work and make my own money.I know there will come a day when my kids are older that I will snub him totally and chances walk away.I would have been more forgiving towards his adulterous affairs had he not been such a turd about my first love seriously.

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Tina,
    Welcome to 411 I am Gail.I am glad u decided to post.I love hearing from other woman married to Pakistani men and how their lives are going.
    So when is the Wedding? How much do u understand about Pakistani Culture?

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    @ Gail,

    Oh, I get that, totally get that. I wasn’t suggesting that you were contemplating adultery. (Yeah, I was for me, but only fleeting out of anger. I wouldn’t ever do it. As I told M the other night, “I have never in my life cheated on my spouse….I have way too much integrity and respect for my spouse and for myself to ever do such a thing”. A nice little zinger, since his cheating is what landed us where we are LOL….)

    I totally understand that you’re feeling pretty disappointed and disillusioned and unhappy with where things are right now between you and your husband. I’ve been there too. All I want you to reflect on is simply not making permanent decisions to “fix” problems that in all likelihood with the passage of time will prove to be temporary. He’s going through whatever thing he’s going through. In-laws hanging about are not helping, I know that. And yeah, to be honest I think if you guys went back to Pakistan, despite the issues there, you might be able to better move forward, and do so together as a strong united couple. Allah only knows best, but I think you are feeling like a hamster on a wheel, going and going and going exactly nowhere, staying in the same place. You guys need something to drive you forward, something positive to work together on.

  • ~Fatima~

    May 18, 2013

    Hi Everyone..
    Hope everyone is having a good weekend so far..?
    @Jenny.. Did you already do the IVF? If you mentioned it on here I could not find it. Iknow you are in the Euopean countries now.. and headed home after Switerland.. if I am correct.. Well, just let us know how it went …
    @ Gail.. Hamg in there Gail.. really … If your like me I wake up in the middle of the night with all these crazy thoughts about what in the world am I doing here with my hubs? I mean I say this because even though there is no co like you.. its the rest of the family now .. always a problem… drama drama with them all.. never no peace.. Hubby bends over backwards for them all, says I dont understand that they dont have anything and life is so hard over there..
    I think maybe your hubby puts a lot of strain on you with his family around.. and your so overwhelmed with hearing all the brother in law sister in law .. and who married and divorced who.. and who is backstabbing who.. and la dee da… on and on..
    I mean no wonder you are feeling the way you are.. I would take Jennys advice and use the outlaws..oops I meant inlaws for a live in babysitter and you and your husband go away.. far away. and spend some good time together….. I think you think of your first love perhaps because you have nothing but good memories with him.. and you like Jenny says escape into those past good moments and wish you could capture them again.. Maybe Im wrong but I might be on the right track…
    @ Kim.. Bless your heart.. I can sure tell you are really trying .. I can tell by your words.. It will be fine.. really it will…
    I am a bit tired tonight.. Flea market was busy as usual.. seems like today was baby ear piercing day.. I dont mind.. but sometimes those babies are so tiny and fragile.. but their parents still want them to have pierced ears.. I always have some kind of treat for the ear piercers.. lol lollipops or I have a treasure box filled with all kinds of little toys they can choose from… happy
    Well, will check in again later or tomorrow…

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Jenny & Kim,
    Listen girls I am not speaking of some wild adulterous affair.I am not that kind of person and do have high morals.It is the talking I asked him when we met to be open book for me and he was and at the time I didn’t realize how much I missed that.Look I am not jumping ship anytime soon.I just felt like hubby was a turd and acting like a complete A$$.I felt I was more than fair when he wanted to start polygamy and I supported him but OH NO when it comes my turn to be supported I get the talk to the hand attitude.It doesn’t sit well with me.The truth is I would never cheat on my husband.I might divorce him outright and remarry but I would never cheat.
    As far as hubby and I going off on any trip FAT CHANCE!! he is a workaholic to the core and will not miss a day of work esp now since he is building this huge home in DHA in Islamabad.Then after that he has more business plans in the works so his next 10 years is booked now in saying that get more than enough action in the bedroom well actually more than most woman He is pretty regular stud needing everyday up to a couple times a day.So no complaints at all in that department happy to say.The one nice thing about my husband I must say is that he is HOT HOT HOT.(LOL) But as for his communication skills well frankly he lacks in that department.
    Yeah it is not an Adultery thing at all just wanting a life.I want to go out and enjoy and not be stuck at home 24/7.I told hubby to send me back to Pakistan at least there I can go to parties and hang out and enjoy my life not to mention put the children in School.I am looking to add to my life not throw it away.

  • Maureen

    May 18, 2013

    Salam Ana,
    I pray you’re keeping well ‘n all is fine with you ‘n your husband.

    Yes, I am still hospitalized but the baby is doing fine so far, alhamdu li Allah.
    It’s a boy by the way.

    I just have a question for you ‘n the ladies here ‘n would like to hear/read your input. It may be out of subject, but it would really mean a lot.
    It’s nearly 3 am where I live ‘n I just can’t sleep sad

    Does the 2. Have the right to know about the first (wife)’s pregnancy. Does the husband have to tell the 2nd the news ( his first wife’s pregnancy) in the first place or it is something private ‘n it’s not of her business knowing that?

    Why do men do this ‘n share these kinds of informations without even speaking with their first wife?
    Is it better if the 2nd knows?

    My hubby told his 2nd this last Thu about my pregnancy. He did tell her that ‘n that the baby does have an XXY syndrome, which is not the case alhamdu li Allah much for that.
    He let me know about this conversation with Nr. 2. Today. When I asked him why he did that, he told me to make her feel better. She has lost everything ‘n has a miserable life ‘n I do not want to have children with her due to her alcoholism so I wanted to make it kind of easier on her. That’s why.

    I do not know what to think of this ‘n how/what to feel right now.
    Thank you for your comments in advance ladies ‘n have a good night/say wherever you are guys.

    Much love ‘n Salams Xxx
    M

  • J

    May 18, 2013

    Kim

    sometimes I really wish I knew how you looked like, I love your welcome responses. Like you said once, it would be great to put a face behind every name lol.

  • J

    May 18, 2013

    Gail

    When a marriage is in trouble and previous love is in mind…oh boooooy that smells like trouble. Word or no word, temptation and desires over come people all the time, some men are like that they are very jealous and insecure. I cant really advise you like everyone else can, but there must be something you two can do to work on your marriage? To make the tension die down, to rekindle the fire? You know your situation best, you definitely cant get rid of in laws, anyways to get around things so they can get better? I hope they do. Your awesome

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    Hi Tina and Welcome to 411! happy

    Thanks for sharing a bit of your story with us. Lots of us are married to Pakistanis or South Asian men (my husband, “M”, is from the Indian side of Kashmir). Fatima, another regular, has a hubby from India, then the many wives of Pakistanis, including our longtimers Gail and Jenny (who btw are not Muslim either).

    So I’m curious….how did you meet your intended, how did he approach you with the idea of being the second wife, and what was your reaction? I’m curious because you said you’re Christian, and pretty much all but the FLDS sect of Mormons are very against polygamy (regardless of the fact that it’s all over the Bible). But the tone of your comment suggests you are quite accepting and in fact looking forward to the journey. That’s awesome, you’re doing great so far!

    I was raised Catholic though non-practicing. Met hubs and married in 08 legally. Took Shahada about a year and a half ago, and we had our Nikah shortly afterwards. M married “N” as his second wife last April and they split at the end of the year, but are working on getting back together Insha Allah (God willing). N is Muslim from birth like M is. She and I both have had major major issues to overcome, but insha Allah this break did some good and we’re ready to do this right this time happy

    Anyway, look forward to hearing more about you Tina!

  • J

    May 18, 2013

    Hey TINA

    Welcome!!! happy glad you wrote. This place is definitely the place to be for talking, advice, understand, and venting. I myself do not have experience with paki men but many ladies here do and will help you understand the culture.

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    @ Gail,

    I have to cosign with everything Jenny said. I understand as well as anyone the feeling you have. When I have those heart/head battles going on inside, yes, there have been times (just the other night in fact) when I told M “you know what, I’m gonna find me another guy….even things up a bit. Why should I sit here on your nights with N when hey, I am alive n kicking and ain’t dead yet!”

    There isn’t a particular man in my past I wish to revisit – they’re exes for a reason, but I have spoken these thoughts out loud. M in his flippant way says “go ahead, I can’t stop you” but I don’t really think he truly feels that way and in any case I know my heart would kick the crap out of my head and either I wouldn’t do it or I would and hate myself.

    I’ve also spoken the dreaded “D” word. It’s ridiculous….think about it Gail. If you haven’t split with your husband through the worst of things, why do it now? That’s what I tell myself. I might threaten it when I’m at my absolute worst, but I’m still here happy And the grass sho nuff ain’t greener, promise. You have a lot invested with your husband and family, if you just bail all of that would have been a waste. It would have been for nothing.

    M is meeting N later – she worked this morning, as did I, and had a wedding she is at as we speak. But since her schedule is insane with work all this coming week she wanted to at least see him for a little bit today. Normally he goes there the night before she has a day off but she doesn’t have a day off at all this week. I have no real objection, provided if it turns into an all-nighter I get a bit more advanced notice than I got last time LOL…even though that time worked out beautifully for me Alhamdulillah.

    I’m off to the halal market for lamb and stuff and left her a voice mail to call if she wants anything from there. I’m trying….really trying hard.

  • Jenny

    May 18, 2013

    @ Gail,

    Gail, Gail, Gail… What am I going to do with you? Holy cow, I’m trying to get a little sleep because in a few hours we have to get to the airport. Going to Switzerland, then home. I was up for a second and read your post so I had to jump on for a minute to reel you back into reality.

    First, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. When you go to the other side of the fence, chances are, the grass is green because it is over the septic tank. You have been apart from this man all of your adult life! How can you throw away your family based in a childhood romance??? What you are doing is “escaping.”

    If you were ever going to pursue this relationship with this man, do it when you are not married! Doing while you are married is insane and not of G-d.

    Second, what will you do to your children? Is it worth wrecking their home life so you can get an itch scratched? If that is the case, get a vibrator, and let your children remain happy. Once you have children, your life is no longer yours to do as you please. Your “happiness” comes secondary to theirs.

    Third, you have an obligation to work on your marriage. You need to put your foot down or do some kind of counseling. I don’t know what. You are having problems I don’t have, but you have to remain levelheaded. Since your inlaws are around, demand to your husband that the two of you go away somewhere for a few days. Take advantage of the built in babysitters. Being away does wonders; especially, when it is just the two of you. We live for our trips.

    If you chose to throw your marriage away, that is entirely your decision, but it requires a conscious action before you run to your old flame.

    Stop your mid-life crisis. Work on your marriage and stop daydreaming of him. The psych field call it escapism.

  • Leigh

    May 18, 2013

    @Gail

    Fajr & maghrib are two of the 5 prayer times. Fajr is the morning prayer and it is the time of day that the sky just starts to lighten in the morning but BEFORE the sun actually comes up. Maghrib is opposite. Maghrib starts when the sun falls below the horizon. happy

  • Tina

    May 18, 2013

    Hi All,

    I have been reading your posts for quite some time and am finding it very helpful. I am going to become a second wife to a Pakistani man whose first wife is also Pakistani.. I am Christian and live in Canada.. The man I am marrying has lived in Canada for about 20 years and his first wife came over to Canada about 4 years ago. I am the same age as the man I am marrying, 45 and his first wife is younger 29, they have one young child. I have been researching the pros and cons of Polygamy, ways to live, problems that may be encountered, etc. I will be living apart for the first couple of years and he will be sharing his time, but after that we all hope to plan and live together.. strike that he plans for us all to live together. I know his first wife isn’t crazy about the idea of her husband having a second wife, even though he made it clear before they married that he wanted multiple wives.. so I do want to be very respectful of her anxiety and concerns. I just wanted to say I enjoy reading this blog and feel it will be a useful place to come and learn from all of your experiences..Tina

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Leigh,
    I personally am not muslim and don’t know what that thing is u are talking about.I get that it is time for the individual wives but what are the exact times u are talking.Do u mean night till morning like this?Sundown to sunup?Just curious as my own hubby is muslim and he never said anything about it.

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Sarata,
    If hubby is speaking another language to cowife then take my advice and try to learn that labguage if u don’t it’s going to screw u up mentally because I been there and done that.I never had an issue with my husband speaking Punjabi when we first married but when the truth came out OH BOY!! Now it bothers me more than I can express.Excowife played games and toyed with me and hubby because I didn’t know Punjabi.She got her rocks off on it.that was one of my demands that we all speak in English so I could understand since they both spoke English well after she started showing her A$$ she told hubby she can’t understand english well enough to chat yet she has only chatted with me for the last 10 years in english go figure.I told hubby she was lying and doing it so I would not understand what they talked and he wouldn’t translate alot of times and I was like what is she saying etc..I got so sick to death of it really fast and started holding grudges against him and still to this day it has the same effect on me even he is speaking to his parents.NOPE it has made me mental because of all his lies and he hid all his lies through his Punjabi language.So my advice is learn the language or go MADDDD!!!

    Kim,
    I honestly see myself in you.The polygamous life u are desiring was also my same desire.I truly wanted it to work.In my case excowife is never coming back because hubby will never accept her back because his sister is getting divorced from cowife brother and has turned into a family fued the size of the Hatfields and Mcoys boy what a mess and my inlwas are in so much tension.SO much so I feel I need to distance myself from them.OH MY they are 24/7 in tension.
    One thing I am learning though is that life rarely turns out the way u plan it.I planed for a great life with my hubby and I was awesome when we first got married but now today I am like who gives a crap do what u want.Hubby and I stayed up all night talking and bickering and it all started over a flat tire and him not putting his tire changer in the vehicle because 3 days before we had a flat tire and he didn’t have the tire changer.So naturally I was angry because we went to eat and well we got to the parking lot of CHili’s but we didn’t eat because of the tire issue.Ruined our entire night .That was not the real issue though as I am feeling now liked a cage bird by husband and I have told his as much I am holding a grudge against him to be honest because of my dear friend and first love.I want so much to reach out to him and make certain he is ok and that he didn’t think I played with his emotions.It is so important to me that he knows I would never do that with him but because of my husband and his lack of understanding towards my personal issue I am less than cordial with hubby these days.My husband is not understanding or caring about the most important person in my life and yeah it really is weighing on me very hard.I don’t expect my husband to care but why on earth if I have given my word that I would never cheat on him why would he make such a fuss for me to reach out to my first love esp after his polygamy episode.
    In my case with my first love I adore him I have always adored him.He is the only person in my entire life that has opened up to em and shared himself totally with me.People need different things in their lives and for me I need and desire an honest person in my life.R is and always has been that person for me.I don’t know if it is wrong to love another man as much as I do R but the reality is I do love R so much and I care about him so deeply in a platonic way of course.Some days It feels like I can’t breath and I was only born to live a caged life.I see R as my freedom in this life my glorious freedom.I wonder what freedom really feels like.I was a complete idiot to deny him and not meet him.What I wouldn’t give to see his face.Life is very cruel sometimes.

  • Sarata

    May 18, 2013

    @Kim I hear you re the bipolar thing lol!
    I was wishing we could all be seperate so that when he’s with co I can try the “out of sight out of mind” thing. So I could prepare for my time. Knowing when he’d be around and when he wouldn’t.
    I don’t do spontaneity very well.
    All living together will be nice In’shaa Allāh once I’ve got used to the idea maybe.
    But how it will be now is, when he’s not at work he will be around. Regardless of whose night it will be. If he’s outside I’ll be wondering where he’s going – here or there.
    Where we live people spend a lot of time outside and you can hear people chatting etc.
    Already when he’s in the phone I’m wondering of its to her – crazy I know what diff does it make to me?! But I don’t know the language well enough to grasp whole conversations yet – another paranoia trigger I’ve found that has never bothered me until now.

    Anyway, I’m guessing that Allahs plan is to throw me right in at the deep end it must be what’s best for us In’shaa Allāh.

    My head vs heart is the other way round from u I think lol.
    My heart wants it to be me & hub as its been for the past 8 years. Same dreams and plans for out happy little family.
    But my heads saying don’t be selfish this could all work out lovely. Submit to Allahs will and have a happy family – In’shaa Allāh head, In’shaa Allāh! laughing

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    Asalaam Aleikum Leigh,

    I’m aware of the Maghrib to Fajr time division but we never followed it by mutual agreement. Work schedules and life in general just didn’t accommodate it and I never wanted M to feel like he had to punch a time clock in and out between N and me. At the beginning, yes we were pretty possessive of “our time”, days as well as nights, but it was impossible to accommodate that and after a few issues we relaxed.

    I remember one HUGE fight they had when his daughter was in town and wanted to come for dinner at my house during one of N’s days. N demanded M pay her back (or I pay her back) that time, even though it was only a few hours of an evening. That was when he told her straight up his days are HIS and he can be wherever he likes. Near that time N was transferring apartments and moved during one of my days and he went to help her.

    She expected I’d explode and when I didn’t she was nonplussed, but it motivated her to chill out except one time I worked at the restaurant during the day on the day he was going to come to me for our nights, and N saw me there. Holy COW. That was the first and only time she mentioned “Maghrib” as the cut-off time, that he was hers til Maghrib, after which he was to be on my time so why was I at the restaurant when she dropped him off. Even though he was going to work anyway so they wouldn’t be together, she was really upset.

    THAT is the kind of crap I deeply desire to avoid, and I assume N does too this time around from what she has told me and M himself. M, well, obviously, as the rope in this insane tug of war, wants no part of this sort of thing. He goes to N when he goes. He comes home when he comes home. That’s it.

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    @Gail,

    Thanks for the encouraging words. I feel good about things. Sure I have my moments (see: above, regarding head vs. heart) but at the end of the day I know I won’t go anywhere. It’s hard, but nothing worth fighting for is easily obtained. I agree, had your hubs and ex-co stayed together, I think you all would have found a way for it to work for all of you. I understand you feel some regret or guilt about it not working out, and now you wonder what could have been.

    I found myself there when I first asked M if he thinks about N, which is what set their reunion in motion. I should feel blessed that I have the opportunity to find out “what could have been”. I might feel some regret opening my mouth in the first place, but it obviously was destined to happen sooner or later. So here it is and here we are happy

  • Kim

    May 18, 2013

    Asalaam Aleikum dear Sarata,

    You said a mouthful…”as much as you wish things to be different, you keep trying, masha Allah”. You are SO right. The crux of the matter is HOW I want things different.

    This is where bipolar Kim comes out to play, where the heart and the head are at crossroads. You see, during M’s “time off” from N, I tried to re-embrace monogamy, but you know what, it was hard. Really hard. The irony is that yes, polygamy was battle royal, whether between M and me, M and N, or me and N. I didn’t know which way was up sometimes and all I wanted was for things the way they used to be. But with time, and with M proving he was not leaving me for her and kept everything as fair and just as possible with dividing time and income and all that, I eventually got used to it, to the point it became routine. I was settling in. And then BAM, they split and he was back with me fulltime. I was like whoaaaaa now…and the readjustment was really REALLY tough.

    Eventually, monogamy became, well, “monotony” and I found myself missing the things polygamy had brought to my marriage. Excitement at seeing M, the anticipation of his return home, the enjoyment of our time together. The difficulties/insecurity/anxiety/anger at times/jealousy (let’s call it what it is, shall we?) that came with all that sort of faded into unimportance. His back and nerve problems got worse, and I found myself having to really bite my tongue with impatience with his moods. My…well…desire for “the do” dwindled again to pretty much nothing. And yes, as much as N and I had a warm/icy on and off relationship, I truly did wonder how she was doing, opened my mouth about it to M and the rest is history.

    SO…I’m back in the crazy polygamy game, or headed that way at least, and my moods and attitude are back to that mercurial up and down and all around. Much of it stems on if N and I communicate or not – I pinned that down, and WHAT we communicate about. I love the idea of the three of us hanging out together as a family, which is what I’d always wanted should I find myself ever in polygamy. I hate the dividing wall. I hate the cutting off and the pressure on M about phone calls and all that nonsense. It’s just not how I roll.

    I hate when he feels put on the spot by either of us. Like last night, I go to the store with my son and when I get back he’s on the phone with her. He tells me she called. No problem. I paid his cell phone bill this morning after they texted him that it’s past due (forgot to pay it yesterday) and when I go to his account his call history comes up. He called HER, when he’d said she’d called him. Why lie? There’s absolutely zero need and I don’t want him to feel like he has to. Ugh.

    I hate the comparison charts and scorecards and I never want them back in my life again. I’m so done with that. On more than one occasion last year she’d complain or I’d complain that he was spending more time on the phone with the other. I went so far as to print out a month’s worth of call history and ADD UP THE MINUTES he spent on the phone with each of us. Yeah, it was that bad. I feel sometimes the temptation to go there again, which is ridiculous because he’s with me an overwhelming amount of time so of course he’s on the phone with her more. Sheesh.

    Anyways…I’m rambling on like a fool. Just know Sarata that everything you’re feeling is normal, good co, bad co, good hubs, bad hubs, the feelings happen. They’re much easier to deal with when you all are in it together without the walls up, and can be open, honest, and communicate accordingly with all parties.

    It often is, as in my case, a battle of the head and the heart. When the head says one thing and the heart says another, you feel that internal tug of war going on. I know that one all too well. That’s been the jihad of polygamy for me. My heart keeps me with M no matter what happens. My heart wants a wonderful friendship with N. My head is battling the entire thing. It’s exhausting…the heart and head need to come to terms with each other and with Allah’s help they will get there happy

  • Leigh

    May 18, 2013

    As salaamu alaikum ladies,

    Just wanted to chime in about division of time.

    Some of you had mentioned your husbands not being there for important events because it was the Co’s day. I remember during the midst of my polygamy journey I was reading like crazy and I came across something. I can’t remember exactly but I think it was sahih bukhari. It said that in regards to dividing nights to the wives the nights are from maghrib to fajr and that is the time that is designated to the wives. So from fajr to maghrib the husband doesn’t have an obligation to any particular wife. He’s free to do whatever he wants basically. Just like the prophet Muhammad use to visit all his wives during the day and then spend the nights with whoever a night it was. So there’s no Islamic reason for the husbands to have to miss and special occasion that falls between fajr and maghrib. Obviously as polygamous wives its easier said then done because we feel like our “nights” also includes the daytime depending on how you divide your own schedule. We make things more difficult on ourselves when we demand the days Belong to us as well. I’m guilty of it as well. We don’t celebrate birthdays ourselves, only the two EIDs but if its an issue in your family then maybe that can help. A father shouldn’t be torn between his wives and his kids. It may be more difficult in the winter when the days are shorter and maghrib comes in earlier but if the cowives seek peace they will work together to make the kids happy. happy if anyone needs me to look up and provide proof of what I’m saying ill try to look it up for you inshallah. happy

  • Sarata

    May 18, 2013

    @Kim
    Yeh I’m sure it must be worse with an manipulative co or a useless husband – Alhamdulillah mine are neither! 
    But if she were horrid or he was inconsiderate and rubbish – at least I’d have some actual reason to direct my negative emotions at. 
    As it is – they are both amazing people so I think I’m turning my stress inward if that makes sense? Kind of blaming myself, beating myself up about being such a bad person having all these negative feelings. 
    But I know it’s Normal and now that I’m a bit less of a blubbering wreck, I can start to fight it. 
    I know this is exactly what shaytan wants so I’m not having it. 
    At the end of the day,  it’s not even about hub&Co – it’s about me & Allah so of shaytan thinks he can push me away from my rabb he is mistaken! *insert lioness roar here* (ok, maybe more Simba from Lion King – but u get me right? hee hee

    @Gail
     I may well end up in those cosy little situations you describe. (occasionally maybe, once we’re all more used to the situ.)
    We quite often go places together already. 
    To be fair to her though, as torturous as it may be for me when he’s spending quality time with her – I dont want to give up all my alone times with hub so I won’t expect her to either. 
    It’s a shame your polygamous experience didn’t work out tho – it sounds like the ex would have had a great cowife in you! (as long as she realised that obv, the Pakistani culture, over there at least, sounds a bit mental lol!)
    I have many Pakistani friends in the uk but jeez they are nothing like some of the families I’ve read about on this blog! 
    I have the issue of being the “foreigner” here a little – but nothing really negative – just misconceptions about how much money we have etc. many people assume I’m Arab before they meet me (because i wear hijab but have pale skin) – so they are confused  once they realise I’m English lol!
    Thanks again for the support & the virtual “Snap out of it girl” slaps that I needed lol! big grin

    @Aishah
    I hope your hub shapes up for the birthday situations. Does ur co have kids? Times like this it’s beneficial to get along with co I imagine. 

    @Kim 
    I agree with Gail – you sound like an amazing person and as much as you may prefer things to be different you always keep trying Mashallah!

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Aishah,
    All is going well for u I hope.

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Kim,
    I have to say I am very proud of you.I really like your enduring personality.I think if u hang in there and keep strong u and M and N will make it.I know it’s hard but u sure have a great personality and I really have faith in your that u will succeed.Had my polygamous marriage worked out I would had kept trying with her like u are doing with N.As my sweet Grandmother use to say You have to take the bitter with the sweet!
    Glad u got your check.

  • Gail

    May 18, 2013

    Sarata,
    If I had to live the lifestyle u are describing I would not be able to live it in all fairness.
    We never practiced polygamy where the wives are separated and hubby gives each wife individual time.I would never agree to practice polygamy that way.Thats just not my cup of tea.
    We were one family unit and we acted as a one family unit we all watched T.V together talked together and hung out together.For me that the only way I would ever be able to practice polygamy because I told my husband I would never share him I would rather divorce than loose half my time esp when it was not my fault and he had lied to me about cowife no thank you.I know muslims do it different but my husband and cowife were both muslims and they both agreed with my demands.
    Even living the one family system was hard make no mistakes about it but it was a heck of a lot nicer than having to split time to be honest.Now granted this is just me but why not go and sit and relax with hubby and cowife and enjoy watch a movie spend all your time together as a unit until u sleep only at bedtime since u are muslims then hubby go with one wife is that not so much easier.I say come up with some unique ways that are going to make u happy.Be original.Just because everyone else has separate times don’t mean u have to do the same unless u want to of course.
    I am glad u are feeling better today.You really are lucky u know to have such a wonderful cowife.I know u have emotions all over the place and believe me when I tell u if you didn’t have these crazy emotions I wouldn’t think u were human.Also don’t be crazy in comparing yourself to your cowife.Everyone has their own qualities and are special and unique in their own way so you have nothing to worry about as far as she is better than u etc…Everything will be fine u will see.

  • Kim

    May 17, 2013

    Asalaam Aleikum sis Aishah,

    Ah yes, the dreaded special occasions we have to fanangle into things, or THEY (the husbands) have to fanangle into things. Been there. Done that. I was pretty twisted out of shape that M was with N on his birthday, my older son’s birthday and my youngest son’s birthday last year. N got twisted because apparently his and my Nikah (we were legally married years before we had Nikah) was somewhere near her daughter’s birthday, and that Sunday was some kind of event he didn’t attend because of it. Well, he was on my time anyway, but yeah.

    IMO…this is only my opinion and I know in your situation it won’t work having it as a “joint family” type of thing, is that the dad should make time to spend with the kids on their birthdays. Even if it isn’t your night. Last year, for my youngest’s birthday, M arrived with N and they picked up my son and took him to get him some gifts, letting him pick out stuff, got ice cream, etc. It wasn’t the perfect solution by any means….had N and I been friendly, we could have had a party or something together. I did invite her up, through M, but she declined. Oh well, I tried.

    I’ve told M a few times because he has a memory for dates like a sieve, that my older son’s high school graduation is June 2, and he’d best be there, no matter whose night it is. He assured me he would be. I’ll have to remind him a few more times as the date gets closer though tongue

  • Kim

    May 17, 2013

    Asalaam Aleikum,

    @ Gail & J: Yeah we had a nice talk, still are kind of addressing things as the evening progresses, but now that my youngest is home from playing football with his cronies we had dinner and chilled. I did come to a pretty clear conclusion, though…the ONLY way I will be able to do this again is if we’re truly a team. As in, N and I work hard at building our own relationship besides that which binds us, unwittingly or no (M). When she and I talk and laugh together on the phone, or I offer her advice on work issues or cooking or whatever, we’re great. When M comes up, I want to run screaming (depending of course on the context in which he comes up). Meaning, if she starts bringing up his past stuff or their past stuff or some real or imagined crisis they’re having, nuh-uh. I bow out quick.

    N has not been calling when I’m home or awake and that bugs, because we all 3 agreed the phone call issue needs not be an issue. If she wants to call and talk to him, by all means, whether I’m here or not, and maybe I’d like to say hello. So today I left her a voicemail to that effect, saying I hadn’t talked to her in a few days, how are you, etc….reaching out so it’s clear I’m trying.

    Sarata, either what you’re feeling is perfectly normal; at least I think so, because I’ve had every single last one of those feelings. Isn’t it funny….a bad co-wife is a thorn in our side (but the benefit, if you want to call it that, is that if WE keep it together, we’re the one who looks good), but a good co-wife can be an equal thorn in our side ( she’s better than me, he’ll prefer being with her, blah blah blah). So yeah….all that and more, you’re feeling everything I have/am. It’s a tough road but one that has been traveled and you can make it, I know you can happy

    @J, not all the current tension is related to M/N/me. It’s some long past stuff of mine that’s come back and M is having a tough time with it. But we’re getting through it, insha Allah. It’s something I kept from him our entire relationship but necessity made it such that I had to open up about an extremely painful year of my life and the effects of it. That’s all I can say right now.

    @Gail, as I said, the talk’s gone well. I’ve had a few episodes of frustration, and it is SO hard to keep “my place” when I hear stuff that pisses me off. He had to tell me like 4 or 5 times, “I am handling it, ok???” Fine….I just don’t want patterns of “N says jump M says how high” happening again. It infuriates me. (N’s tendency to be possessive is what that’s about, possessive and controlling). It doesn’t affect me whatsoever…she’s not controlling ME, so he’s right that I shouldn’t get upset…’course he shouldn’t tell me some things, either LOL… Oh and I got my paycheck – in paper form. Some dude ran it over to the worksite so I’m good Alhamdulillah happy

  • Aishah 2013

    May 17, 2013

    May birthday month not Mitsubishi

  • Aishah 2013

    May 17, 2013

    Salaams to all.to the newbies to this way of life its all normal to have those feelings.with time and prayer it subsides to a degree and you get so much stronger.doesn’t mean that there are not still roller coaster emotional times.I am kind of having some now.Mitsubishi month of kids birthdays..I have kinda finetuned flexed the schedule so that he is here on their nights (by flexed I mean I have given some up worked with it so that I don’t have to ask for my kids dad to be with them then.that kinda sounds crazy!!but last year was horrendous he wasn’t around on their birthdays (I wrote Co a note and he delivered it requesting his presence those nights so they both played it wrong.we hadn’t remet and done schedule at that time.I thought they were both very selfish.kids were crying upset.I have definitely told him he can’t do again I wont let it happen to them again…so I feel like my sometimes post traumatic stress kind of feeling like it was so bad painful and don’t wanna have it happen again!

  • Sarata

    May 17, 2013

    @J 
    Jazak-Allahu khayran for the 
    Yeh we have been a bit quiet lately. I spoke to her about the situation last week (before my mini meltdown) and I explained that I have my little issues so if I’m ever a bit quiet it will be nothing personal – just me battling my naffs & shaytan. (&If she ever says / does anything to offend me I’ll address it with her.)
    She understands. She knows it’s part of her culture and not strange for her and that it’ll take some getting used to. We resolved to pray to Allah to help us down this rd. 
    She’s a really great person Mashallah but that kind of adds to my jealousy lol!
    She’s always been great with my son – he totally loves her. It’s nice in a way that she’s always gonna be around – once I’ve got past all this emotional nonsense anyway!

    @Gail
    I know you are right. I’ve snapped out of it a bit today Alhamdulillah. 
    Firstly I would never mistreat my co wife. She’s my good friend and a beautiful person. 
    I have already explained to her that I’m struggling a lot more than I expected – but that In’shaa Allāh is something I have to work through and nothing personal about her.
    I think my main issue is the thought of sitting at home while my hubs is up at her apartment (we have apartments on our rooftop)
    The thoughts of him relaxing up there with her having a lovely time while I’m downstairs stewing is what’s eating me I think. 
    It’s not even about sex so much (although that does light a fuse lol!) more about imagining the way he is with me (lovely) with someone else. 
    It’s not like I can even go out anywhere & take my mind off it as my toddler sleeps after sunset so I’m kinda trapped in the same vicinity which is hard for me to deal with. At 1st especially. Plus I don’t have the support network like I had in the uk do I feel kind of isolated. 

    I’m aware that this depressed state isn’t / can’t be permanent – I’m really trying to fix up. It’s just hard when ur self esteem is taking a bashing!
    Also, I prev thought I had my feelings somewhat under control – so all this emotional stuff caught me off guard completely!
    I’m not a dramatic or overly jealous& emotional person usually – and I def don’t want to become one!
    Maybe getting all this out of my system means I’ll be a bit more prepared when the marriage is actually finalised! (any day now)

    I do love the idea of us all being a team – I know for many with difficult co wives it’s an impossible dream – so I am grateful for my blessings despite my current state! x

  • Gail

    May 17, 2013

    How is everyone doing I thought I would check in and see how everyone is doing.I am assuming Ana is off enjoying her anniversary and we know Jenny is off doing her thing to get preggers!

    J,
    I also like SUV’s they are really nice .

    Kim,
    I hope your talk with hubby clears the air for the both of u and u get your paycheck in your account soon.

    Sarata,
    You need to sit down and seriously start giving thought to what your emotional distress is all about.If it is simply the thought of not wanting to share you are going to have to force yourself to get past that and be really hard on yourself.It is not going to serve u any purpose to keep hanging on to this negative emotion.You need to concentrate and get that emotion out of your body to be frank because it is like a cancer that is going to eat away at you.
    Why do u not want cowife around you?Because you can’t emotionally handle it.What can u not emotionally handle you are a grown adult u know what men and woman do and what do u think by keeping her away from u thats going to magically change your circumstance REALLY?If your cowife is good with you then why on earth would u mistreat her?would u want the same thing done to you if u were her?It really is a choice you will have to make to either rise above your emotions and do what is right or throw it away.Most people throw the cowife away and just act as if they are not part of their life but I really can’t see how cowives do this to each other.
    Ok try for awhile to think positive thoughts and try something for me.You are already miserable so try this idea if u can and see how u feel.Think of what it would be like if u and hubby and cowife could hang out together go out to eat and all three of u enjoy each other company make plans for the future together and be one amazing team working together and replacing all your negative emotions with positive ones.
    Think can I let go of my Control Issues and let co have some control about what goes on in the family unit in what are the positives in letting her have some control without becoming angry understand.
    This is just another way that u can look at your life.It is a good way and sensible way and a G.D fearing positive way to look at things.Granted I am not a Muslim but could it just be possible that instead of looking at Polygamy as a some trial or test of faith you should be looking at it as a major blessing in your life.You will have another woman beside you to talk with about family maters help u and encourage you and u can be the same for her.It just a thought.Honestly to me it is just crazy to agree with Polygamy then don’t want nothing to do with your co thats like cutting your own throat if she is a good person.
    Granted their are not good cowifes and sometimes it might be better to take a time out from them but it is never in my opinion to just write people off or be emotionally indifferent towards them.Now I am not saying be an idiot and let a foreign cowife serve u or abuse u but instead use your head and figure out how to achieve goals slowly when it comes to a nasty cowife.After all u have plenty of time to work things out.A lifetime to be exact.

  • J

    May 17, 2013

    Oh boy I was about to say the same thing it was a little bit quite here, I was so used to seeing a whole bunch of comment everyday and reading lol!!

    Alhamdulillah

    Thank you everyone for writing back, am having a pretty good so far i did not wake up with a whole bunch of sadness.

    Kim

    ***HUG received and appritiated lol***hope your talk with M goes well, what with the tension?? All this stuff is his problems, he better figure them out. I figure they get into to this, they need to deal with it and make it work. It is not our jobs to make everything easy for them. Its there resposibilty.

    Sarata

    Jazakillah khair, I will keep you in my duaa as well and everyone here inshaAllah. ppssh girl I know right I dont want my co next to me either but I also dont want hub far away. this sucks. has your future co said anything to you? or are you guys on the quite side lately?? you are already very strong for being okay with her being around your child mashaAllah. Am telling you wake up and remember Allah much, and make your self look awesome not like your out to a wedding lol but simple and beautiful and do it for yourself your going to feel better. I do at least. and trust me it will get your hubs attention lol

    Ka126

    Yup dealing with all these personalities is hard, thats why its better just not to deal with co’s at all and keep it all the talking to a minimum, especially when the other person only has bad intentions. InshaAllah may Allah ease your heart happy Are you upset about your hub not taking steps for no more kids because you think he will have them with co?

    Aisha2013

    InshaAllah I will be going back for the first part of the interview and I hope everything goes well. woohooo. If i get this job I hope we will be able to purchase a new car. A seven seat like a nice SUV i love big cars lool

  • Arica

    May 17, 2013

    @KA126, I am not sure if you are a convert or not, I can’t remember. I think that you are mixing up some Islamic words. Sunnah and Halal. I have wanted to comment before regarding this. Please don’t be offended , things can be confusing! Trust me I learn lots everyday. Sunnah is living the way the Prophet (SWS) did. Doing things he did. For a man it can be having a beard or wearing your pants short so that they don’t cover your ankles. Things like this. You mentioned living with your cowife being Sunnah, as far as I know, this is not Sunnah. Please someone correct me if i am wrong. The Prophets wives did not live together. It is halal if the wives agree to this living arrangement, but again it is not Sunnah as this is not how the Prophet (SWS) lived. But it is not forbidden (harram) for them to live together.

    You asked is it Sunnah for you to stop relations with your husband. You really mean is it Halal, meaning allowed in Islam. Halal is something that Allah says is something we are allowed in general terms.

    Please again don’t be offended and inshallah i gave you correct information. If anyone else knows better please correct me on this happy

  • Kim

    May 17, 2013

    J, Asalaam Aleikum, ((((HUGS)))))

    I hope you’re doing better now. You’re gonna have days like this, for awhile. and Insha Allah your ease comes soon.

    It’s been very quiet here all of a sudden! What’s up sisters?

    We’re chugging along (lol Ana)…things are ok. There’s tension with M and I but he wants to talk after I get home from work tonight. Insha Allah we can, and do so quietly and clear the air. I hate this tension. It’s a lot of stuff, not just or really N but of course that situation factors into my mindset. He and I will be ok insha Allah, it’s just a number of things heaping up on our plate. *sigh* Always something.

    So to top off this lovely week of overtime, my pay never hit my bank account today. Oh yeah, I love working, and putting in mandatory overtime, for FREE. Someone better come up with some cash and fast. I checked the temp agency’s website in the employee e-pay section and it says “service unavailable”. FIGURES! Grrrrrrr.

  • Sarata

    May 17, 2013

    @J
    Sister I know completely how you’re feeling. And I’m not even fully into the situation yet!
    I told hub I don’t wanna live in the same compound as co – I don’t even wanna be in the area.
    Yes she’s my friend but I can’t deal with with this horrible feeling on a daily basis – but Allah give me patience as it appears I don’t actually have a choice! sad

    I too have been reluctant to call my mum on Skype. She’s grieving and needs all the support she can get but if she thinks there’s something wrong she’ll be worried and she really doesn’t need anything else to worry about right now.
    Plus I’m gonna have to tell her about the situation eventually and she will never be able to believe I’m ok with it if she was to see me now (even if In’shaa Allāh one day I actually am!)

    When I make dua for patience for myself I will make dua for you also.

    I’ve never had much patience but lately my gosh it’s at minus figures!
    I just keep thinking of the one situation that could possibly be worse than this for me and am grateful that situation is not my test. There’s always something worse you could go through.
    But I already feel I’m failing this one before its really begun.

    I’m so grateful for Ana’s blog to vent and talk to people who really understand – May Allah guide & reward us all ameen xx

  • Gail

    May 17, 2013

    KA126,
    Don’t worry so much if it helps pretty much everyone here has been in your shoes one time or the other so u are not alone in your frustrations towards cowife.Believe me when I tell you she will figure out sooner or later.I think most cowives don’t like sharing and it is a secret war between one cowife to the other or between both.I know in my case it was my cowife against me but in all truthfulness I was also ugly back to her a few times also.It really is so silly looking back on it and may G.D forgive me for my silliness towards her.Just because cowife was acting vulgar towards me I should never have let my emotions overcome me.I really do believe if one can’t keep their emotions in check it will lead a person to sin and do acts they would not under normal circumstances do.
    I will say this I was very very good to always tell on my cowife’s face any wrong doing she was up to in front of my husband.I used the truth as my weapon of choice.
    Also don’t worry about keeping yourself guarded around cowife and watching what u say.As long as u are truthful she can’t use anything against you.My rule of thumb was anything I say to cowife I can say to hubby to his face.Never once had a fight with hubby over anything I ever said to cowife even she tried to twist things alot of times but hubby always asked me on her face.Honesty is the best policy.
    KA126 my hubby and cowife were married 3 years before I came into the picture.When hubby married me I had 0% chance we would last.He assumed before day one that the day I found out about him and excowife I would divorce him so he was prepared.Strangely She started out on 100% and I on 0% and she was his cousin to top it off.She is now gone hubby divorced her and she is now on less that 0% and I am over 100%.Hubby said it was because he lost his trust on her over the years and gained his trust on me.I contribute it to my no lying and putting the family first policy.I hope this helps to encourage you.

  • KA126

    May 16, 2013

    Tonight I feel as if i should leave this marriage. The lies, deception, manipulation are taking a toll. My husband told me that he didn’t want anymore children and I embraced that opinion. Tonight I found out that he is not taking steps to not have children. This is just too much to handle. It also saddens me because he is a good man and a great father and fears Allah, but sometimes enough is enough. In sha Allah, Allah SWT will guide me to the correct path to take. Is it Sunnah to deny relations while I decide which path to take?

    @J, I know how you feel. I don’t want to share and even though this lifestyle is permissable, it saddens me to see the pain it causes. Also, the character and personaility of another within the relationship is very difficult.

  • Aishah 2013

    May 16, 2013

    Salaams.J I feel you.work hard to make some things about you..keep praying.plan something for you not just him or kids.set some goals to work towards so you don’t get stuck in a depressed rut.baby steps.don’t be harsh on yourself.find some things you like to read or watch on your time when he is not around.personally I would probably put your strongest face forward for your family…It is hard but after difficulty comes ease.it will get easier.maybe not all the time but maybe little bits at a time.yes go get the job!

  • J

    May 16, 2013

    .
    I spoke way too soon and feel even crappier now SubhaanAllah, He just went out and you know with who. Ugh this sucks. I know they wont be long together though because he has to go to school by 5. so whatever. Totally cried my eyes out while planting at least the plants got some watering lol. sad :’-( And ive been slacking in calling my parents on webcam because am afraid they will see my sadness cause you know parents know. Its been working out a bit because they have been busy remodelling there bathroom.
    Allah is with the patient and Difficulty brings ease.

  • J

    May 16, 2013

    Asalamu Alaykum everyone.

    I had my job test and I passed alhamdulillah, I have to come back for the first part of the interview next week. Am nervous. I feel happy and sad at the same time, makes me wish all this was happening under different circumstances, I love being a stay at home, but I just keep thinking that I need to get on my feet too we dont know what the future holds and if god forbid something were to happen to hub, no one is going to help.
    Its like everything is going pretty well and yet I still cry so much, I think he hasnt seen co in like two weeks am not sure why, and it hurts because I know soon he will and these sad feelings just keep lingering and wont go away. sad I dont want to share

  • Leigh

    May 15, 2013

    @Fatima

    I’m here lol. I read everything just haven’t posted. Things are pretty calm around here for now mashallah. I feel like I flipped a switch a few weeks ago. I had been very angry and annoyed with DH and just all around moody. But then one day I just wasn’t anymore. Not sure why but I’m liking it. I feel happy lately mashallah even though nothing has actually changed except for my additude about it. And I’ve already planned out my big grande acceptance speech for if and when there is a new #2 lol. He’s still coming home late sometimes but I’m not letting the negative feelings linger anymore alhamdulilah. If I’m still awake when he gets home late I just pretend I’m asleep lol. But lately he’s been giving me a kiss on my cheek when he thinks I’m
    Asleep happy. May not seem like much but it is for me. Otherwise nothing much is happening. I did however start working out again and I could Barely walk today lol. I was doing some butt exercises lol and when I was done everytime I took a step my legs felt like jelly. And I can barely walk up the one step from my driveway lol. It’s a good pain though happy. Hope everything is going well with you.

  • KA126

    May 15, 2013

    @Gail and Kim,

    Thank you so much for the advice. I will definitely put it into practice in sha Allah. I will make sure not to concentrate on her antics and confront her in front of Habibi when she tries to manipulate. In sha Allah that will bring an end to it. My husband told her that he would ask her sister to move in with her. But if she can’t go there, she will have to go back to Ghana. Miraculously, I started getting sweet calls from her, lol…. I keep saying to myself “I see you honey”. My husband also said he will stop showing us affection in the presence of each other. I told him whatever…. The conspiracy to get rid of me started in Ghana, but tell her I’m not going anywhere.

  • Kim

    May 15, 2013

    @Gail,

    The thing is, M is a great cook. He used to have dinner on when I’d get home if he was home during the day. Of course all I can think about is that he cooked for HER last night (to be fair, SHE burns water) so he isn’t about to do the same here because…….? I don’t know.

    Now he’s off in the bedroom just laying down. Wanting to be alone, apparently. I’m happy to oblige, unlike someone else who shall not be mentioned…she’d be trippin’ like there’s no tomorrow….. but annoyed is an understatement. He can bop over there and have these marathon conversations, cooking nice little meals together, and other stuff I prefer not to think about, then drag his butt home and turn off and tune out. Yeah, right, I’m perfectly peachy with all that. NOT. But in the mood I’m in He’s better off there tongue

  • Gail

    May 15, 2013

    Kim,
    I hope things get better for u soon.I know it is really hard to work long shifts then come home and hubby not have a meal fixed.My hubby would burn water so I have been there and done that same like u in the past and it was tiring to say the least.

  • Gail

    May 15, 2013

    Sabrina,
    Yes the oldest sister normally comes up or the oldest brothers wife whichever is the oldest and in the home.Also u are correct she would have agreed to the marriage because it was beneficial to her needs.You will see in the future she will ask hubby to take her sons and she will expect her brother to give them jobs or help them get jobs in your country.All this is normal Paki behavior.
    Obviously it is to her benefit if your husband never has sons because her sons will receive more property since your husband doesn’t have a son.Strange concept I know but thats Paki peoples mentality.The girls go to their husbands homes after marry and most Pakis live joint family.Legally sons get more that daughters according to Paki law as far as I am aware.Boy if only u knew then what u know know right!!! LOL

  • Gail

    May 15, 2013

    KA126,
    Listen if u have gold or anything of value u don’t want stolen then u better get it to a bank lock box or purchase a safe otherwise don’t dry when something comes up missing.Don’t trust that she won’t steal it.My cowife took so much from me.before I knew her and hubby were practicing polygamy with me her sister was getting married and obviously cowife family is very poor so with them being poor cowife mentioned to me that gold is costly and her family don’t have money so I gave her my own marriage gold worth thousands of dollars as a gift.My husband and MIL tried to stop me but I asked hubby if he disapproved and he said no so then I went and gave her in her hand.I really loved that gold set and thought I was doing a Mitzva/good deed but when the truth came out and they had lied to me about being islamically divorced I was disgusted with anger at how he could have let me give away my marriage gold.It was a bast@rd thing for my husband to do he should have had her give me back but he never.He also never replaced my Gold and I hold a grudge in my heart against him for that thing.
    My point is be very careful not to let her or your husband take advantage of u.

  • Kim

    May 15, 2013

    So I just got home from another 10 hour shift, with 2 more plus a 4 hour Saturday and Sunday (Sunday is optional) and then another week’s stretch ahead next week. I’m exhausted. M was home by the time I got here, which is nice, but I’m cranky and tired and sore. I spent all day climbing ladders and throwing 50+ pound cartons around for almost half of my former salary and am in NO mood.

    So when he started complaining that he couldn’t find a phone charger and that my oldest son must be hoarding them, THEN asked for tea, I got rather b*tchy. He’s tying his fishing flies and I’m sitting here stewing and brewing and wishing he was still at N’s. Ok maybe not, but you know what I mean. I was hoping he’d offer to cook dinner tonight so I could relax this evening. Nope guess not. And I know why….because he had to cook dinner at N’s last night. Instead he said “you don’t have to make a curry, just whatever’s easy.” Yeah, because he made yakhni at N’s. And didn’t bring any home.

    Sabr, Sabr. SABR….*sigh*

  • Gail

    May 15, 2013

    KA126,
    OK Listen u always have a 50/50 chance of your cowife being good or bad.Now u know the truth that she has been acting nice only to get to USA and now that she is here she doesn’t have to pretend as much anymore.Everything is still fine don’t worry.All u need to do is keep your finances separate and have hubby support her on his own.
    KA126 u can’t make your husband see cowife for what she is anymore than u can make a blind man see understand?This is one thing I figured out the hard way so please do not waist any time or energy or your breath in screaming at him about her.Your husband will only think u r jealous and write off 99.9% of what u say.It really is like talking to a brick wall in my opinion.SOOO now that u know the real truth about her you will seriously need to only let hubby or u deal with the finances with cowife and not both of u.I would suggest you to let hubby do it and u keep your own money separate as that is the easy way but if u want to try to handle her yourself then thats ok to.Listen the way it works is very simple whichever one of u decides to deal her will need to make darn certain the other one never gives her money understand?Only one person is in charge to give her money and also put her on an allowance so she understands thats she has to make it last till u give again.This is the easy no tension way for u.Listen if she ask for more money never give it.She will be looking for a inch so she can squeeze a mile understand so I suggest u to not ever give her extra money in her hand other than her allowance.
    As far as the lies and manipulation this is also easy but seems really hard when your in the thick of it.You do not see cowife and what she is doing and all the lies she is telling you only see yourself and what u are doing.If she tells a lie u tell the truth.Will she dislike u for being truthful on her face Yeah of course but given time after she tries all her tricks and wits about her she will change or stay the same thing.Either way this is not your problem.You are only to be a light and set a good example and a rock.
    I went through this with my own cowife.My cowife was a class A liar and I am complete opposite and never lie.She tried the same crap lying to hubby on his face and hubby believed her over me why that is I don’t know and I don’t care because looking back I see it was a G.D thing.G.D was making showing my husband between the two of us.
    MY husband used to be a liar,cheater,steal u name it he did it but over the years with my convictions never to lie he changed.He changed so much that after only a few months he figured out that cowife had planned to destroy him by trying to force his hand to divorce me.
    KA126 never underestimate your own power.If u follow the laws that Allah/G.D has decreed and stand fast on them you will never come out a looser that much I can promise you.
    If she wants to leave let her if you are ok with that but do not financially support her in her decision and above all never ever let her tell a lie to you or your husband or anyone without you speaking up and telling the truth.
    Understand this if u suspect she is manipulating and cunning the same like my cowife was then be brave and put them together and tell her straight u don’t like manipulation and tell hubby right in front of her face that she told u straight she was moving out on her own.You never tried to get her to leave understand.A liar will always back down or change his words but a truth bearer words will always stay same.
    Also one more thing you need to be a little bit understanding for awhile and explain to her that there is no need to tell lies or play games.So many times in these low level countries they just really do not have good moral values and they play these games to get what they want.So try to understand this and explain this to her and let her know u are not against her but u will never accept any lies or games played with u.Everything takes time and now I can really say to you Dear KA126 Welcome to Polygamy!!!

  • Kim

    May 15, 2013

    Asalaam Aleikum Ka126,

    Oh dear….I was praying this would not be your reality sad I think your husband has been making an attempt to “save face”, and he knows darn well what his Ghana wife is up to. But after all the time and hassle and expense I’m sure it was to get her there to your home, he doesn’t want to admit that maybe it was a huge mistake to do so. Only Allah knows.

    I sure couldn’t do it…not in my own home. That territorial side of me is screaming at the very thought. If she was good, kind, honest, and wanting this to be a complete family unit as much as you and hubby, then it would be worth giving it our best combined effort. But not like this. Not with lies and manipulation and gameplaying. You’d think she’d want to blend as seamlessly as possible into the home and marriage, and embrace you for embracing her, and respect and love y’all’s husband. Ugh.

    That fake pregnancy thing sent alarm bells going off, because N did that in December. I can only pray that doesn’t happen again in our situation.

  • KA126

    May 15, 2013

    @Sarata

    My CoCo is from Ghana. She has been married to my husband for four years but for some reason, couldn’t get a Visa to get over here. Miraculously, after I married him, her Visa was approved in two days. Our living arrangement is a permanent one, at least that was what my husband thought. We thought that since her and I have been talking for so long that it would work. I offered this living arrangement because I believe it is best for the children to see their father everyday. Plus we are trying to live according to the Sunnah. My husband agrees. She is the only one that says she is fine with not seeing him all the time. However, it is different to speak, and be married to someone, long distance and to live with them every day. My husband thought that since she was poor and shy that it would be nice. After living together, I see her as a totally different person. I am starting to believe that she married my husband so someone would care for her and she could just lie around being lazy. Our family is made of workaholics, so I don’t know how that is going to fly.

    I spoke to my Habibi today about the situation. He perceived that I was being disrespectful to him by not telling him a lie and saying everything was Alhumdulillah. I told him that I have never lied to him and I wouldn’t start now. He needed to seriously think about the character of his wives. He can’t be this morally upstanding Man and have a dishonest wife. I have been traveling this week, he told me that she has been talking to him a lot while I’ve been gone. Explaining that she didn’t want to live in “MY” house that she wanted to live in one of “HIS” houses. He said he told her it wasn’t changing so deal with it or go back to Ghana, ALONE. So the attempted manipulating has continued. I told him that she will lie, cheat and steal to get rid of me even though I have been kind, loving and supportive of her from the beginning. I caught her going through my stuff when she thought no one was home. I told my husband that I would not stand for this fitnah and drama from her. He said he had some thinking to do.

  • Aishah 2013

    May 15, 2013

    Salaams all.all is same in world of Aishah.Jenny good luck with ivf.Fatima hi.KA126 if there is tension between you and Co and some gameplaying on her part I am sure he has some awareness of it.men seem to leave it to women first to do the smoothing over,before putting themselves in the middle..the man may want to blame it on women’s feelings and hormones…sure in initial stages of putting it all together it does LOL like everyman’sfantasy.look for your hub in a couple of weeks or months to say”I’m so exhausted..the running back and forth…(even a close distance)it seems to take a toll.their part of the test!lcould relate to your feelings Sarata..you think of the future and then how everything changed and nothing is a sure thing anymore.Maybe Gods lesson is that nothing in the future ever is a sure thing even tomorrow not guadranteed.well its one lesson there are many in this thing!!And by relate I mean yes I still feel that may sometimes..like when I look at kids pictures or think of when older ones(his) were young or when younger ones were adopted and born.Hmm then I gotta shake it and move forward.God knows why he put me here.

  • Sabrina

    May 15, 2013

    Salam @Jenny @Gail @Felicia

    The gun bit has been playing on my mind, when he was last in Pakistan I didn’t hear off him for abut 2 weeks, I thought he was just busy with cowife and kids. Then when I seen him he told me he had been in prison and paid to get out early. He then told me about the guns, he just said everyone has then ??? but then said he was illegal to have Russian guns and not US which don’t make sense to me a gun is a gun. He then said about showing me how to use one, no thank you. He wouldn’t tell me any more than that. I have heard about them putting seeds in the food to give u a bad stomach before, I work in Indian restaurants in UK as well and they have done that here. I only stated speaking to him properly yesterday I thought he was being quiet and he thought I was being moody.
    @ Jenny good luck with the IVF you must have a lot of energy to cope with the business and babies.
    @Gail after what cowife did, and all the planning with then all you handle it so well, don’t think I could cope with all that. With my husband its not is mother I will have to cope with but his eldest sister. His mother died 2001 his sister rules the roost. She was the one who gave her permission for us to marry, which I couldn’t understand at the time, now listening to your stories I think it was because she saw it as an opportunity to get to the west for her sons as well, and because my husband was supporting her as well and we both be earning meant more money being sent back home. She argued with him last time he was there over money and land, and she confessed to praying for him not to have sons. So I think they have not on speaking terms at the moment. I know last time he went back, he was told he must be a good business man to get me, so they give him more respect with business deals, a good business man what a way to think.

  • Sarata

    May 15, 2013

    @Ka126 re last post – I meant to say “maybe having a *lovely* cowife would have been a walk in the park” – not a Lowly one haha! (amazing how a typo can turn a normal sentence into something so different lol!)

  • Sarata

    May 15, 2013

    @Fatima – thanks.
    Yes In’shaa Allāh I hope it does pass soon.
    I foolishly thought I had my emotions under control – knowing in advance and being kind of part of the decision. I SO wasn’t ready for this.
    I was out of the country for over a month (supporting my mum as her hub passed away) That was quite draining obv and plus I’m continuously worried about her. So my reserves were at an all time low when I got back which doesn’t help I suppose.
    I’ve lost tonnes of weight an have spots all over my face like a teenager lol!
    Still waiting to hear when the wedding will be. Hubs may know but be reluctant to upset me as I’ve been a little unstable these past few day (understatement lol!)

    @KA126 (Sorry u prob already yard before but I’m not good at keeping track lol!) Is ur Co from another country? Was the plan that you all live together or is it meant to be temporary?
    Im here struggling with accepting who I would imagine the best possible cowife – I honestly don’t think I could handle one like yours! You must have amazing patience – I suppose we each have out own different tests. 
    Maybe a lowly cowife would have been a walk in the park for some of you stronger sisters – hence the nightmare Cowives? Only God knows I suppose!
    If it were me I would be having some serious discussions with hubs about her behaviour though. Or maybe a neutral person who ur hubs respects may be better to speak to him about it?

    @Jenny I’m keeping you in my prayers regarding your treatment. 
    I’ve just been reading back over some of your posts – and 
    @Gail’s too – Ana was right you are both really strong. Plus maybe your been in this P-game a while and built a think skin. Either way I will be happy if I even acquire half the strength you guys seem to have!

    I hope everyone’s ok and having a more emotionally stable week than me - Lol! big grin

  • ~Fatima~

    May 14, 2013

    Hello Everyone and Salams to all..
    Wow I am trying to catch up on here.. Had to back track a bit to see what was going on..
    @ Gail.. Hahahah you had me laughing about the toilet seat.. laughing Actually I have not replaced it yet.. its all bumpy in spots where the water had sat.. but I intend to replace it with one of those cushion toilet seats with fish on them as request from my two daughters… batting eyelashes batting eyelashes

    I have been sooooo busy lately.. My dear husband has opened yet another store and moi me will be working there and training new employees.. Its all good..
    I was scoping about the house to see what all sister in law might have Borrowed to take to India.. I found out she had asked to take the dvd player with her.. along with my exercise bike and my microwave which she loved.. but luckily she could not take these things with her.. hahah

    Household has been back to normal and I can walk around the house now as I please when the girls are gone and just me and hubby in the house,, we seem to have moments in the recliner and sometimes on the stairs.. lol .. but I wont go there.. dont tell anyone

    @ Ana.. how have you been Ana? how are things going along in your household these days?
    @ Sarata.. The depression mode will ease with time.. you will see.. so you hang in there… It will soon pass.. it always does..
    @ Leigh.. how are you and where are you?LOL Hope things are going ok with you..
    @ Hilly.. how are you sister? have the skype meetings decreased a bit? I hope you are feeling well these days.. Soon school will be out here.. The mornings now are more daylight when I walk with the girls to the bus since the time change ..so its not so dark..
    @ Jenny.. good luck to you again and hope all goes well on your side…
    Going to bed now.. a bit tired tonight.. (: l goodnightzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • KA126

    May 14, 2013

    Assalaamu alaikum Sisters,

    Well as you know, my CoCo is here and is living with us. Two hours in, the drama started!!!! My husband has told both of us that he has no desire to have more than the 6 children we have now. Well, two hours from the time she stepped in the house she announced to him that she was preganant. For 12 hours afterwards, my husband went back and forth trying to figure out how to deal with the announcement. It was a terrible time. The next morning he calls a family meeting to discuss it and she replies with “I was just kidding, I just wanted to see how you would react.” HUH… WHAT… that’s not a joke… that’s a straight up lie.Then I took her to the Masjid and she lies to the sisters that her child wasn’t hers. Two days later, I asked her if she had any money and once she said no, I gave her $50. I told my husband that I gave it to her, but she asked him for more money. He asked her if she still had the money I gave her and she said no. WHAT!!!! Last night she informs me that she has asked my husband to get her another place to stay because she feels “out of place”. She says my husband asked her to give him time, I then offered to help finance it. Come to find out I was manipulated big time and my husband thinks I was trying to get rid of her. WHAT!!!! Throughout our whole marriage, we have had sad times, but we have never argued. After this last incident, boy did we argue.

    To sum it all up… she has turned out to be a liar and a manipulator. She has caused more fitnah in this family in five days thwn I could ever had imagined. I understand that when the co wife causes problems, we should practice patience. Even though I love my family and husband tremendously, I don’t think being around someone with such low morals is what I want in my life. What is also bothering me is that my husband (someone who’s high morals is what attracted me in the first time) is blind to her antics and is accepting the lies without addressing it. And to top it all off, I feel like I am the bad person. Should I leave or deal with a liar in my life?

  • Gail

    May 14, 2013

    How is everyone today! I had to take my MIL to the doctor today for an x-ray on her lower back.Her Health is failing her liver is whack.She lives in tension over my husbands exwife.She talks about getting revenge all the time.It is funny because she thinks that excowife and her family are totally 100% wrong and she did nothing.Honestly it blows my mind.I am astounded that she would believe like that and fail to see her own short comings shall we say.She says she served excowife 10 years and excowife family didn’t serve her daughter even 1 year.I try to explain to my husband that excowife and her family planned all this from day one to marry his sister with excowife brother to force hubby to divorce me.It is very simple and clear they told out of their own mouths to divorce me and they would take my hubby sister back and everything would be as before.MY husband refused so typical of cross cousin marriage his sister is facing divorce but for some reason my MIL can’t seem to get it through her head it was all a set up from day one and she fell into the scam to even marry her daughter there.What MIL thought is that excowife was fine and living secretly as my husbands wife(for some reason in my MIL brain she can’t see the wrong in it the lies)She acts like she did excowife a favor all these years and her family and to me that is just insane thinking.If I was my excowife I would have never allowed so long.The sad thing is she is getting back exactly what she did.Thanks G.D has blessed me with understanding in this matter.
    I think I need to ask her to put herself in excowife place.Would she sit 8 yrs and wait and wait on her husband while he is enjoying and making another life without her in another country.Knowing my mother inlaw the way I do she would scream like a dog and do the exact same thing excowife and her family are doing now.

  • Sarata

    May 14, 2013

    @J I’m feeling kinda calm at the moment. Or numb maybe.
    I know what you mean about the crying exhausting you. I really wanna be at that stage too – I’m clinging to the idea that it will get better, but imagining its gonna get worse first with the wedding etc.
    I too have let myself and my studies slip. If all this helps bring me closer to Allah then Alhamdulillah.
    As soon as I’m over this depressed & pathetic stage I have plenty of things to do. If I can get over it (feels kinda impossible right now) I feel so weak & rubbish.
    Please keep me in your Duas. I need all the help I can get right now In’shaa Allāh x

  • Jenny

    May 14, 2013

    @ Felicia,

    What is wrong with your husband contributing to your rainy day fund too? Is that really a burden you should handle all by yourself? Isn’t he supposed to support you? It really isn’t your problem if he can’t afford it. Tell him to get another job. He wants the joy of having multiple women, then he should have the joy of having multiple jobs to support them. happy

    The people in Pakistan are locusts. I’m sure they would boil my husband in his own mustard to totally suck him dry if they could get me out of the picture. I had the same fears. My husband needed me for the first business he started. I had money, my own business. He needed a brain to run the business. While I may be a charitable person by nature, my mother did not raise a fool. At the time he was still married to his cousin. I had fears of not only he losing his money, but me mine. Of course, I heard the words how that would never happen. Sorry, I am a lawyer, I’ve seen what happened to trusting women.

    While I loved him, I didn’t like what I was marrying into. That was when I put all these demands on him. The main one being I own everything in my name alone. Wills can be challenged, screw that. Hubby must have had amazing faith in me that I would not burn him. Without a seconds thought, he agreed.

    So yes, if he ever leaves, he’ll be leaving with only his freedom. laughing. I get peace of mind I’m not supporting a wife. Sorry, won’t do that. If the people in Pakistan start demanding things, he can honestly say he has no money, to ask me. Of course, they won’t ask me for anything, but I am very generous to his other children. I really feel sorry for them and don’t know the right thing to do with them. We do get along, after many tense years. Hubby wanted to bring them here and they wanted to come too. For some reason, I think it was very cruel to take them away from their mother. If my husband tried to do that to me, he would be roommates with Jimmy Hoffa! But Pakistani men think nothing of ripping the children away from their mothers.

    Even if we got past that issue, our home is not like Pakistan and nor will I let it become like it. His kids grew up in a strict Muslim house. My home is a strict Jewish one. We live in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood and my husband blends in very well. The only Muslim in our neighborhood is our neighbor, his best friend.

    I will not have my children getting confused. My boys wear tzitzits and have the side curls. Shabbat rules are enforced in our home, separate plates, whole nine yards. We have a formal Shabbat dinner every week, with much company. If they come. They have to blend into the life I have here. I live in New York City, not Pakistan. My husband and I curl up on the couch with our kids. My neighbors see us hold hands and we kiss all the time in the office and at home, which I know is frowned upon in Islam. While my husband says these things will not change, I know they will. I could see his oldest son’s reaction when hubby gives me a swat in the hiney! This is behavior they never saw with their mother. My husband never lived with her. Only three visits to Pakistan in 17 years. I’m sure there will be a lot of resentment. Hubby hasn’t mentioned their coming in a while now. I just go along with the flow when he mentions them coming. While he starts all gun ho, it never happens.

    The way he is with our family is a total night and day. Hubby gives just as many baths and diaper changes as I do. He reads them stories at bedtime, which is mainly made up because his reading is less to be desired. Our daughter, Hadassah, has him wrapped around her finger. She is the boss. He loves all of our children, but he connects in a special way with Hadassah. This is the man that didn’t want daughters. happy It’s funny, Hadassah will say, “Daddy, no!” And that is it. laughing Game over for him. His daughter in Pakistan barely says a word and has no relationship like that. I no longer try to understand it.

    Thank you everyone for your well wishes. The procedure is in the afternoon tomorrow. Had my doctor’s appointment and blood work today. I had all my days confused. I don’t even know what day it is. All I know is we stepped on a plane Saturday afternoon.

    This morning I woke up with a sore throat. It feels better now, but I can’t stop blowing my nose. I had a sinus infection the week before we left. I really hope it is allergies and not a cold. I feel tired, but I haven’t really slept much. Yesterday we were running around Vienna. Friday and Saturday we will be back in Vienna. One evening we are going on a cruise on the Danube for a few hours. The other night we are going to the orchestra. Tonight we are going for an incredible steak dinner at my favorite restaurant outside of Prague. Then I will go to bed.

    Thursday I will be relaxing getting a perfume and head massage for almost three hours. Can’t wait for that. The clinic I go to is incredible. It is four stories and they have a spa and five star hotel in the building. I also get a Dead Sea wrap and facial, which are amazing and leaves the body tingling.

    This time I wasn’t in a rush to fly back. I doubt that had anything to do with my having an etopic, but you never know. I was relaxing. Not staying in bed the whole time, but doing relaxing things. Before my spa treatment we are going to the zoo and see one of the castles again.

    We have crammed things into every second of this vacation. I pray this works again and not etopic again. It was so hard on me. I still feel such crippling sadness. It was twins. Not that losing one wouldn’t be bad… I think in some ways it was harder on my husband. He was with me when I started bleeding out, while getting an ultrasound. We just heard the babies heart beats. He was in shock for a few weeks and I doubt he yet understands what happened. Bless his heart, he doesn’t even understand the menstrual cycle! laughing. I’ll keep everyone posted.

    Well I have to run for now!

  • J

    May 14, 2013

    Sarata

    Asalamu Alaykum

    how are you feeling? I know what you mean, but either way you would have fallen in love and gotten emtionaly attached to hubby. It’s a blessing from Allah to love our husbands and take care of them. We are the glue that hold the family together mashaAllah. I know what your saying about the future, its hard to imagine because now all the plans have to made around her too, thats what am struggling with its like ive been there from day one. But we plan and Allah is the best of planners, and our futures are not promised because our death is already written for us. MashaAllah. I just try to think, I have to focus on me and on my kids, my good deeds, and planning for my hereafter. Now am in the stage of focusing even more on Allah, on my self, and making my self feel beautiful everyday it does wonders for the soul because stressing and crying wears you out, planting with the kids, and I started back up my Islamic Studies that ive gotten lazy on. I might even start a part time job, who knows.

  • J

    May 14, 2013

    Jenny

    Wow thats amazing, I dont know how you have two sets of twins and stay sane lol. My kids are a year apart and they tire me out. But I do want to have more, maybe after I dropped some extra pounds ill get on it happy wow I have a friend who recently had an etopic pregnancy too she was delaying going to the doc and it almost ruptured. How did IVF go? Lots of good wishes towards your way.

    and OMG LOL taliban informed of a jewish woman coming. Am still laughing about it

  • Felicia

    May 14, 2013

    @Gail,
    Just thought I would share friend’s my story as we sometimes discuss living arrangements.
    She has been trying to be a parent to them but they are 6,4 and 2 years, the baby is 7 months. now that the eldest is at school she can help with homework, actually she prefers to teach the Islamic stuff. The 4 year old starts kindergarten this month and she is hoping to break some barriers with her soon. One step at a time.
    I would need nerves of steel it I have to live with a Co like you and her. My hats off to both of you!!!!!
    I luv they way you said your husband is popular now that he is in USA.
    My Co’s family actually postponed a wedding so that hubby could attend as he is one of the few living in a foreign country. Remarkable the status you get but the responsibilities/torture follows shortly thereafter.
    It is most emotionally draining starting to plan life separate from my husband. Everything I did/dreamt was for us.The same with finances, I’ll would buy something and take his taste into consideration. Now with my own business I think as soon as I sell a house I need to put aside for a rainy day, my rainy day. It’s a weird mixed up thought and action. It is a lonely place to be. I will be using it for myself and child. He isn’t part of the equation. I’m like previously when I saved for a rainy day it was he knew how much I put aside and rainy day meant when we retire or one of us dies. Now it plain old me!! . The change painful and to top it I have to ensure Paki family can’t lay their hands on it.
    @Kim congrats on losing the weight and reaching out to N another time , keep going.

    @ Jenny, all the best with the IVF.

    @Bobti enjoy your time with the extended family. Hubby will be proud of you for getting along so well with his family.

    @Sabrina not one but two Russian guns???? did he give any explanation?

    @ all you lovely ladies that I haven’t mentioned – have a wonderful day.

    Don’t know if you ladies watch Bollywood movies -I watched Khuda ke liye (available with English sub-titles) shocking but explains clearly what Gail and Jenny are trying to explain to us.
    Just yesterday I watched a discussion on the changing of divorce laws in India. The discussion raised issues related to women owning property and inheriting property. I think women in both Pakistan and India, and probably countries like Kashmir and Bangladesh, experience oppression when it comes to owning property in their names. sad

    @Fatima where are you? have you managed to replace the wooden toilet seat??

  • Jenny

    May 14, 2013

    @ Gail and Sabrina,

    It is very hard to get an accurate birthday as back in the days when children were born, they were born at home and birth records were what the parents said they were. Giving birth in a hospital is a relatively new thing, same with birth certificates.

    My husband flat out explained that to me before we got married. When his mom shipped him off to jolly old England when he was a kid, he had to be age 13. His birth certificate and hubby’s legal birthday on all government documents is Feburary 1, 19XX. His birthday he believes from his mother is December 12, three years earlier. We celebrate the December birthdays.

    I had the honor of getting hubby his first birthday cake and birthday present the first of his birthdays after we married. He cried. Never had that before. Now you start to see birthdays being celebrated. Ask my neighbor who has nine kids. Aunt Jenny and Uncle I but the pizzas and ice cream cakes. happy

    Sabrina, Gail is absolutely correct about being poisoned! My husband admitted to me that it happens there. They think its funny. Usually they slip you a Mickey that will keep you on the toilet, which 9 times out of 10, the hole in the floor. Ewwww….. Thanks to Gail, I have two Life Straws. I may look like a total fool drinking from that, but my husband’s cousin will not be proisoning moi! It’s bad enough that probably alerted all the Taliban in Pakistan that an American Jew will be coming soon!

    Speak of hole in the floor toilets, it sounds like your husband is of the age of my hubby. Next time he goes to the doctor, ask him to have a hepatitis test. Most Pakistani’s are either positive or turn up positive, but exposed and recovered. Two reasons: the toilet issues and back in the days, when they gave children immunization a, they did not use clean needles. My husband is currently under interferon treatment for hepatitis.

    Your husband is probably telling you the truth about the age. That he may not know, and Pakistani women are less to be desired. You never know his mother’s motivations. Now what does scare me about your situation is the guns??? We’re they for personal safety? I mean we own a few rifles because hubby and I go hunting sometimes. Usually once a year is all we have time for, but we got our rifles and buckshot. He likes to shoot game, but I like deer and wild turkey (very hard to get too I add). When I want to sharpen my skills I’ll hunt wild turkey’s with a bow and arrow, which I learned from my grandfather.

    If his arrest happened in the US, his shot of immigrating would be nil. Does it work the same way in your country? Please keep your eyes wide open!

  • Kim

    May 13, 2013

    Gail,

    Nope, M is Sunni. Ni is Shia and is the one who insisted back during their secretive days to do Mut’ah. M honestly had no friggen clue what it even was but was like er…ok??? she explained it and he’s all, oh ok. Because religiously he ain’t the brightest bulb, he had no clue what Sunni teaching is on it, it’s never come up in his life.

    Again, dude isn’t very religious. “Adultery”, or “Zina” if you will, is nothing new to him. I could put both feet in his arse and it wouldn’t do any good. Again, this is on him, on her. I’ve talked myself to death on it and have zero energy – none – nada – to go through that again.

    Now, as to your Kashmir question. Remember that Kashmir is divided by 3 countries – Pakistan, India and China. If someone is in “Azad Kashmir” then they’re on the Pak side and would have Pak citizenship and subsequently a Pak passport. On .the Indian side, Indian citizenship and Indian passport. There may be dual citizenship between the US and Pakistan, but there is no recognition of dual citizenship between India and the US. The best he could hope for is PIO (Person of Indian Origin) status which would enable him to work, do business, and buy property – in ANY part of India EXCEPT in Jammu & Kashmir. Why? Article 370, which was part of the accession agreement with India. Under Article 370, only a “State Subject” of Jammu & Kashmir may buy and own property in the state. A State Subject means one who was born in Kashmir, of parents who are Kashmiri, and and 2. Be an Indian Citizen throughout the time of ownership of said property.

    So you see the issue? If he gives up Indian CItizenship, there goes along with it, his Kashmiri State Subject status, and along with it, every asset he has.

  • Gail

    May 13, 2013

    Jenny,
    I hope u have success with your trying to get pregnant this go around.Did u have a nice Mothers Day? My husband totally forgot it but thats nothing new I can’t remember a single time he has ever remembered it to be honest he says he is sorry but it is just words as usual.Feeling kinda down and out these days to be honest.I am in hopes to purchase a van in the next 24 hours so wish me luck so I can start working again and stashing extra money in the bank in my own name.I know I am walking on the right track now but I don’t know I just feel so alone.I just sincerely hope u gave me good advice to not have walked with my exlove.I can’t really put my finger on anything particular but I feel like my life is not my own.Sometimes I just want to sit in the corner and do nothing but cry.I seriously don’t have any idea how I got in this situation.It saddens me very much for my husband to treat me so nonchalantly.On the positive side I am in hopes by fall I am sitting on the start of my own nice little nest egg.
    Gosh it is so weird I have money thousands and thousands of dollars seriously on me every single day but I feel broke.I feel terrified when I think of the future and not having my own nest egg separate than hubby.The only logical thing I have come up with is that he may divorce me in the future and I will be very stuck if my children have not graduated from University.The other strange thing is that he claims he will never divorce me but I don’t trust him so his words are really meaningless to me as far as financial security goes.I sometimes wonder if I will ever find the peace I so much long for.

    Kim,
    Your husband must be Shia I believe.My husband is Also Shia but I don’t think he believes in Mutah marriage.He may though I will have to ask him.I will be honest it sounds very strange to me and like legal prostitution if u ask me.I have heard stories about Shia men doing Mutah on prostitutes for an hour.How strange is that?I guess Mutah marriage is convenient for men who want to get their rocks off.I know I personally would never agree to a Mutah marriage as I don’t see the respect given to woman in a Mutah marriage but thats just me.I hope I don’t offend u or anyone else by writing about Mutah marriages it’s not my intention.My own husband is Shia and I find Mutah marriage very strange.

  • Gail

    May 13, 2013

    Arica,
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I just got of my menses yesterday!!! You are to funny!!!

  • Gail

    May 13, 2013

    Sabrina,
    Now u r thinking more correctly.Listen Pakistan people lie all the time and age is one thing they lie about very easy.They don’t celebrate birthdays and he may not even really know his real birthdate that is how strange it is.If u think he older then chances are he is.
    Sabrina my husband told me so many lies over the years u would gasp.One lie he told me right after we married was that he was adopted and up until he told me the truth about keeping cowife on the side as a wife in Pakistan well my entire marriage he let me believe he was adopted.I being from USA was not totally taken back by it but it created a huge problem for us because his son from his first marriage has a colon issue and every single damn time I wrote out his family history I put he was adopted.When the truth came out I was furious beyond words.One thing to betray me but your own child still I don’t know how he could have done it.All I can say he is a master manipulator and a liar of great proportions indeed.It is sad because it was in my head that his parents were not my sons biological grandparents.His lies affected me very hard.
    Sabrina above all I believe this moral for myself and I will share it with u because it may somehow help u.
    To tell the TRUTH is a very hard thing and to LIE is a very easy thing to cover yourself but as time goes on and you continue to tell lie over lie over lie then one day you wake up and realize you don’t even know who u are.If we are truly spiritual beings then it stands to reason a person should close his or her eyes and think who he or she is and what they stand for.Years ago I use to lie it didn’t bother me one bit to tell a lie when I was a teenager and young adult to save my skin but one day I woke up and a light went off and I realized this truth .I must be truthful in everything because the truth really is all there is.I don’t want to stand before G.D on judgment day and have no idea who I even am because I have lied so much that I don’t even know what I stand for.This is called being a rock.I consider myself a rock.Am I perfect no but in all honesty if I had to rate myself on not lying I would say I am in all seriousness 99.9999% truthful.the .ooo1% is not because I lie but because I let myself think something that is in a gray area like Do I have proof my excowife poisoned me.No I don’t so technically I should not accuse because I have the lack of proof even though I am certain she did something. but it really doesn’t matter because I forgive her even if she did that so what is use to cry over damage already done.However I want to get the information out there becareful and don’t be silly and let your cowife serve you if u are in a foreign country is my sincere advice for your own safety esp esp… drinking eating u can get by with if everyone is eating out of same dishes then u are fine but never let her single u out and hand u a plate of food or a drink.It’s to risky if u ask me.Also always always carry a container with a lid on it and keep it with u at all times is my very best advise when u are traveling overseas.Keep in mind it may not be just cowife that wants u gone but could also be your dear sweet inlaws.It is very well known in the villages of Pakistan that people sneak into the kitchen and turn off the pilot lights and leave the home except for the daughter inlaw and when the daughter inlaw goes to the kitchen and lights the stove BOOOMMMMM!! End of story and hubby gets new wife new life or they throw acid on their wives faces so many terrible things happen in Pakistan.I am not telling u all this to scare u but rather to inform u of the culture incase u are not aware.You can google any of this I have said on the internet and find out all about it.It is very common everything I have stated.

  • Gail

    May 13, 2013

    Kim,
    Listen I don’t know about Kashmir but I thought my husband told me that they have Pakistani passports.I know Kashmir is very strange as Pakistani and India are all the time fighting over it but I know my husband has duel citizenship Pakistani and American and he was able to obtain American citizenship after 3 years of being married to me.Again I don’t know about Kashmir but all my children and hubby have duel citizenship.Might be something to look more into since this is an issue and make certain u have the correct information.I have no idea about India laws regarding citizenship.I do however know that my exsister inlaw now lives in Kashmir and I have bee to Kashmir on the Pakistan side and never had any problems.Some of my husbands family live in Kashmir.
    My husband also has business and shops and rental homes galore but it has never been a problem for us.You do have me curious about Kashmir now and if they have different laws.

  • Gail

    May 13, 2013

    Kim,
    You have me also dying to know what happen but u share it in your own time.As far as hubby is concerned I don’t know why he is staying the night unless N and him are thinking they are married and resuming their marital relations.If thats not the case u might want to put a foot in his arse on that one because now it just sounds like plain old fashion adultery is going on.
    Whatever it is that is troubling u I hope u find closure regarding your issue.
    I am curious do u know if M and M consider themselves still married at this point since they have done the do? Call me crazy but I am very big on not committing Adultery.I know everyone might find that strange coming from my mouth but it was one conditions if hubby was to get back together with cowife he would have to legally remarry her in Pakistan.He didn’t so that was that.

  • Sabrina

    May 13, 2013

    @ all thanks for the advice, I think if we stay together I’m going to have to do what Jenny and Gail advises and take control especially with the finances. He sent me a message saying everything is ok but he is still a bit cool. I’m so glad I could read your stories and get more of an understanding of the culture and the way they think. Everything in UK is in my name, and I had a civil and religious ceremony in Kuwait. He also registered the marriage in Pakistan, but there is no way I want to go there and mentally I can only cope with polygamy with the distance, couldn’t cope with us in the same house. He has already told the his 3 girls they got another mama, and they wanted to see me on Skype so he took them to the city (he comes from the tribal area) but I was at work so missed them. The other thing I think he is lying about his is age he says he is 36 when I met him just turned 37 but he looks much older, he looks older than me there is 9 yrs difference. He also had to pay to get himself out of prison in February for having 2 Russian guns that’s been making me think what I have I been getting myself into. Why he would keep them in the house. Now I’m actually writing all this down thinking what am I doing, but as you have said they are smooth talkers and come across so sweet. Have start thinking everything as a business deal and not love.

  • Bobti

    May 13, 2013

    Salaam alykom to all

    @Jenny – my husband is not from Pakistan and both the wives are from the same country and background….I have done both civil and criminal work, now mostly civil work…I work for a semi-government body who give free legal services to ‘poor’ people, so I deal with volumes of work which take a lot of energy from me…me too Jenny, I am straight, honest – cant stand lies and bulls*&t…I still struggle to keep this behaviour in line with the religion…

    @Kim – you are right … the “laws” is mostly muslim behaviour put to paper as both wives are reverts…its was just easy reference to some behaviour and some extra rules which we thought should apply …and it is called “laws” only cause my husband is calling it like thank to give him power… loool

    @Ana – most of the horror movie with regards to abuse(physically/mental/emotional/verbal) has gone as the new ‘laws’ looool forbid that…

    we had ‘mothersday’ yesterday in our country and the other wife sent me the most beautiful roses delivered to my house on Saturday!…the card had no name in it – it was like a valentine’s card….very secretive, however I knew it was from her….which she acknowledged when I thanked her yesterday….WHY THE SECRECY!!!….I just can’t live with the secrets….why would someone – a woman- send another woman flowers with no name????

    I invited the other wife for coffee and we picked up again…I don’t know for how long it will last as it never lasts long….I have to learn not to tell her everything and not let her come to close to my space…

    I am going insha allah on holiday to my husband’s country in 3 weeks (with him! for the 2nd time)…I carried the costs in case some1 thinks I am spoilt by him…something to look forward as his extended family and me are getting on very well…

    take care all of you here of the blog…Salaam

  • Sarata

    May 13, 2013

    @J I love that Hadith too. I’ve always liked to think of me & my hubs like Mohammed saw & Khadijah ( a sheikh on Huda TV today even quoted that Hadith today)
    We have been through a lot and I sacrificed so much for him – before him
    I swore I’d never give any man the power to make me feel worthless again – but hub proved himself and I put my trust and started to build a future – I never ever thought he’d do anything (halal or not) that would risk hurting me.
    I can’t see my future I guess because the one I was dreaming about no longer exists (me him
    & our kids) It’s never gonna be just me & him against the world any more.

    I wish I’d become Muslim before I met him – married a man I’d not had the chance to get this emotionally attached to. I couldn’t ever imagine having to look for a hub the Islamic way – but there is so much wisdom in it.
    As soon as we put our whole heart into another human being rather than Allah swt – we gonna come crashing down with a bump. Won’t make that mistake again In’shaa Allāh.

  • Kim

    May 13, 2013

    @ Jenny,

    Yes, hence the “Mut’ah” again. I know that’s hugely controversial and sectarian, and I’m staying out of that one entirely; it’s on her to deal with along with him. I could argue til doomsday, but in the how many centuries it’s been an issue between sects in Islam it’s never been resolved; doubtful anything I say will do any good. If they’re ok with Mut’ah marriage then so be it. It’s on them to answer for it.

    Huge prayers for a successful knocking up!!! happy

  • Kim

    May 13, 2013

    Well, I agree….umpteen billion times bitten umpteen billion times twice shy. I’m maintaining my friendly attitude without pushing a thing, really. However her responses are, they’re hers. I’m doing ME and what I feel is the best under the circumstances.

    Cold silence took me out of the fitnah ring before, I know, but it also cut me totally off from half of M’s life, and another fitnah came as a result of that. And he had to seriously compartmentalize which was extremely tough for him to do. It’s not really in his nature. N and I being on friendly speaking terms without pushing anything, without her complaining about being #2 and never having wanted it, or getting play by plays of their doing the do is fine. As long as M isn’t the focus of our talking with each other, we’re good.

    IF that line should be crossed again, I know who will cross it and what the outcome will be…it will be on N and not mine. I won’t get wound up in the drama and she knows it damn well.

  • Arica

    May 13, 2013

    Asalam Alaykim,

    I just gotta say I knew that women who lived together eventually started having there menses together, I didn;t know it could happen on a blog!! LOL….what is with all you ladies PMSing together!! LOL!!!

  • Jenny

    May 13, 2013

    Hello J,

    Actually, I have two sets of twins. I was pregnant with a third set, but in January, we found that they were etopic, hence doing it again. We love our BIG family and my husband is definitely a hands on daddy, in the trenches doing diaper patrol. Extremely uncommon for a Pakistani man. I’ll never forget the first time I was pregnant. My husband informed me that Pakistani men don’t change diapers. I told him welcome to America! The land of gender equality! Good thing he’s American, right? laughing

    We have so much fun with our munchkins! He is an awesome daddy. Totally different than with his other kids. No hands on. Just a phone call.

    @ Kim,

    Question: Shouldn’t he be married again before the overnight visits start???

  • J

    May 13, 2013

    Sabrina

    All the ladies here have awesome advice, The only thing I can say is be careful what your next steps are, and communication is key, especially if you want to have a baby. I hope you stay here, and talk on here because it will help you cope and deal with everything. Plus all the ladies here have great advice on being married to Paki’s. And it seems like you support yourself financial, so I would suggest your protect all your assets just in case.

  • J

    May 13, 2013

    Sarata

    Asalamu Alaykum `Girl I feel you, even trying to focus on all the positive aspects it hurts and makes you feel all ungrateful and empty. alhamdulillah your husband seems like a good man and seems to care about your feelings. You are definitely strong I cant even imagen being in the same place with co and my husband it hurts to much right now. But inshaAllah with time it must get better I hope. I think for me and you it will matter a lot on how our husbands deal with the situations ahead cuz mine doesnt even wanna be friends anymore and inshaAllah everything will fall into place for us. Like Allah says in Surah Baqarah “Surely with every difficulty their is relief, surely with every difficulty their is relief”

    How come you feel unsure about your future now? I feel the same way sometimes, even though my husband assured me that he would not let anything come between us, or ruin the love we have. Which is hard to comprehend I mean HELLO your with another woman. BUT you try to be positive and accept the Sunnah. Ive been thinking a lot recently about the love that the Prophet pbuh had for Khadijah I believe in that love, It eases my heart, even after her death he spoke so much good of her, to the point were Aisha was super jealous of her and she was dead, and said something like Why do you talk about that old woman all the time when Allah gave you something better?, and the Prophet pbuh got very upset and said something like Allah has not given me a better wife than Khadijah, for she supported me when no one else did and bore me children. Sorry everyone if this isnt word by word just writing from memory. But I like this hadeeth a lot. Makes me wish I was like Khadijah to my husband. lol.

    Anyways Alhamdulillah

    KIM

    Am so happy you lost weight!! keep going your smokinnnnnnn. I was on my period and was not excerising and had two slices of pizza ugh felt like crap after. But now am back and worked off that pizza lol. Kim stay away from N. Shes just gonna feed on your niceness and find other ways to sneak in. She may want to be friends but It seems like she cant really change herself, I just think unless she fully accepts this is what Allah has in pan for her and accept it as part of the deen, she will always try to jump on any train that she thinks will mess up your relationship with M. I dont want to be all negative and stuff, but I just dont want you to be falling in the same fitnah over again.

    Jenny

    I hope your IVF goes well and you are knocked up. I think you mentioned you have twins right? So its possible you can have another set? I love the idea of twins on my husband side he has twins his cousins a boy and girl.

  • Jenny

    May 13, 2013

    @ Gail,

    My goodness, how do you handle all the drama? Waiting for our driver to come. Going to Prague. Having IVF tomorrow, so hopefully, I will be well knocked up. happy

    Spent the day wandering around Vienna. Literally stopped so many times at the outdoor cafes (they are everywhere) to have Viennese coffee. I will be uploading a lot of pictures to Ana and when she comes back, I’m sure she will post some as she usually does. This is such an amazing place and we’ll be back here Friday. Sunday we are off to Switzerland before coming home.

    Sabrina, you must have your own money. When my husband And i married, I put so many demands on him, the demands were crazy to me! But he accepted them. The big one was everything we own is in my name alone. Now, years later, I think my husband was very smart because keeping everything in my name has saved him a lot of grief. First, it has made me extremely loyal to hubby; and second, everyone in Pakistan knows not to ask hubby for anything. Hubby tells them they have to ask me, and that is majorly embarrassing to them. winking Nipped that problem right in the a$$.

    I am so thankful he had his children and his relationship with the cousin was over before we met. Honestly, if I had to live through that, in all honesty, I can say only one of us would have lived through it. I could have never handled it. That I know for sure.

    Sabrina, I hope you stay on here with us. Between me and Gail, we want to make sure you have guidance in dealing with the crazy family situation.

    Gail likes to jump in and deal with them. I’m of the other opinion. I don’t deal with them at all. I do have a very strong relationship with his kids (who are all teenagers), but as far as the rest of the family, won’t handle the drama. Once in awhile, the drama lands on my doorstep, once or twice a year. They learned a good lesson that hubby puts me before anyone and I am the one he seeks advice. Once his family told him his mother died. They came clean about what they did when they found out hubby wasn’t running back to them.

    He talks to the kids every day. His mother, when she is up, maybe every few days. He really has no ties there other than being a telephone dad. Hubby is Muslim, but even his best friend teases him about being Jewish. laughing

    Sabrina, I won’t lie to you, you really have one hell of a very tough road to hoe. You must be a stronger woman than I. I am one tough chick, but my husband and children are my Achilles heel.

    As far as not hearing for your husband, I wouldn’t worry because it is a combination of reasons right now. The main reason is probably no power in which he can email you. Hubby tells me power is only on for about two hours a day. Second, he probably don’t know what to say to you and is trying to think what sweet things he can say to you to calm down. Beware, you are better off eating a cup of sugar instead!

    @ Kim,

    It is nice you are extending the hand of friendship to N, but I have to ask, why??? Obviously, she has a mental condition and had you looking for the pot with the rabbit in it when you got home. Do you really think she will change? You can paint over the spots, but the leopard will always have them.

    Why is it important to your husband that you two be friends? If my husband suggested that with his cousin, he would have spent the next hundred years getting my foot out of his a$$. laughing. You know she doesn’t accept the situation and it will come to a head sooner rather than later.

  • Kim

    May 13, 2013

    @ Gail,

    Well if there’s one thing I’ve learned being at 411, it’s that if ever M and I do divorce, and as much as I am drawn to South Asia, I’ll never marry a Pakistani dude :/ WAY too much trouble for me to contend with. Alhamdulillah M’s family is nothing like this. There’s greed, sure, but it’s of a different kind, not this crazy scheming and stabbing. There’s an issue between 2 of the brothers which fundamentally is due to a “woman fight” (between 2 wives of these 2 brothers), and another fight with one of the 2 brothers’ wives and her daughter in law, my nephew’s wife, then ANOTHER crisis with 3 of the brothers in my family there, and M has found himself in it and YES it’s about money/property, and YES others have been pulled into the fray, but it isn’t anything on the level you’ve described with your in-laws. I consider us very fortunate.

    As for us and Kashmir. Oh boy loaded question. M insists that N won’t go because she has her kids and other family here. As per usual, when he and N weren’t speaking he was Kashmir gung-ho. Now that she’s back into the picture he’s waffling about saying it’s not time, but he’ll go for a month this fall as he promised he would and honestly really needs to, to make sure his shop’s inventory is taken care of, the sale of the house is done, etc.

    I am probably cutting my own throat here but Allahu Alim….IF N and I can maintain the type of relationship we’re TRYING to have right now, and if it deepens into a genuine friendship/sisterhood (i.e. there’s no anxiety attacks when he’s on his time with her, she doesn’t flip out, and I genuinely REALLY grow to view her as vital in my life and not trying to steal my place and THAT will take time and effort), then if she wants to come, Alhamdulillah. Regardless, I made him swear the other day, taking the most solemn vow, that his intentions are still he and I and Kashmir are still the goal. He absolutely swore they are.

    There are some issues he has to contend with involving immigration and his green card. He does not want to lose his green card because of his kids here in the US, his grandson, etc. He also knows what hardship it can be leaving and coming back all the time, and with the greencard he cannot stay out of the US very long. If he could obtain US Citizenship that would alleviate the problem, of course. HOWEVER….he would have to give up Indian citizenship, and thereby any rights to ownership of land/home/business. He’d lose everything there. And that’s out of the question. So he’s truly stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    Sure his kids could travel to Kashmir to visit, they’re independent adults, but they’re not rich, and it costs money. Our absence from Kashmir, and mishandling of his business by his nephew has resulted in a financial hit and a half. Hence he’s selling the house, paying off the brother, and starting over…not only with a new home but a new business as well.

    So, I don’t know is the most honest answer I can give. I want to be there next year, I promised I’d be there next year. Only Allah knows if that promise will be kept.

    M stayed at N’s last night, and I wasn’t happy. I had asked him and he’d agreed, as did she, that if there are to be overnights, at least give me a decent amount of a heads-up. The heads-up I got came at midnight last night. I wasn’t happy….but there’s something else about it. I had something HUGE happen yesterday evening while he was gone and really really needed him here. In a way I’m grateful he wasn’t home because the HUGE thing involves something I’ve never told him about in all our years together, and I suspect his reaction would have been pretty intense and since it’s deeply personal, I wanted/needed to process it myself and with my kids as it involved them as well. Still, I was upset he waited til midnight to let me know he wasn’t coming home. Not cool. At. All. I understand sh*t happens, time got away, whatever, so it’s ok, but still…we had a damn agreement. Looks like we need to revisit some of the boundaries I THOUGHT were mutually agreed upon.

    I did end up telling him on the phone when he called at midnight (I was on the phone and called him back after I was done). Told him something huge had happened, but it could wait til morning when he gets here. He insisted on knowing then and there, so I told him. He took it calmly enough, but I have no idea how things will go when he gets here (supposed to be here around 10). Insha Allah he’ll be ok.

    I’d tell you all what it’s about but it’s deeply personal, very few know about this, and I’m in a tailspin…insha Allah I’ll talk about it later, after M and I have had a chance to talk.

  • Gail

    May 13, 2013

    Kim,
    I am very proud of u for doing the right thing.I am also very proud of N for receiving your food graciously.It is very hard to fight your emotions and do the right thing.I wish I had you for a cowife!
    Hubby told me last night that excowife sister called his brother screaming at him over the phone saying all kinds of nasty things.I told hubby do not bother in the future to tell me things about cowife because he refuses to fix the problem.I notice it makes him feel very good to have her and her family swooning over him.I personally don’t have anything against excowife other than she tried to poison me and I will not again eat or drink anything she cooks and keep only beverages in closed containers when I am around her or her family but yeah other than that she really doesn’t bother me as strange as it may sound.
    It is so strange because I am the one person that could actually help her but because of her greediness and her desire to see me divorced she refuses to ask for my help.As it is seems she will be screaming till the cows come home because my sister inlaw has decided to divorce cowife brother.The saga continues.
    Kim u never did tell me if u and M are going back to Kashmire and if so will M also be going?

  • Gail

    May 13, 2013

    Sabrina,
    I read your post and am truly sorry for your situation.I know exactly how u feel as I have already walked a very long way down this same road u are now on my friend.
    Sabrina you have two choices now that u have found yourself in this situation.You must either decide to accept or divorce there really isn’t much of a third option for you my dear.If you do accept to stay with your Pakistani husband I think u should become very familiar with his culture as it is must for your survival in the marriage.
    I am pretty certain u have noticed by now Pakistani men are smooth talkers thats how they trap the unsuspecting woman from the west sorry to say.For some strange reason Pakistani people think that that Europe(UK &USA) is nothing but money and fun in the sun and free citizenship.
    Kuwait is financially a great place as far as currency is concerned but two problems from what I understand for Pakistanis in Kuwait.1 they can never obtain citizenship. 2 They make much less money being Pakistani than Kuwait citizens from what my husband has told me.
    Now as far as your cowife asking more money to give to her family that is part of Pakistani culture I am afraid.In Pakistan it is understood that when one marries they must help in all matters with their wives family it is just a given there.I didn’t learn this until I myself told my own cowife that Hubby and I would support her naturally but never her parents.OH BOY did I create a great mess and tension in the family by that one simple statement.
    Sabrina I hate to say this but never never get to close to your cowife in Pakistan as she will never have your best interest at heart.She will always be looking out for her own welfare as well as her children and never yours.It is the Nature of the beast sorry to say.It is not that Pakistani females are bad people but instead it has to do with the family system that is set up there.Everything is passed to the oldest son normally.Everyone in that society has a place and a duty.I want to say something about the Pakistani wife and this goes for you to my dear if u should decide to move to Pakistan yourself.A Pakistani wife is subject under her husband and more so under her inlaws namely her mother inlaw.It is a very hard life because most mother inlaws are disagreeable and hard on their daughter inlaws.Pakistani wives are nothing more than mere servants and nothing more.I have lived in that society and this is the truth of it.
    Let me explain my situation when I live in Pakistan.Since I am from USA I am treated like mother inlaws prize pig!She is very happy to show me around like I am her personal trophy she has won and obtained.I have never liked her showing me off in such a manner and has always made me feel like a visitor and not part of the family.My 5 sister inlaws have always been very nice to me but only one has treated like I am a sister the others are just nice to my face only.The one sister that actually treats me like a sister is married to cowife brother if u can imagine.Her inlaws have made her call my husband demanding he divorce me and then she has to run back to me and tell me don’t divorce husband and let cowife win as if my marriage were some kind of game.It is not my sister inlaw fault as she is has a small daughter of her own and if she refused what her inlaws said then she get punished it is a vicious vicious cycle that degrades woman.Not to mention my sister inlaw has to listen to insults thrown her way on a daily basis from her inlaws to her husband,It truly is the saddest thing I have ever seen truthfully.As for my own cowife now excowife she waited on her/my husband 8 years in Pakistan to divorce me.While she was waiting on him to divorce me so he could legally remarry her and bring her to USA where she thought in her mind because hubby put it there of course she would just sit her pretty little A$$ on my property(Pakistani woman think everything is husbands even in USA and Europe as most are uneducated in the laws)So anyway my excowife because of her lack of education thought u see that because she blindly trusted her husband to divorce me she would herself by staying silent to me and not telling that he married me only to gain citizenship for his family would herself get USA herself thats why she stayed silent.She also assumed when she came to USA her/my husband would call her brothers and family to USA to work as well.So this is the sick disgusting nasty side of Pakistani family politics.This is the true nature of Pakistani people that I have witnessed.
    In my case I suspected 2 years into my marriage that my husband was not the knight in armor that he appeared to be.It had to do with my husband himself giving away himself and never knowing it.
    One day my husband brother inlaw called to chat with him.My husband was now very popular in Pakistan because he has come to USA and after my husband got off the phone he said something that would forever change my world.He said to me brother inlaw asked him what would happen if he divorced me and I sat there shocked as I listened to his reply.My husband said that it is not a big deal as he has a biological son by me and he shall never be kicked out of the country because of his son.Of course I knew that was wrong information as people get kicked out of USA everyday even if they do have USA citizenship children but that was the day I started to suspect my husband might have other motives towards me so I became concerned as I was not only raising my own biological child with my husband but also his child from his first marriage.So I thought what can I do to save the children and give me a strong hold on my marriage just incase hubby tries to divorce me so I decided to dangle a sweet carrot in front of my greedy little husbands eyes.I decided to offer to adopt his son from his first marriage so the child could obtain citizenship but in reality I was doing what any mother would do to protect her children.Hubby said it would just be a paper thing and I said sure!! of course dear!! So with my sweet words he had his first wife sign her rights away and I legally adopted their only son.
    Some people might say I was wrong and others a genius for what I did but In my mind I was just leveling the playing field with my husband and protecting my children.i was not about to raise my then stepson and invest my time effort and love to possibly loose him if divorce were to happen.
    Sabrina I tell you all this to not frighten you but to warn you that u are playing with fire.When it comes to Pakistani people you must must be smarter than they are if u are to survive.
    As far as your cowife I personally would never trust her as she obviously has some greed in this as well.She will for certain try for a son because she needs to produce an heir.I don’t know if the inlaws will accept your son to be honest as he will not be pure Pakistani.My inlaws act as though they accept my son but I am not 100% certain that they do and they sure didn’t mind lying to me for 8 years and keeping cowife and hubby secret.Of course it was to their advantage u see as they are now living in USA on greencards and next year father inlaw will apply for USA citizenship.It is very disgusting.
    Sabrina I live my life secretly in anger.My emotions are also numb I deal my life for the sake of my children but I secretly I am very disappointed in my marriage.
    One more thing I want to say I tried to befriend my cowife I truly did as I seen her life and felt sorry for her but what I failed to understand is that she/cowife only knows the culture she lives in and although she was very good to describe her anguish to me I failed to see she was being cunning and clever towards me and trying to get all information from me so she could figure out a way to destroy me and get rid on me so she could have her life back.What I have described is the true nature as I have seen it of Pakistani culture.
    I am sorry to say but I have to agree with Jenny very much and the only way a woman from the west will survive married to Pakistani man is to have her own financial worth because at anytime in the future he can kick you to the curb and at the very least mistreat you the same like any other Pakistani wife.

  • Sarata

    May 13, 2013

    Sorry, my last @J was meant to be @Kim

  • Sarata

    May 13, 2013

    Salaams all.
    Yesterday me,hub,son (toddler) & Co2be all went to the beach.
    At first I felt strange (we’ve all been together sooo many times but this time felt much diff)
    I felt like crying – I was looking at the same beautiful ocean and pending subset as always, but I couldn’t see the Beauty Astafirullah it was just water and sky sad That made me feel worse.

    Then I noticed my co had distanced herself a little from me & hub (she was playing with
    My son) & felt maybe she felt bad too.

    We all eventually relaxed mostly thanks to my husban and son entertaining us wrestle in the sand etc.
    But one I was home I was miserable again. And this morning I feel really empty and sad. Hub says to always talk to him about how I feel, but what’s the point repeating myself of it won’t chane anything??

    Ruqayya
    It Definately is a massive change. The marriage date is to be announced any day now.
    I feel like I’m mourning the future I planned – me hubs and children – the dynamic has changed and there’s nothing I can do about it. I feel really insecure & trapped – since meeting my hub I have NEVER felt uncertain about our future until now.

    @J Congrats on being in the same space as N and not wanting to run screaming. Sounds like the calming influence of your good friend helped balance the energy.
    In’shaa Allāh that might have been a turning point for you – Allah knows best.

  • Sabrina

    May 13, 2013

    @Jenny @Gail
    This morning I got up no message of him I’m half panicking and the other half like a numb calm. I know I went about it the wrong way but most of the message I left him is about the similar situation you got. I got to work keep being told to keep trying, when co wife who on a personal level got no bad feelings towards. Co wife stays home will never work and when at home doesn’t do much apparently. New into a marriage its quite a lot to take onboard and she always wants more money to give to the family. I think this time he wont contact me, I had ago at him for getting another wife when he was not in a financial situation or emotionally ready for another wife. He got his wish for a qualified wife but I don’t think he was prepared for the different mindset or the fact I might not want financial support but I want a different kind of support. Im confused how to handle the situation and by my own emotions.

  • Jenny

    May 13, 2013

    @ Gail,

    My hubby could have cared less about the elections either. The night before we left, the natives (our office is located in “Little “Pakistan) were going wild. Some celebrating, some protesting, and of course, the two clashed. Cops didn’t want to get involved, so they just blocked off the street.

    @ Kim,

    Congrats on the weight loss. You lose, I gain. Thanks a lot Kim!

    @ Sabrina,

    Wish I could give you good advice. Gail is the cheerleader around here. I would say get the hell out of dodge. I will say if you consider moving to the tribal village with him, I hope you know what you are getting into. You are going into the place that is named the worst place on earth to be a woman. You could be sold for a goat. You could be shot for reading. Forget going out alone. Being a Westerner, you’ll get kidnapped. Good luck, and I really mean it. You are in a sticky wicket.

  • Gail

    May 12, 2013

    Felicia,
    Strangely this election I have no interest as for hubby I heard him ask his mother the other day about the elections but I have no idea how he feels about it as he is not much for politics but instead his attentions are on making money money money.lol I do know he believes if Imran Khan get elected then Pakistan will go Modern.
    I wanted to comment on your friend and her living with her cowife.I think she is very courageous indeed.It is very hard to live with a cowife and everything u described is spot on.I will say though she should rethink her position with cowife children.She should consider the children her children as she is part of her husband and those children were born under polygamy.Besides their birth mother she is the closest to the children and she has just as much right to give advices and discipline the children as she also sees fit.If your friend is smart and if the children are still young enough she should gradually play more of a parental role in the children’s life.She is not just their fathers other wife but also their mother and should be treated and respected as such and it is very bad of the cowife to accept joint family and then mistreat her cowife in such a manner in my opinion.I can go more into this but I have to serve dinner.Do not take personal what I said about your friend as I myself and my cowife have lived this exact lifestyle.I will explain more later.I hope u are doing well Felicia.Gail

  • Sabrina

    May 12, 2013

    Hi all
    I commented in the past when finding it very hard to except polygamy. My husband is Pakistani, we got married last August 30. I am wife no 2, I wasn’t looking for a husband, or chase him, I don’t know what come over me to say yes. From the beginning he was honest with me, and his family agreed to the marriage, I think partly because how Gail has described they see it as access to the west and being educated with good job money, even though our plan I is to live in Kuwait where he is already established, but is starting since going back there having problems because their position with expats is changing. We married in August I lived with for 5 weeks came back to UK went back out end of October then he went back to Pakistan for 2 months in December this is when I started to fall apart. I no bad feelings to Co wife I keep asking how she is, how she feeling with this situation he says its normal for his culture, I remind him she still a woman with his kids. When he was in Pakistan I was going to end things because from my side cant cope with it. None of this was in life’s plan. Then when he came back he looked so stressed and awful I didn’t say anything. The other thing that has upset me was first he wanted a baby then he didn’t then he said no more babies of either of us(at time I thought odd, he comes from tribal area and needs boys so far he only got 3 girls so was expecting at least he try for boys with cowife if not me) so he was adamant before he went no more babies. Then after about 5 weeks being there we were talking on the phone and he said which I didn’t want to know details she had monthly last week and they were trying for a baby they need a boy. His sister told she had been praying he does not have any boys because of the land situation, and she has 4 boys. Because how he changes decisions he made me repulsed I don’t know if that best way to describe it. So when he came back how stressed he out he was I stayed quiet.. In March I went back to Kuwait to visit him and he looked ten yrs older. So on the visit I looked after him and he was looking better when I left. When opened his suitcase it was llike she hadn’t bothered with him I washed all the clothes and ironed them. All she seems to want is money. One part of me dearly loves him the other pushes him away. Since coming back to UK I have upset him twice already with messages how I feel and ignoring him. Today I pushed him away again left him message to end it and ignored he warned me not to do it again but inside not coping with it all what started me off this time is the problems in Kuwait he is thinking of moving back to Pakistan and me go and live there as well but he is not rich so we would all have to live in the same house. I know I cant cope with that at all. Not her in one room and me in another. Im to new to this idea of polygamy as it is, now I got my self in a state missing him cos usually we talk 2/3 hours a night on Skype and not wanting to be in the situation.

  • ana

    May 12, 2013

    Aishah, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    I don’t know why it does that. Inshah Allah, it won’t happen again. Sorry…

    This is an open house. No need to knock. Just come on in.

  • Kim

    May 12, 2013

    Well girls, be proud of me. I’m proud of me, anyway….

    My son’s ex girlfriend came over with the baby so granddaughter could spend time with my son and with M. I don’t know if I mentioned this, but the ex girlfriend’s mother is a friend of mine going back twenty years and yes she has been an ear during this whole polygamy saga since day one and pretty much knows everything. She isn’t Muslim but she IS my sister of the heart if not the blood, and extremely openminded. She loves M like a brother.

    Anyways, so I thought my friend would just be dropping off her daughter and grandbaby, but no, she wanted me to go out for coffee with her so I did. Then she said “let’s go bum around til I have to get back home.” She suggested the shopping area where N lives and works.

    Welp, I knew N was working today at the big box, so I said OK. Came home quick and ran the idea by M and he said “it’s a great idea – take her some food”. So I packed up some of the lambchop curry with potatoes I’d made the night before along with rice and away we went.

    I introduced my good friend “L” to N for the first time. I think she was very, very stunned. I gave her the container of curry and my friend and I shopped around some then came back and she rang us up, gave me a hug and said thanks so much. And guess what – NO visceral reaction. I said a little prayer to keep my head on the straight n good, and it worked, Alhamdulillah happy

    She and M have a date tonight (not an overnight as far as I know) and I’m going to watch “Hunger Games” or something on Netflix and relax, insha Allah happy

  • Aishah 2013

    May 12, 2013

    Ana think maybe I had 2 that went into spam..

  • Ruqayya

    May 12, 2013

    @Kim,
    Congradulations on the weight loss big grin

    @Felicia,
    SubhanAllah that made my heart hurt. How your friend can stay is beyond me.. maybe it’s because things are so new, or because we STILL do not have our own home, but I get jealous if my husband is spending too much time with his friends. Well at least I used to.
    We once went out and his friends were going to the same place and I felt soo left out that I still refuse to go along anymore unless I have to, and even then I bring a book. I can’t imagine how painful that would be for your friend to know he loves his other wife too and… nope I don’t even want to think about the having children thing sad I fear a second like that, how can any husband think that is acceptable?
    Very sad indeed. One of my many fears of polygyny was that my co (should I get on