“Marry a Pakistani Man? Beware!

polygamy 411“Marry a Pakistani Man? Beware!” Is a sizzling hot topic. Many Pakistani men come to the United States or the United Kingdom in search of a better life. To get the better life, some seek out women in the U.S. or the U.K for marriage. I will use the word “foreign” when I speak of the women or wives from the U.S. and the U.K.

The Pakistani men seem kind, sweet, charming and debonair. Little do some foreign women know that these men have snares. A foreign wife could find herself spun in a web of deception. Some Pakistani men are deceitful. Women especially from the U.S. and the U.K. should beware when it comes to marrying Pakistani men.

Polygamy 411 is a blog about polygamy. The blog has existed for over five years. A large percentage of our commentators from the U.S. or the U.K. married Pakistani men. We have learned that when some of these men marry foreign women, the men do not let these women know they already have wives and probably children that are in Pakistan. They are already married and their other marriage to the foreign women makes these Pakistani men polygamous. Sometimes these men never take the foreign wife to Pakistan to meet their families, relatives, and friends there. Many times the aforesaid people in Pakistan never know of the wife who is in the U.S. or the U.K. The foreign wife becomes a “secret wife.” More often than not, the Pakistani man is married to his first cousin in Pakistan. They had an “arranged marriage.”

A foreign woman who considers a Pakistani man for marriage should beware that he may one day say he must go back to Pakistan to marry his first cousin, as commanded by his mother, He gives the foreign wife excuses as to why he cannot defy his mother. The reason is cultural, but he may allude that it has to do with Islam when it does not. When the foreign wife learns of the arranged marriage between her husband and his first cousin, she becomes distraught. What should she do? She has already become emotionally invested, and has established a life with this man. She is left with a huge dilemma, which is extremely difficult and painful for her to resolve.

Why do these Pakistani men do this to foreign women? Many do this to get citizenship/naturalization/immigration status in the U.S. or U.K. They want a better life for themselves and their families back home in Pakistan. Some actually fall in love with the foreign women whom they married. Others do not. They simply get the immigration status they sought and then divorce the foreign women.

Any foreign woman who marries a Pakistani man should beware of the lies, deceit and betrayal that may await them. A foreign woman should investigate thoroughly the Pakistani man she intends to marry. She should make sure she meets his family, relatives, and friends in Pakistan. She should ask him if he is already married or if his family has arranged a marriage for him to take place in the future. She should secure her assets, for instance, keep her funds separate from his, or have a prenuptial agreement. Most importantly, she should act, using intellect and not emotions. These men are very suave and convincing.

I, in no way, assert that every Pakistani man is as I described above. I simply want you to note that based on information I have received on this blog, I have learned there are very many Pakistani men who have done all that I referenced above. We all know nothing is absolute except our Creator. I simply urge all women to beware when they consider  marriage to a Pakistani man.

The problem is so serious that the Muslim Minister Baroness Warsi spoke on it. Click link below to read the article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9275179/Some-Pakistani-men-see-white-women-as-fair-game-says-Baroness-Warsi.html

To learn more about the Baroness Warsi visit: http://www.sayeedawarsi.com/about/

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193 Comments

  • Mari2

    December 12, 2014

    @Gail,
    Thanks for your response. Yes I do think it really boils down to a cultural thing. It’s not that I don’t understand poverty, and honestly I haven’t walked in my MIL or future co-wife’s shoes so no I cannot really understand what they think from their/their parents’ perspective, nor can those in Pakistan understand what life, bills, taxes, working, rents, utilities, etc are all about in America either. I get that. I try. I really do. But even Pakistani Islam is so very different there. The Islam we can experience here in the US as women (MASHALLAH), is so very different from what women are allowed in Pakistan. M’s mom had never in all her life been allowed in a masjid in Pakistan. But here she can go every Friday if she chooses. Wonderful! And that makes me happy for her.

    At the same time, I become frustrated with my MIL and the family back in Pakistan because in my Western perspective they are far too needy of “things”. Not necessary things like food or education, but “wants” like ipads, the latest I phones, fancy cars, etc. Yes we would all desire that. Me too! But since I phones, fancy cars and things don’t fall off trees here, I make due with what I have which is a 2006 car and no i phone. I guess I just cannot figure out how to deal with the gimme, gimme nature of his people, and ask myself when enough will ever become enough. And personally, I find his family’s pooh pooh attitude regarding our gifts over the years as “not enough” as gauche, ugly, and downright ungrateful. Last year I flew to Pakistan (on my own dime) for 8 days with 2 suitcases loaded with toiletries, clothes, shoes, purses, toys, chocolates, etc. During my 8 days there, I bought his 2 sisters and his mother new suits, and I also handed his mother cash to offset my food costs. Yes, the hospitality was great. But 100 pounds of “stuff” and members of his family complained and are still complaining to this day that I didn’t bring enough.

  • Gail

    December 10, 2014

    Ana,
    U NAILED IT PERFECTLY for Mari2.I feel for her so strongly because I myself have been there I am still there in many many ways.
    I do not have a relationship with my husbands family at all.He does not discuss anything with me about them that is important he does not listen to me when I give him advises they r basically nonexistent to me at this point.Do I like it No but that is just the way it is because his family is not loyal or trustworthy.
    Mari2 I really do understand on a very deep level I believe how u r feeling.I know for me I feel hopeless to change the way I feel about them.I don’t know I see them and I just want to close the door and walk away.
    Listen one thing I am seeing in u and it is PERFECTLY OK to feel this way since u feel jaded in someways it the fact that I notice u r lashing out.I see u taking up for your husband like saying M said she had to work but her mother said either doctor or teacher not on a store.Listen in all seriousness most Pakistani woman don’t work so they would logically not expect to work until through school.U know they r just so different from us in so many ways.I think if she does come to USA u will have to be careful not to blow a gasket with her to be frank.I blew alot of gaskets with my excowife because she drove me crazy with her dang culture and belief systems.
    I caution u if u plan on staying in Polygamy don’t harp so much on those things.I know M is not financially sound I get it but thats M’s problem not yours.You will have to draw a line at how much u want to be involved.I am seeing alot of me in you and although I think u r a very nice person I think u r very strong willed and u like being in control.THe fastest way to get out of control is to get into your cowife and husbands details.
    I do think u owe it to the girl to tell her because it is the right thing to do but as far as concerning yourself with their details I would caution u to NOT fall in that trap.U will drive yourself NUTS seriously.

  • anabellah

    December 10, 2014

    Mari2,

    I’m very sorry you lost your post. It’s no fun; I know. I’ve been there and done that. It doesn’t appear when the proof (grey box) box is used that it keeps the changes that are made when one clicks return and save or whatever it is. I’ve noticed it. I don’t know if there is anything I can do about it. Insha Allah, I’ll look into it tomorrow.

    I can understand why to me you come across resentful. They are marrying this girl off to your husband as what “appears” to be a princess. She doesn’t know about you and neither does probably anyone else in Pakistan other than her mother and her brother who are keeping it hush, hush. It’s all a facade. They are making an appearance that cousin girl is marrying a cousin who went to the U.S. and is LIVING LARGE. Cousin girl and the family expect to live large, as well. To them, you don’t really exist in their minds.

    As Gail stated, normally what happens is the mother-in-laws conspire to get rid of the American wife, thinking she’s dispensable. Now, you not only have the mother-in-law wanting you gone, but her mother wants it, as well. With you out of the picture, there is more for them.

    You know your husband better than we do, will he get rid of you, if mommy tells him to? You don’t know him as well as Allah does, as Allah created him. Therefore, Allah knows best. He just may kick you to the curb and there wouldn’t be much you could do about it, as you don’t have a legal marriage license, to demand some recourse in the court of law with it.

    Even if your husband doesn’t divorce you, you appear to be there to help take care of yourself, and maybe help him take care of them. It’s not a team effort. It’s not polygamy according to the dictates of Islam. It’s some type of animal that is all about Pakistani custom. You are not respected by them as his wife. It’s all about blood ties and family to them. You don’t fit in.

    So, what do you do?http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_unsure.gif

  • Mari2

    December 10, 2014

    @Ana,
    I never said cousin girl was “lazy”. M said it. His mother said it. Her own brother said it. All M said to future MIL was that cousin girl would be expected to work. She, future MIL’s stipulation upon him was that cousin girl be a teacher or doctor and NOT work in a store. My point was that even in the USA we all have to begin our work experience somewhere. At no point in my life did I wake up with a master degree. Nope. I have been working since I was 14. Nanny. Farm hand. No matter. I worked my way thru my BS degree, my paralegal certification and I worked my way through my M.Ed. The point is if you want it, then you work for it. I’ve paid ridiculous interest rates, and YES Allah has helped me but he sure didn’t hand me my degrees on a silver platter. I worked 12 to 18 hours at two jobs while pregnant. I took no more than 3.5 to 4 weeks off after each of my c-sections. Allah blessed me with children, the end. So I stepped up.

  • Mari2

    December 10, 2014

    I just wrote a long response which I lost *sigh*. Anyway @ spirited, I not saying that cousin girl is to blame for her scoliosis. I blame her mom for denying, and insisting that all others deny, the deformity exists. However, the deformity will not go away. And like dark skin, the wrong caste, or any other imagined flaw that exists in Pakistan, his cousin’s marriageability is really a based upon her goods both physical and monetary. It’s not fair, but it is the reality there.

    Yes spirited there are many poor people in Pakistan. Cousin girl’s father is not one. As one of 2 brothers with 5 sisters, he inherited a shit ton of land. Even when when 3 out of 5 sisters were widowed with small children, neither brother stepped forward to help. M’s mother lived off the charity of neighbors and the occasional pot of rice from her elder brother. Times, they are a changing in Pakistan…sometimes older brothers lose their cush government jobs. Sometimes poor mothers/sisters end up with sons that are US citizens, by the grace of Allah. And when that happens, those poor boys who couldn’t make a cousin marriage to save their lives at age 19 become a hot commodity later. I would never look down on anyone because they are poor. I look down on her father and mother because while he was going hungry, they never put out their hand to feed. When he had to leave a private school after the death of his father, they never offered a hand to help him. But when he came to the US…all of a sudden they can’t stop asking him for things. So I do not look down on them for being “poor”. I look down on them for being hypocrites and greedy. Oh and by the way spirited I was at their “poor” home with 2 satellite dishes, 3 cars, servants, cows in the courtyard, acres of land, and motor bikes for younger sons.

  • anabellah

    December 10, 2014

    Gail,

    It would be good news to hear Pakistan is on its way to a promising future. Although, I’m a bit skeptical.

    Former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto was killed allegedly by Al Qaeda seven years ago (Dec. 2007) this month. Malala Yousafzai was shot in the head by the Taliban five years later (October 2012) – just 2 years ago. Although Malala won the “Nobel Peace Prize”, it is said many Pakistanis resent her. She is not received warmly by them.

    Below is a video about Benazir Bhutto. The news person said, “Life in Pakistan for a politician is very tough”.

    Link to article about Pakistani people resentment towards Malala Yousafzai

    http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/she-said/2014/oct/11/malala-made-history-but-there-is-resentment-not-pride-in-pakistan

  • Gail

    December 10, 2014

    Ana,
    I think it is very possible we will see Malala in the spotlight one of these days as Pakistan’s President.I have great hopes that Pakistan one day will become a better nation.I want so much for my children to go there and feel safe and enjoy their home.I love Pakistan so much it is also in my blood now.I am part of Pakistan as I fell in love there with my husband and I became pregnant there with my youngest son.I really do secretly hope and pray Pakistan will become better in the future for the people.

  • anabellah

    December 10, 2014

    Malala Yousafzai aspires to one day be Prime Minister of Pakistan

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30394129

  • anabellah

    December 9, 2014

    Mari2,

    I agree with those who say the problem seems to be with your husband. Yet, he really isn’t the total problem. He’s just being himself and who he was raised to be. He see his job as that of obeying mommy, and taking care of (Pakistani)family. They apparently don’t care how he does it, what it takes to do it, just as long as he gets it done. Some people are like it.

    There are some people who are takers and there are some people who are givers. There are some people who gives, but are hesitant to take; they don’t feel comfortable taking – I’m somewhat like the later. The world is made up of all kinds of people.

    I don’t think it’s easy to get some people to see what others go through unless they are up close and personal with it. I doubt your husband sits his family down and explain it to them like they are two years old about what it entails to get the things for them that they want that are above their needs. They want what the need and what they want.

    The cousin girl doesn’t really seem at fault. If she is disabled (her spine is crooked), how is she expected to work? She lives in a country in which women don’t have to work or can’t work or aren’t allowed to work. Is she lazy because of it http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_unsure.gif

    I don’t work. Am I lazy? Some people may think so. I think I am too LOL. I’ve paid my dues. I can afford to be lazy. So, does it make me wrong? Allah says in Quran that He made some people to work for others. We don’t all do the same thing.

    You beef is really with your husband. You married into a culture that you are going to have to learn to accept somehow or another or leave it. Leaving isn’t as easy as it sounds. Perhaps this is your test.

    Mari2, I suggest you do you and let them be. Thank Allah that He gave you your own. There is a saying that goes somewhat like, “God blessed the person (I substituted the word person for child) whose got his own.”
    Yeah, baby Yeah Baby

  • anabellah

    December 9, 2014

    Spirited, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    Nice post! http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_good.gif

    Although not good, I think it common for wives to look for fault in their cos. Is it right to do? No. Being a fault finder is a bad trait. As Gail stated, we sometimes battle with some negative characteristics in ourselves. I certainly do, all the time. It’s a blessing to recognize our faults and know enough to work on them. Life is a constant battle with ourselves, if we want Allah to purify our souls.

    Spirited, you told it like it ishttp://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_mail.gif. You said, “It’s just never right to be haughty about one’s body because you didn’t make it, Allah did, or your economic or health situation — those are also at His mercy. The human body can be easily damaged, paralyzed, or disfigured and no human knows what tomorrow brings.”

    The way to go, Spirited. You did that! You got that right! I needed to hear it myself. Thank you!!!

  • Gail

    December 9, 2014

    Spirited,
    U brought up an AMAZING point and that was about looking down on your cowife.
    I honestly don’t feel Mari2 is doing that because she didn’t mention what deformity the girl had and she didn’t like blast on the girl for that as I read it but nevertheless I want to say I was guilty of looking down on My Pakistani excowife for time and May G.D forgive me I still have to fight that nastiness inside of me.
    I never looked down on her until she started acting up and giving us a hard time then I started looking down on her in my heart.I actually thought in my mind about her that she is a poor uneducated village woman that is trying to be my equal.HOW DARE HERRRR even think she is at my level.I really looked down on her alot the last 3 yrs and although I have let alot of that go but I still do have issues with her acting so insensitive towards the children and to me.
    It is a very good point that u brought up and honestly I think all of us as that has gone through polygamy has thought nasty thoughts or jealous thoughts of r cowives at one time or the other.I think it is good if women recognize these negative thoughts and turn away from them.I really liked your post it is so true about people being poor and the girls family not knowing about Mari2 they would naturally act certain ways.I don’t know why but I feel like Mari2 MIL should be more respectful to Mari2 and her husband should see to that.
    I also think Mari2 should not worry about her husband because the truth of the situation is that all he really has to do is open his mouth and just tell the truth it really is not that big of deal.

  • Spirited

    December 9, 2014

    Salaam everyone,

    @Mari2, so, maybe this won’t be what you would like to hear, but it seems like your husband and his family are the problem, the cousin is an innocent woman, probably just hoping for the same as any woman wants.

    I also don’t see why you speak about her physical deformity like it’s some big bad secret sin of hers or something. It’s not her fault she has a deformity, there’s no reason to bring it up so often. You’ve been to Pakistan, right? You should know how hard it is to even afford food or find a job that pays enough for food for everyday, let alone for education. You should know the worthwhile schools are expensive because teachers need to eat too, but even that much is hard to come by for the poor. It doesn’t surprise me that If her family is poor, that she doesn’t have much of an education, if at all. Driving? In that region? You’ve been there, is it any wonder why MOST women in Pakistan (and India) don’t drive? Not to mention, a car is a luxury item. If they’re poor, do they even have a car they can spare for her to be driving around? Do they have extra funds to pay for gas? You should be quite aware of the insane inflation in the region, yet the wages remain low. If the girl’s family didn’t know the truth, why did you expect them to understand why your husband wasn’t doing more? Without knowing the truth, of course they would look to him to help them more. Also keep in mind, regular folk in Pakistan haven’t been out of the country, often not even out of the city they were born in. They hear about all the wealth those who go abroad come back with, see the big houses that get built and assume its easy for everyone who gets out. They don’t know about the hardships we face here and all the taxes and such. All they see is that $1 = about 100rupees, and that is sometimes the WEEKLY WAGE for the really poor (so like, $4 a month to live off of). I know people there who can only eat meat ONE day in the year — when they get a donation from Eid sacrifice animal (and that is If someone is kind enough to give them some because the sure can’t afford to buy an animal to sacrifice on their own).

    It’s good that you spoke up and explained everything to them, kudos for that since the coward you are married to didn’t do it himself, but much of what you wrote makes it sound like you look down on them as if they’re not worth kissing the ground you walk on. I might be getting the wrong vibe, but I’ve read your recent comment different times through the day and it gives the same impression. I mean, why do you need to pick at her faults? What difference does it make to you, except to help you feel superior? Honestly, “they better be thankful” ? Just because you’re doing decently, doesn’t mean you should be expecting them to bow to you or your husband. You could have been hit very hard by the economic collapse in the US, where would you have been then? Allah could turn your life completely around at any moment. If anything, you guys should be greatful to Allah that you still have the means to take care of yourselves. Not everyone is as lucky, even here.

    The cousin girl has a deformity, is poor, has a poor education, lives in a country with almost zero opportunity and you somehow expect her to be doing miracles? I really don’t get it. Maybe her family have seemed greedy but you clarified they were unaware of M’s marriage& they most likely don’t realize that it’s not as easy here as they may think, so that shouldn’t be such a sore spot. Your mother-in-law and husband are the people your disgust should be aimed at, in my opinion. And, OF COURSE your husband and his family have leverage (and don’t think they don’t know that already). The male’s side ALWAYS has leverage in Pakistan. Girls are seen as a burden due to marriage expense, and if one is not very pretty, or is divorced, it’s a million times harder to get married, let alone a deformity! She may as well be a leper in that society! You should count your blessings that Allah formed you whole and normal, not attack an innocent human for how Allah formed her. Maybe her mother gets mad at people bringing it up because, if you might not be aware, people with disabilities or deformities don’t like it to be the focus of their lives. The girl and her family are most likely well aware that your husband marrying her is a great favor to them, but that doesn’t mean she can’t be happy about her own marriage, something that might not have been possible otherwise because of the mentality of people in the country.

    In any case, I apologize if I got the wrong impression, but it’s still quite clear that your mother-in-law and husband are 100% at fault for your troubles due to being scheming, cowardly, and highly insensitive. I’m not really seeing any other issues at the moment. I suppose the rest would depend on the cousin’s behavior with you. If she causes problems, that would be unfortunate and probably too much ego (but I haven’t known people with disabilities or deformities to be egotistical, they are usually very kind, though sometimes they may try too hard to seem normal). If she is a decent, kind Muslim, you’ll probably have no problems with her marrying your husband. At least, no problems directly from her. Her family might be a pain, depending on how greedy they actually are & on how well her family understands your husband’s financial position (that he’s not made of $$, lol). It will be up to your mother-in-law and especially your husband to clarify these things as well as set limits and such. He really needs to step up and stop causing you so much grief by his acting like a weenie.

    Again, apologies if I got the wrong vibe from your post. I also want to apologize if I’ve misunderstood some stuff about your situation here at home. It’s just never right to be haughty about one’s body because you didn’t make it, Allah did, or your economic or health situation — those are also at His mercy. The human body can be easily damaged, paralyzed, or disfigured and no human knows what tomorrow brings.

  • Gail

    December 8, 2014

    Mari2,
    I totally get it and I respect u for coming forward and telling the brother.This is actually a good thing not a bad thing.It seems to me u are a really great wife to your husband.It makes much more sense that he was already fixed with her before your Nika as to why your mother inlaw is talking about it in front of u. I am like u I would have to tell I just couldn’t live not telling.I hope your cowife and u will get along after they r married.
    Honestly your mother inlaw seems uneducated the same like mine.Since u knew your hubby was fixed with cousin girl I would just tune your mother inlaw out if it were me at this point or feed her to the fish whichever u prefer.hahahaah

  • Mari2

    December 8, 2014

    I hate to get ugly like that, but as a person who has worked retail, waited tables, and scrimped my way thru college and has stood on her feet for 16 plus hours a day to make ends meet, I know exactly how hard M works. I GET IT. I’ve been there and done that so I have the utmost respect for his hard earned money. His mom? No. His mother in law? No. His brothers? Nope. His mom currently sits in my home and watches dramas on the ipad we have provided for her. And yes she is often bored but so sorry we have to do the silly working thing.

  • Mari2

    December 8, 2014

    @Ana, Gail, Spirited, and Coco,

    My nikah took place just right after engagement to cousin girl. M’s mom knows full well we are married. But it is in her interest to keep it a secret. All I can tell you is that a couple of weeks ago I just had it with the secrecy stuff so I told the brother of cousin girl the truth. I didn’t go into it flat out maliciously, but after he whined for months about how his mom was complaining how stingy M was being with money and he wouldn’t buy cousin girl a cell phone, blah ,blah. He lamented about how his dad didn’t work and they didn’t have money, and M was not giving enough to the family etc. Complain, complain, complain… So basically I lambasted bro of cousin girl and laid down the facts… his sister has a deformity everyone must deny because it will make her mom mad, but the deformity exists and isn’t going away. This makes her less able to get a good marriage outside the family. Cousin girl is from a poor family, they can’t afford shit, so they better be thankful, not crappy about what M does with his money. Cousin girl is no catch by US standards…she can’t speak English, her education is shit, she can’t drive, she doesn’t work, and she is “lazy” (per the description of her by my MIL). So basically she is useless here. I went on a tirade!

    Of course bro of cousin took my tirade directly to his mom as I assumed he would. Strangely enough, while she was upset about the turn of events, she said absolutely NOTHING to her husband who could call off the wedding (that he’s not paying for). Nor did she say one word to M’s mom. M was beyond furious that I would break protocol, and he feared a huge backlash that never materialized. In fact today he said to me “I can’t understand why there has been no problem about what you said. No one called my mom.” I’m like “Silly man, don’t you get it? You are the one with leverage in this situation. You don’t have to marry her and her mom realizes it.” Her mom will say nothing just as his mom will not either.

  • anabellah

    December 7, 2014

    Gail,

    I get it. It’s why I didn’t comment to him once I learned he was Gay. I was trying to think of something to say. I didn’t know what to say from a positive perspective. I was at a lose for words. I wasn’t about to tells him the position I hold about Gays, as I didn’t think it was relative. What went down here was way interesting, though. There were lessons in it for us all to learn. I think it’s nice that we can all agree to disagree and not take it too personally :-)

  • Gail

    December 7, 2014

    Ana,
    I won’t let the situation with Someone hold me back.I realize that I can help in some places and some places I just can’t.It was a good lesson learned I feel.In the future I will not comment if we get more Gays on the blog as I feel I just don’t have anything that could help them in a positive way .I am totally fine to just hang back at those time.

  • anabellah

    December 7, 2014

    coco, I like the little heart. It is soooo cute :-) Thank you

  • coco

    December 7, 2014

    Ana
    ❤️

  • anabellah

    December 7, 2014

    As Salaamu Alaikum,

    Coco and Spirited,

    You two being of Pakistani Origin are a wealth of information on the topic of Pakistan. I have learned so much on this blog about people from other countries other than the U.S. and about culture.I see the world through different eyes now.

    I’m so grateful to Allah for this blog and for all the totally awesome people who are here. Everyone is a class act. http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_rose.gif

    Mari2,

    If I’m not mistaken, your husband intends to bring the cousin wife to the U.S. He divorced the first wife who had the Marriage License. You have no Marriage License with him that would cause an issue with him wedding her legally and bringing her here. I think it’s why you have discussed with your husband that you want your own home and you intend not to take care of any children she may have. You intend not to financially care for her either. It appears the mother-in-law will come back to the U.S. and she will live with you, right?

  • coco

    December 7, 2014

    Mari2
    I was wondering what happened to you and just found you here :) Gail and Spirited were pretty spot on you both got me laughing with the “Why don’t u throw a nice log in the fire and announce u have decided to go to the wedding just for sh!ts and giggles!” & “Plus, the entire family & his friends would know ahead of time, yet the poor little innocent baby man didn’t.” Lmaooooooooo! Okay Mari2 I will give you a bit of a perspective of what I know since your husband is a Pakhtun as my Pathan. They function a bit differently compared to other Pakistani sub cultures such as Sindhi, Punjabi, Mohajir and Balouchi all of the latter are pretty cohesive when it comes to the culture, food and festivities involved in weddings. Tribal pakhtuns are more close to Middle Eastern, Afghanis in traditions. I Agree mostly these men are engaged to cousins at a young age like early teens so yes there are aware that some day they will have to marry in the future. They do wishfully think, assume and plan to delay the wedding in hopes that the girls side might just get fed up and marry elsewhere in the tribe but that usually doesn’t happen because of zabaan (their father’s word) At times they are also trapped with a simple Nikkah ceremony years before the wedding takes place to lock their son in the bond on any given Friday with a day or so notice since the elders don’t include the younger generations in the discussions or decisions made as they are only made to obey. Ana strongly pointed out to me in the past that they regard their parents to the level of a deity I couldn’t agree more. They are trained to not defy their parents or embarrass them in the tribe. As for wedding traditions and festivities the tribal Pakhtuns have very simple wedding ceremonies that are much more simpler to others in Pakistan, they mostly follow the tablighi jamaat who follow the ways of our Prophet Muhammed p.b.u.h when it comes to simplicity in weddings. So no lavish 50 dish buffets it’s pretty much a dastarkhan spread out in their homes with a few big serving trays that 3-4 people eat out of similar to Arabs. The clothes again aren’t exactly up to the minute bridal or groom wear. Lol For the groom think of it as simple cotton shalwar kameez that one would wear for a regular jumma prayer. Bridal wear is not as elaborate as other parts of Pakistan it’s ready made as opposed to custom made so not as intricate when it comes to hand-made embroideries no pure hand wowen fabrics that go along with big budget weddings. They mostly have completely segregated ceremonies a mehndi, nikkah/barat and valima in their own homes not marriage halls or receptions at 5 star hotels. I’m categorising the tribal Pakhtuns not the ones who live in the main city of Peshawar as they are more modern in their ways. So when it’s all in the family then you don’t need to be so meticulous or formal in the planning, a wedding can literally whip up in week! No kidding. Gail raised a valid point of whether your mother in law has your best interest in heart since she has the audacity to come live with you and then set up this wedding unless he was engaged before hand. Well BINGO! They probably were engaged before and your husband hoped this whole shenanigans would melt away. But sadly it just doesn’t. Just be happy that you both are living in the west so your kids won’t be subjected to such imposed unislamic traditions. I hope this gives you some clarity. Much love xo

  • Spirited

    December 7, 2014

    Salaam,

    @Ana, yeah the weddings in Pakistan are fun to go to. The families’ houses get majorly decorated, there’s games and even pranks on the couple, the food is always awesome of course and the clothes are beautiful. I don’t know if everyone does this (I’ve seen it at every wedding I’ve gone to on the guy’s side) they have a marching band lead the procession out from the groom’s house on the day of the wedding when he’s going to get the bride and sometimes, they get old-school and the groom will get a beautiful horse-drawn carriage to take the bride from her home to the wedding venue. Yep, it does take lots of work but it’s always great, and fun to meet so many people.

    I do believe they can get expensive for families these days, mostly because of the gifts — especially all the things the man’s family expects to get from the wife’s side. This is where the ugly head of greed shows up. I know of families who have treated the new wife like dirt because they didn’t get nice things. Sometimes they expect the new wife to practically furnish the family house with beds, refrigerator, sofas, washing machine, cookware…I even know a guy who treated his new wife like she was nothing even though her family provided all of the above EXCEPT a brand new car. He claimed he was humiliated because he had told his friends he was getting a new car through her and when he didn’t, they laughed at him. You can imagine how little I cared for his sob story. Because of this, he treated the girl so badly, she went back to her parents home & didn’t return to her husband. I believe he found someone with more money later & got his precious car. I haven’t spoken to this idiot in years, so I don’t know if the first girl divorced him or not. All the stuff a wife is expected to provide is one of the reasons sons are seen as boons and daughters as liabilities. My parents have a bank account in Pakistan that they only use to help poor people who need money to get decent gifts so their daughters can be married with some amount of respect in the husband’s home. It’s similar in India, which is where they had the banners advocating finding out a baby’s gender and abortion if it’s a girl — it was something like “Spend 500rupees now, save 1,000,000rupees later.” India also has a high rate of female infanticide (even by the mother). Check out a documentary called “it’s a girl” India and China are featured in it. At least Muslims have Islam to stop them, otherwise, with all the greed & lack of morality, I can imagine it would be an issue in Pakistan as well.

    Cousin marriages can also be a way to get by with fewer gifts since it’s family and they would know what your means are and wouldn’t want to bankrupt you since it’s all in the family — another benefit for the girl’s side in a cousin marriage, usually (along with knowing who you’re getting stuck with & knowing the family ahead of time).

    @Mari2, I really can’t imagine what it must be like for you right now. In some ways, I suppose it’s good that my husband did his affair and marriage in secret. He told me later that he did a simple marriage in front of an imam with witnesses and that was that. I agree with Ana that men who take more wives shouldn’t be celebrating like single men do. However, in your husband’s cousin’s situation, if she has a disability, I’m sure her family must be relieved that she’s able to get married at all and they’re probably happy and want to share that happiness with the village. Having a normal Pakistani wedding might be necessary in the scheme of village life too, who knows what the dynamics of life in that particular community are? Well, basically, I think you should continue doing what you’re doing and ignore it all to the best of your ability if that is what you feel gives you peace of mind. Considering he won’t be bringing her to the US, I doubt you’d have much to do with her anyway unless you went to Pakistan. Of course if she wanted to say hello or something, it would be good to be pleasant in return at least. That’s my take on it anyway.

    And as for your mother-in-law, that woman really sounds tactless and mean. http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_negative.gif I would just try to keep a minimum amount of contact with her…maybe she won’t be back very soon after this marriage? She should probably just stay in Pakistan with her new daughter-in-law, she sounds like the kind of person who would enjoy lording over a home and all goings-on like mothers-in-law are known to over there.

    Also, something you mentioned earlier, i was sorry to read of your bad experience in Pakistan but it does depend on where you were. There are lots of intelligent, fun to talk with women in the main cities (and I’ve come across witty and Quran-learned ones in villages too, though usually older women who aren’t busy with daily housework). I suppose it can be dull in Pakistan if you have no family or friends there, but if you do have blood relatives, it’s the best time ever. Electricity gone again? Let’s bust out the candles and ghost stories, or go sit on the roof watching the sky, or let’s go for a walk. I suppose things like the bathing situation depend on location and the plumbing obviously. One thing to note though is that using the bucket of warm water baths are a great way to conserve water & there is definitely a water problem in Pakistan due to India stealing the water that naturally flown into Pakistan. It’s also one of the reasons for the electricity problem, the electricity that water flow generates can’t come if there’s no water. They are trying to get alternative energy sources, I’ve seen some efforts for solar power for example, but it’s a poor country with government that pockets aid money instead of using it for the country. The average person tries their best with what they have.

    Anyway, I remembered that I was talking to some family members, and even one of my brothers-in-law agrees that the region might have been better off if they were still under British rule, lol. The greed and corruption in the government is so bad, some people would rather have stayed as a colony than a free country. Food for thought I guess.

  • anabellah

    December 7, 2014

    Gail,

    Don’t let the biatch session you had with “Someone” cramp your style. Continue to do you. It’s all good!

  • anabellah

    December 7, 2014

    Mari2,

    I had a feeling something isn’t sitting right with you, somewhat like Gail’s thinking. It is strange that your mother-in-law communicates with you, but all along is preparing this elaborate wedding for her son and the cousin. It has to be way awkward for you to be up close and personal with her and she’s doing all this planning. I can imagine you’d be happy for him to just go ahead and do it and get it over with, so you could put it behind you, and try to settle into normalcy. I still can’t wrap my head around the big weddings when men are already married http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_scratch.gif It’s just doesn’t sit well with me for a married man to have a big shindig. I’d imagine it’s not easy for the existing wife. It’s not easy for a wife to deal with any wedding that her husband has, but I think the quicker, easier, and smaller the better. He says he’s going to do it, do it and be done with it. The way to go. http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_wink.gif

    Mari2, maybe the mother-in-law just want to be traditional and it doesn’t matter that he’s married to you already since the cousin is handicapped/deformed or whatever and her chances of another suitor is not promising http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_unsure.gif

  • anabellah

    December 7, 2014

    Gail and Spirited,

    Thank you much for sharing what you know of how the whole wedding process in Pakistan works. I found it interesting and exciting; although I felt a bit stress thinking about all the work that goes into the preparation – all the clothes that are bought and the week long celebration The celebration is quite huge. WOW. It sounds very costly – hundreds of guests.

    One thing about it, the couples very rarely divorce from what I’ve learned here, so it’s not money wasted. I went to an ex-boyfriend sister’s wedding in the States years ago when I was in my early twenties. She had a nice size formal wedding that was quite expensive. She stayed married no longer than six months. I went to a party soon after the wedding and he was there with another girl sitting in his lap and they were kissing. I was in a state of shock. What a waste of money on that wedding.

    I enjoyed reading about the Pakistani style weddings and prep. The festivities sound like loads of fun. The nicest part is mom plans it all, so it takes a load off the bride and groom. Cool!

  • Spirited

    December 7, 2014

    Salaam,

    Hey guys, just giving my input as asked. :).

    yep I agree with Gail. I always have to shake my head at how often people seem to believe the lies coming out Pakistani men’s mouths, ESPECIALLY this one that they “suddenly” got married again and had no idea. That is 100% pure, refined, concentrated B.S. All you have to do is take a look at all the planning it takes for an average Pakistani wedding to know there’s no freaking way a guy would have no idea. Basically, take a western wedding x3 (three days) plus post-wedding customs and you’re looking at easily a week dedicated to it, and many times, literally hundreds of people invited. You can bet everyone involved would know to plan and make sure food, clothing, space, reservations, entertainment, gifts are all ready. How would the groom’s clothes be prepared without his knowledge? We’re not talking about going to the store & buying a tux. Pakistani suits are tailor-made for weddings, and unique for each person.

    Plus, the entire family & his friends would know ahead of time, yet the poor little innocent baby man didn’t. Rofl, yeeeeeah right. If you believe that, I’ve got a luxury yacht to sell you.

    About not having a set date yet, this sometimes depends on the preparations — especially clothes. As I said, wedding clothes and gift clothes, and new clothes to wear after the wedding are tailor-made (especially the 3 days wedding clothes, a different set for each day, both man and woman). This can take a loooooot of time depending on the time of year. Most families like to wait and make sure at least the clothes are ready before setting a date. It’s easier to SET the date later instead of having to CHANGE it if something doesn’t get done in time.

    I think that about covers it for what I had to add about that :)
    Of course Islamically, you just get your witnesses and you’re married but we’re talking Pakistani culture here lol.

  • Gail

    December 6, 2014

    Mari2,
    Are u going to the wedding?Why don’t u throw a nice log in the fire and announce u have decided to go to the wedding just for sh!ts and giggles!Stick to the story for awhile give them some good old fashion tension and see what comes out in the wash.
    You can find out alot of dirt that way.

  • Gail

    December 6, 2014

    Ana & Marie2,
    To my knowledge it don’t work that way on the wedding time.Now on the engagement u can say yes because that is just engagement not a big deal so to speak but not with the wedding.See here is the thing u don’t grow up and live in a home and be blind to what is expected and what is going on around u your entire life.These men know exactly whats going on and they have known their entire lives understand.That would be like u or I growing up in our families.We know r Families and we know what is expected and not expected and we know EXACTLY how r family works.Well it is the same for them also no difference.The men know ahead of time mom has fixed them and although they may tell their wives they don’t know and just show in Pakistan and boom they r married it don’t happen.Obviously the men call home and say Hey mom I am coming home for a visit on such and such date so that is moms Que to fix everything understand(the men r not blindsided) because they know their parents from birth.I hope I explained it well enough.
    Spirited or Coco might have more to add since they r Pakistani Origin.I have personally never seen it happen.A Pakistani wedding is a huge deal and they r very big and the celebrations go on for days.
    See in Mari2 husband case his mom will go back to Pakistan and arrange the wedding and call him there.
    What I don’t understand is and Lord I hate to say it after just coming off this B@tch session with Someone but Mari2 something I think u r overlooking here(or maybe not not sure) is how can your mother inlaw DARE come stay with u and fix a second marriage with his Pakistani cousin? I wanted to say something before on this topic but I kept my mouth close in case it would hurt your feelings but Girl unless he was engaged to the Pakistani cousin before he married u then I believe your mother inlaw does not have your best interest at heart.
    Under no circumstances after her son is already married should she interfere and plan for him to marry in the family unless the family simply does not secretly approve of the foreign wife.
    Think about it Pakistani woman on the whole loath/hate Polygamy and DO NOT accept it.If his mother or her daughters were put in a situation like the one they have put u in they would be screaming their fool heads off understand?So the real question is why are they doing something to u that they would never accept themselves?Your husband knows and understands everything and he is not innocent in this insanity.
    I am never against Polygamy I actually love the concept however I loath being lied and manipulated to like I am an idiot.I believe they r trying to Manipulate u like my inlaws did with me and I believe u understand this on some level and through your dreams and thoughts u know things just don’t add up and are trying to connect the Dots.
    I hope this helps.

  • anabellah

    December 6, 2014

    Mari2,

    It may very well work that way. A person shows up and they get married and there never was a date. Remember, some people here have said their husbands went home to Pakistan or India for a routine visit and, unbeknownst to them, a wedding had been planned for them and they ended up getting married while there. The husbands then come home to the U.S. and tells his now other wife what happened. How bizarre it that?

    Gail may know, as well, whether it’s quite commonly done that way or not. Insha Allah, Aysh will respond.

  • Mari2

    December 6, 2014

    Aysh,
    You are absolutely dead on with your synopsis of the conversation between M and his mom. He himself said “she said it kinda mad” which in Paki-speak probably means: do as I say. MIL will be leaving in January to go back and create a wedding (btw, why are the dates so tentative and why is there never an actual DATE?). Does someone just show up one day and declare: Today you get married! So very odd. No planning and no hella foresight either. But that is M’s problem. Not mine.

  • anabellah

    December 3, 2014

    Aysh,

    Don’t mention it. This blog wouldn’t be what it is without you and everyone who has contributes by writing http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_mail.gifand sharing their words and knowledge. It’s what we’re all about – team work. It’s beautiful! Alhumdulliah!!!

  • Aysh

    December 3, 2014

    And thankyou anabellah for having the site and everyone who shares their experiences. You helped my situation alot.

  • Aysh

    December 3, 2014

    Hello again,

    Mari2,

    I don’t think his mum was giving him an out when she said “if you want to live the american life tell me we’ll cancel the wedding”.

    I think it was an insult, an ultimatum and a handful of manipulation thrown in!!!!

    In other words she was implying he didn’t have to marry cousin, but that would mean he wouldnt be one of them. That he no longer belonged or fitted in because he had become “americanised”.

    Im starting to feel luckier by the day I finished things with my Mr P. Man, they dont like taking no for an answer!!! Its like he cant believe Im dont want him. Like he should be the only one to choose such things!!!!

  • Mari2

    December 3, 2014

    @Ana,
    I don’t know how I can take these people either except to remember that when my grandfather was a G1 born in USA, and his father (a freshie) took in every cousin, or kinda cousin from Ireland into their home. Some were actually grateful, but most according to my grandfather, were “not worth crossing the road for”, and “robbed us while we slept”. And after my grandfather’s experiences, as well as my current experiences of trying to help others from M’s country, I so totally get what my grandfather was saying.

  • anabellah

    December 3, 2014

    Mari2,

    You’re killing me. LOL I don’t know how much more I can take about these people. Ooooh my goodness. They must have thought he was Santa Clause. LOL I don’t know how you maintain your sanity. You are one heck of a strong woman. Salute!!! :-)

  • anabellah

    December 3, 2014

    Mari2,

    I was asking a rhetorical question when I asked you where your husband’s mother will be on the Day of Judgement. He has made life all about his mother, but she will not be there with her son when he’s standing before Allah swt for an account of his deeds. We’ll be there bare and alone the way Allah created us.

    Mari2, I thought for once someone (Zaisha) was speaking about a decent Pakistani man (her husband) until she dropped the bomb on us (in the discussion section). She said her Pakistani husband had uprooted her from her home in the U.K. and dumped her in Spain to be away from him and his first wife. It was the ultimate shockeroo for me. The audacity of that #$*( Sigh

  • Mari2

    December 3, 2014

    And whether or not M’s mom gave him an “out”, he’s still going through with the cousin marriage. He bought the ticket home. Yet at the same time he is worried about bringing enough gifts. Seems like last year when he and I went and dragged 4 large (200 lbs total) suitcases FULL of shoes, candy, cosmetics, purses, toiletries, cell phones, clothing etc. it was NOT enough. Cousins reprimanded him for not bringing them cell phones or ipads. An aunt yelled at him because “you didn’t even give my son a chocolate”. Friends laughed at him and said things like “You live in the US and you bring us nothing?” Family members would invite him for dinners out or trips and expect him to pay. Family members would show up and ask him for loans to the tune of 300K to start a business. M said to me today, “I just don’t get why my family is so greedy. They never helped my mom when we were hungry. Why are pakistani people like this?”

  • Mari2

    December 3, 2014

    @Ana
    I deleted the link because the episode I hoped to upload was messed up. Sorry.

  • Mari2

    December 3, 2014

    @Ana,
    I shall worry only about my day of judgement. Honestly I don’t expect a big turnout. I would hope since neither m nor his mother are my lords, they won’t be there.

    As for blasphemy, the Monty Python movie: Life of Brian has a fabulous episode called “Stoning”. What an appropriate example of “blasphemy” in Pakistan. The movie is satire. But current attitudes in Pakistan have brought satire into reality. The more I think about my experiences in and with people from Pakistan, the more I realize I am somehow living in a satirical skit. You can find the episode on you tube.

  • anabellah

    December 3, 2014

    Mari2, As Salaamu Alaikum,

    Insha Allah, you have a copy of the comment you just made. I clicked on the link to the video to watch it before approving it and then when I clicked out the video your comment was gonehttp://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_unsure.gif It’s the first time it’s ever happened to me. I apologize, if you must write it again sigh

  • anabellah

    December 2, 2014

    I thought the below article was interesting in that it makes us aware of how important “Freedom of Speech” is in countries such as the U.S.

    It’s incredible what people in other countries classify as “Blasphemy”. People in some countries are imprisoned or sentenced to death for what I see as nonsense. It’s bizarre to say the least.

  • anabellah

    December 2, 2014

    Mari2,

    Where will his mother be on the Day of Judgment when he is standing in front of Allah bare and alone? Where will his lord (mum) be then? He really must not see that he has made his mother his lord. He fears his mother more than he fears Allah, if he fears Allah at all. How sad.

  • Mari2

    December 1, 2014

    Aysh,
    I appreciate your assessment as it does ring true in my situation. There really is a ton of guilt and manipulation laid upon sons. Honestly, IMO it is unfair to the men. M. is actually afraid to try to get out of marriage to cousin girl because “if I make things bad and something happens to my mom, I will regret not listening to her”. I thought Catholics had the corner on guilt. Yesterday MIL said to him, “if you want to be in an American relationship then tell me so we can end the marriage to your cousin.” What did he say? Nothing. Why?(which was my question) According to M he said nothing because he couldn’t figure out if his mom was mad or not when she said it. He wasn’t sure if she really meant what she was suggesting or testing him. So I asked him “Did you ask her if she was seriously giving you an out?” M’s reply “I can’t talk to her like that?” Shoot. Me. Now.

  • anabellah

    November 29, 2014

    Aysh,

    It’s an interesting assessment you made. With a step-aunt of mine, I saw what you described. She was a single mom. When her son was a teenager, she birthed a daughter. I saw how her son took on the husband role (without the sex, I’d imagine and hope polygamy 411 ) and the father role to his younger sister. He basically took the lead role in the family to the point she’d have to consult him about everything. It was weird.

    I think what happens in Pakistan is a “vicious cycle”, as you stated, but imbedded in culture – Pakistani way of life. I’ve learned from reading peoples comments on this blog that the mother has much control of the lives of their children. The mothers believe they own their children’s lives. They tell the males when to marry and to whom. They tell the son and his wife when to have grandchildren. They probably EXPECT their sons to leave Pakistan for foreign lands to make the money or find money to send back home. The mothers apparently don’t care how their sons do it or who they walk on or over to get it, just as long as they get it.

    The thing is we know how the men think of and feel about females. Yet, the females in the U.S., U.K. or Europe think these men only feel the way they do about their own (Pakistani women) when it’s ingrained in them to feel the same way about all women – It’s how I see it. There are exceptions and it would occur with the men who actually break away from the cycle. They don’t go back to Pakistan and acquiesce to mother or if they do, end up divorcing the Pakistani wife and settle into the American way.

  • Aysh

    November 28, 2014

    I think this “mommy dearest” is a viscious cycle.

    Child sees mum treated badly by dad. Child grows up wanting to protect and respect mum. Then child marries but continues running after mum, doing exactly what she says. In doing so he treats his wife badly. Their children grow up with the same complex.

    Even in western countries Ive seen children become surrogate “partners” to their mum. Often when mum is a single parent. Its changing relationships and redponsibilities and will have long term consequences in society.

    Parent, child, husband/wife roles get all twisted up.

  • Gail

    November 28, 2014

    Mari2,
    Dang girl tell us how u really feel.hahaha!!!
    Seriously though I am sorry he is talking like that I can imagine how that would be the last thing u need or want to hear right now.I am very happy to know at least u r financially fine.

  • anabellah

    November 28, 2014

    Polygamy is a beautiful thing. It increases women’s awareness. It gives women a wake up call.http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_yahoo.gif We need to wake up and smell the coffee Good Morning Coffee We’ve been asleep way too long

  • anabellah

    November 28, 2014

    Mari2,

    You’re just having one of “THOSE DAYS”. We all have them from time to time. You’ll begin to look forward to his trips to Pakistan before long LOL You’ll be like – Yeah Baby

    I just don’t appreciate the way it seems Pakistani people are all about themselves and their families and they seem to think everyone else out there in the world are there for their use. To keep it all in the family is not an Islamic concept. We’re suppose to know one another; marry Muslims whomever they are; treat everyone with kindness and justice.

    It’s weird to find a country where the people are ALL just about themselves. It’s jacked up to have to always question their sincerity and intenthttp://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_negative.gif Perhaps it is the same in other countries as well; I just don’t know.

  • Mari2

    November 28, 2014

    I pray Allah will forgive me, but as of late, I seem to have shed my “good pakistani-like, wife” mantle and have entered into the throes of “petulant child” syndrome. Or maybe I can just label my feelings as ” How the f&^K did I end up here in my own home while my husband tells me again how much better women in pakistan appreciate their husbands.” You know, women in Pakistan are soooo grateful, and we women in America suffer from horrible traits called “choice”, “education” and “voice”. Apparently, my ability to determine what I will or will not put up with, in combination with my own ability to support myself, is a “flaw”. Sometimes M pisses me off so bad. Maybe it’s best he return to Pakistan to marry his spine crooked cousin (the invisible/obvious issue no member of his family seems to see). If he never came back, I would not suffer one whit financially. I see the writing on the wall now.

  • anabellah

    November 28, 2014

    Mari2, Wa Alaikum As Salaam,

    That was some depressing stuff you depicted. What a downer Very Sad Thank you must for your honesty and straightforwardness. I appreciate it very much. Without going there, I got a look at Pakistan through your eyes.

    I’d be disenchanted to go there and learn practically no one there reads the Quran. I’m not really that surprised any more, as one thing I have learned from speaking to people on this blog and from people in real life is that it’s not unusual that many Muslims never have read the Quran. I suppose they rely on word of mouth (which many times the information is cultural in nature). They don’t seek knowledge on their own – read and learn for themselves.

    The sad part about it is the ignoramuses out there want to bad mouth the people who read the (Quran) word of Allah who is God, and want to live the Quran. Then they want me to commit shirk on top of it. They want me to equate man-made books with the Quran. Well, I guess if they’ve never read Quran, they wouldn’t know what “shirk” is. I guess they haven’t read the Quran because mostly everyone out there identifies with a sect, which Allah tells us not to do – but, how would they know it, if they never read the Quran?

    If the masses think I’m wrong, then I know I’m right. Alhumdulliah. I thank Allah much for creating me the way He created me and blessed me to know the TRUTH.

    Mari2, thank you again for sharing your experience of Pakistan with us.

  • Mari2

    November 28, 2014

    And gaining a mother-in-laws blessing? Why? You are not a cousin girl who has to find a man to support her quickly. Why is it so important to you? She is in a prison, you are not. She is closed off from reasonable access to all things pro-women (health care, education, freedom of movement etc.), so why must you or why do you want to meet her? What do you gain? Do you want her to come to the US and live with you? Are you ready for that? Sam would verily love for his mother to love you. But remember, she is NOT in America she is in Pakistan, and she has her own agenda which you cannot understand. Also, no matter how long Sam has been here, and no matter how many relationships he may have had…his mother will come first. Maybe he has to marry a cousin in Pakistan, maybe not. Maybe he just doesn’t want to marry because he’s fed up trying to foot 2 countries and cultures. Who knows.

  • Mari2

    November 28, 2014

    Salam to all,

    Would I revisit Pakistan? No. Though the shopping was awesome, food good, and family members gracious and nice, the answer is still “no”. I was in KPK, an area in which the St. Dept pretty much declares “you’re on your own”. Honestly, despite the shopping excursions, the way of life for women there depresses me too much. What a dull, brain-numbing existence. The cold of winter with no heat, the load shedding, no access to showers (and a bucket of warm water will NOT sufficiently remove shampoo from your hair), everything is so dusty and dirty and threadbare. There is no freedom there at all…no freedom of thought, no access to acceptable education, no witty chatter of any sort. Dull, intelligently flat and dusty would be how I describe my time there. As a woman one would be hard-pressed to find another woman there in which to have a conversation with about the Quran. No women read the Quran there, none have ever been to masjid in their lives. Hell, most of the men haven’t read the Quran either. The entire place is tribal and backwards and apparently, despite decades of British colonization, learned nothing.

  • anabellah

    November 28, 2014

    ashes,

    You have a good game plan. Insha Allah (God willing) you’ll stick with it. Be optimistic. All he may need is for you to put your foot down. No one likes ultimatums, but they sometimes are necessary. If it’s not what he needs and you need to walk (away from the relationship), don’t blame yourself, nor blame him, nor blame anyone. It simply would be he wasn’t the one Allah had selected for you, nor you for him. It’s as simply as that. It would have nothing to do with anything about you.

    You said you would feel you weren’t good enough. It wouldn’t be the case. If you look at it that way, you will take a beaten that you’d give yourself. You’d constantly try to figure out what went wrong, when nothing went wrong. It all went right. Anyhow it turns out, ashes, it will be goodhttp://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_good.gif

    Don’t have expectations. It’s what trips us up all the time. There is no perfect life. No one has an ideal life. Some people say life throws us curve balls. Life is simply full of trials and tribulations. Remember, this is planet earth, not Paradise

  • ashes

    November 28, 2014

    Ana,

    Agreed. I know what discussions to have,what to point out and to stick to my summer deadline and not make myself a fool by giving any kind of extension. My only hope is that if he really doesn’t plan to marry me this summer, that he speaks up NOW during the many discussions we will continue to have instead of saying yes yes yes then no come summer and dragging it out. I’m going to try not to waste too much time analyzing why he might marry me or all the reasons why he might not -I’ll just stick to having discussions to make sure we’re on track, be brutally honest with him and believe him if he says we’re on. That said, if we reach our agreed upon date in summer and it doesn’t happen, that’s that, I will say to him I’m wasting too much time on him, there’s no reason for me to see him anymore without marriage and walk away. I really will do this. Although it will hurt to walk away, the hurt of continuing a relationship with someone who can’t commit is even more hurtful than walking away as it says to me I’m not good enough. Everything everyone has said is of importance to me and I’ll be bringing it up in our discussions. :)

  • anabellah

    November 28, 2014

    ashes,

    You said, “conversations ARE sometimes uncomfortable and scary as you’re discussing things that could mean you go your separate ways.” Conversations such as it certainly are “uncomfortable and scary”. We fear the worse and we fear knowing the truth as the truth sometimes hurt. I hate discussions such as it. it’s awkward and stressful, but one has to do what one has to do. I hope you get the answer you’re looking for. You’ll get the answer you need. Stay strong. Whatever it will be would be best for you.

  • anabellah

    November 28, 2014

    Dear Gail,

    It was so sweet of you to share your story with us. I must say, though, you did good by leaving the past in the past. We can’t repeat the past. I think when people try to they ruin the memory of what was. What “was” yesterday was for then and there. At least you had closure, so you mustn’t live the rest of your life wondering.

    What you said to ashes is true. When people love each other and they just know they are meant to be together, they BOTH know it. They jump on it. It’s fairly easy. I just hate knowing people string others along for their own benefit. I could understand ashes not wanting to put pressure on Sam, and want it to be his idea about marriage, but many a woman has had to tell a man to “sh!t or get off the pot”. Those women whom he was involved with before ashes, probably was in love with him and expecting a future with him the same as ashes. They were able to get out of the relationship (thank Allah much) before they spent most of their lives WAITING for him. Firstly, he knows what is expected of him as a Muslim man and what is expected of him based on his culture. He wants to have the best of ALL world; it’s apparent. There is no money issue standing in the way; they have jobs; citizenship is no issue; they have places to live; what’s the hold up? It’s not meant to be. It’s the way I see it.

    If he’s willing to marry, maybe she should go with it. She should just be prepared for surprises, and be willing to accept whatever may happen (such as a cousin wife). She first has to get to first base with the marriage. I recommend ashes gives him no more time past June. June will be here before she knows it. I suggest she listen to know excuse from him. We could only make suggestions and recommendations. Allah as already decided what it will be.

    One of my moms friends had lived with a man for over 20 years. One day he met another woman and married her within a month. Needless to say, my mom’s friend was devastated. Could you imagine? How sad is it? It happens.

  • ashes

    November 28, 2014

    Ana and Aysh,

    I only got his side of the story of past relationships and I wonder what their side would be. Especially for the last girl to freak out so badly to the point of sending nude pics – she was pushed to a point of doing a crazy act. Someone doesn’t just go to that extreme over someone staying a few extra days and missing a birthday. I’m sure things were building perhaps she found herself in the same position as me and simple couldn’t take it any longer. I always knew this summer would be my deadline, but now I stand 100x more firm in my decision after talking to all of you. Things need to change when he comes home, he needs to realize I get to go to Islamabad and giving me an exact date of marriage otherwise there’s no point to wait till summer. You all are so right, he’s just a user if he can’t do this after almost 3 years of being together (by this summer it’ll be 3 years).

    Gail,

    Wow, what a story! Sometimes I think how life would be different if one little thing didn’t happen. I think how would my life be different if I weren’t with Sam. Where would I be? Would I be with someone else/married with kids? Would I be alone? Would I be a teacher -Sam is the one to convince me to apply for teaching. It’s what I went to school for, but after graduating I spend 3 years working another job. Sometimes it’s such a neat experience to get in touch with people from the past that you could have very well ended up with. It becomes even more surreal when that person says, hey lets marry!

    It’s true, if a person has intentions to marry, it doesn’t take forever and they are willing to make the commitment. You all know Islam is new to me and I’m still at the point where I would feel odd having someone marry me if I knew them any less than a year minimum. However, now that we’re approaching the 3 year mark, this is a mark that is universally accepted as we should be married by now! I used to be shy to approach the subject and although I forced the conversations, I was very much shy to be talking about marriage. You all are making me so confident to have discussions with him and ask why isn’t ABC happening and look him dead in the eye till he gives me an answer. and then press further! To not just be ok with him saying of course I promise it’ll happen by summer. But to tell him point blank why it needs to happen by then and how he doesn’t have any excuse.

    I’m learning there’s no reason to be shy and not press for answers. We’ve had discussions before but i’m so nice I just lightly discuss things and don’t dig deeper. These conversations ARE sometimes uncomfortable and scary as you’re discussing things that could mean you go your separate ways. It’s better to know now than later after you wasted years of your life.

    Gail… I’m a little surprised you turned this guy down after you spent sooo many years thinking and crying over him. Who knows how much he changed over the years and if that would have been a good call, but it’s surprising you cut things off. Especially when you were about to get a divorce from your husband at the time.

  • Gail

    November 28, 2014

    Ashes,
    I am seeing this the same as Ana.His past relationship issues seem to be screaming that he has commitment issues.I assume he is not a virgin since u mentioned he his ex had nude photos of him which again says alot and screams he is very casual in his thinking as far as sex goes.
    I understand how u feel about feeling so pushy when it shouldn’t be this way.
    I am going to be 100% honest here. Two years ago I found my first love on FB after 28 years.I grew up with this person and I loved him I still do love him and I will always love him.If there is a such thing as soul mates in this world he is mine understand.I should mention we were each others first sexual relation also so our bond was off the charts.Now in saying that I was separated from my husband at the time I found my first love.Not physically separated but in the process to separate and divorce.Over the years I had tried so many times to find my first love and I even ended my first marriage because I could not love my first husband because my heart was with my first love.
    Long story short one night I typed in his name and by some crazy miracle his FB came up I was stunned.I kid u not i sat there 3 hours just staring and going through every single bit of his FB.After 3 hours I decided to comment on his FB and the next day he responded to me asking me if he knew me.I played it off and told him no that I just saw him on a friends list and decided to chat.He asid ok so we start chatting and even though I was 99.9% positive it was him I still was in shock that maybe it wasn’t him.I just could not wrap my brain that i had found him and I was so shocked and happy.I forgot what happy even felt like until I started talking to him.
    We chatted for 3 days and in that 3 days I got to know what had happened to him.I was so much curious and dying to know how his life turned out and if was married had kids etc..On the second day he come on at 1 am in the morning telling me he can’t sleep and he confessed to me I was on his mind that entire day and so much so he had to come see if I was online.He flat asked me are u certain I don’t know u.I got freak out and said no no.I know what happen I was asking him questions about his past to find out answers but in a very casual way like whats your favorite song etc.. he told me then I told him the song he used to sing to me.Then I would ask something stupid and Random to through him off like what was his favorite color just to keep his brain off trying to figure out.
    After the third day he flat ask me if he could meet me.I got freak out because I never thought I would talk to him more than that one night much less him wanting to meet me this unknown person.
    He told me he said I don’t know what it is but I feel like I know u and I want to meet u if u r agree.I got scared and I start thinking crap I told him I live in New York and he is in Michigan he is dead serious.I made the choice to come clean and tell him who I really was.
    I said I have to tell u something.He said what I said I am pretty sure I do know u.HE said OHHH “WHO ARE YOU” I said well I am 99.9% u are the right person but may I ask u a personal question and he said yes.I then proceeded to ask him if he had ever lived in some apartments growing up and he said yes.I said ok would u please tell me the name of the apartment complex and he did.Then I told him yes I know u and he again he said “Who are you” I then told him I am a little girl u once knew.He said sorry that doesn’t help I knew alot of people.Then I told him my first name and in the very next second he typed in my full name.I was so terrified that this boy that I had loved all my life would not even remember me as crazy as that sounds since we grew up together and were each others first everything.
    Anyway he proceeded to tell me that he had been looking for me for years and I told him I also had been looking he told me every single time he came home from Michigan he asked about me but I just stayed married and told me who he asked which happened to be my 1st husbands bestfriend.I was shocked and mortified that he knew where i was but did not approach me,He told me he waited for yrs thinking I would divorce but I didn’t.I told him I see no reason to divorce because I always wanted him and I could not find him.I told him I contacted his mother and she told me he never married and he was living in Michigan.I gave her my contact number to give to him and I waited and waited on him to call me but the call never came so I divorced my 1st husband and moved on with my life and met and married my second husband.He became silent trying to piece together the time frame I called and not figuring out why his mother did not tell him about my call.He then figured out that was the time his mom was very sick and died shortly after I had called her.He said why did u not tell me right up front it was u and my reply was because we fought all those years ago and u told me u never wanted to see me or talk to me in this lifetime and when I called your mom u did not return my call I assumed u meant it.He said he didn’t even remember that conversation which was so heartbreaking because I cried everynight for 10 yrs straight thinking he never loved me.
    I told him I tried to call him so many times over the years and I confessed that I called his home and hung up like 3 or 4 times a year just to hear his voice so I could carry on with my life.He types in his phone number and tells me to call him.Obviously I run not walk to grab my phone and after 28 yrs for the first time we hear each other voices and it was the closest thing to heaven I could ever describe.We chatted for about an hour and he said he had to run for work but he would call me as soon as he got a break.Needless to say he called me after a few hours and he said he had to see me.I got freak out because he asked me if I was single and I flat lied and said yeah.I was in shock and had no way of even to start to tell him my story. Long story short he came out and told me he just had to get to me and I told him WAITTTT I am not young anymore and our choice to have sex cost me my life I told him straight I learned my lesson regarding sex outside marriage etc..He got taken aback and replied “I am telling u I can’t wait How fast can we MARRY” I could not believe my ears within less than a week from us finding each other this man that had never married was ready to get in his vehicle and come straight to me on the other side of the country and marry me.
    Needless to say I had to tell him the entire truth about my life he was so sweet and waited on me for 6 months thinking I would run for divorce and we would marry.
    Believe me I wanted to more than anything but my husband was being so cruel to me and my child came in the middle.I figured out I am a weak person and I deserve the life I got for being so weak.
    I don’t mean that in a feel sorry for me kind of way it is the truth and I see the truth now.My way was made clear to go to him and I was not strong and I did not trust on my love.
    Anyway back on track my point is this when u love someone nothing has to be forced it just flows so easy and so beautiful and the man knows really fast and he will jump fast if he wants u.
    Sorry for the long story.

  • anabellah

    November 28, 2014

    ashes,

    It’s disconcerting to know that he was in a few long term relationships before you and never committed. It’s says a lot about him. He’s Muslim and, as you probably know, dating is taboo. He fits the bill of wanting to be free and live the America way. He’s not about Islam, which is typical for many Pakistani’s. It’ all about culture. He has no problems having girlfriends, but don’t want marriage unless he has a marriage in Pakistan already or intends to.

    The one girlfriend possibly was angry that he wouldn’t take her to Pakistan and then had the audacity to prolong the trip, which interfered with the celebration of her birthday. With the other, eight months of dating is definitely long enough to know about a person to determine whether to wed or not. We’re to marry and then it’s when we get to know our spouses. We only need to know enough to determine whether we may have the right fit to make a commitment. The fact the one had nude pics of him, tells a lot, as well. Insha Allah, you definitely need to get a commitment and wed or move on with your life. Why get stuck with him jerking around with your life??? It sucks… Life is too short to get played. It’s a bummer…

  • Aysh

    November 28, 2014

    Thats intetesting Ashes. The 2nd relationship ended as he didnt want to commit. The 3rd 2yr relationship ended over family issues!

    That last one is a big clue. Most women wouldnt get upset if their bf stayed on to care for a sick mom, but she went nuts on him. That sounds like she had long term issues with his family and that was the final red card? You said they had been arguing alot. I wonder if it was about his family they were arguing about?

    Did that gf talk, meet his family or go to Pakistan? Maybe ask him.

    Sending naked photos is really vindictive, nasty. Sounds like someone who felt really grieved not just upset he missed her birthday. Makes me wonder what enraged her so badly.

  • Gail

    November 28, 2014

    Ashes,
    See that whats I’m talking about.See how his mom gets on the phone and says she misses u and wants u there yet her son wont allow it.Don’t take this wrong but that kind of crap makes me want to GAG when they put their mothers on the phone.I always get this image of them telling mom before the girl calls the problem and whats going on and I can just see the mom smile and say let me handle the little ignorant fool smiling and laughing at her son.
    I am sure u can clearly tell what I think of Pakistani smooshing mother inlaws.lol

  • anabellah

    November 28, 2014

    ashes,

    Retirement is absolutely delightful. I am so much into leisure living, I can’t get inspired enough to devote the time and attention needed to run my businesses. Looks like I’m going to have to hire people to do it.

    ashes, Sam’s history with the ladies is more evidence he’s a player. It’s not looking good for you. I don’t want to burst your bubble. I just want to call it as I see it.

  • ashes

    November 28, 2014

    Gail,

    I’ll let him chase when he comes back. Luckily, I’m so busy with work that it’s easy to justify to myself to not even waste my time hanging with him if there’s no future.

    Aysh,

    I did ask Sam once if his parent’s own marriage put him off -believe it or not I can’t remember his reply! I better ask again. He had three girlfriends previous to me. The first he dated in university but things just fizzled out and he moved state for his job after graduation. The next girl he dated for 8 months, she was a kind person, but one day they went for a hike and she slipped on some rocks next to a waterfall -I guess it was high enough that he thought there was no way she’d survive but she did. By some miracle he says a Dr. happened to be towards the base of the falls and held her steady till they flew her to the hospital. After she got out, her life changed and she wanted to marry immediately or that was that. Since they only dated for 8 months he said he wasn’t comfortable to commit and that at this point in his life he wasn’t sure if he was going to move back to be closer to family. They went their separate ways.

    The final girl, he dated just prior to me, he was in a relationship for just about 2 years. Things started going downhill since arguments were common, the final straw was when he went to visit his mom in Islamabad. He was supposed to be back for his girlfriends birthday but his mom got sick and he wanted to take care of her for a few extra days -the girlfriend freaked, started saying negative things about his culture, went on his work e-mail and sent nude pics of him to all his contacts! He had to get a restraining order.

    Sam just made it to Islamabad and his mom wished me on the phone (he has to translate a little since she doesn’t speak good english) how much she misses me, loves me and wants me there right now. Yehhh, I do too, ami! Sure wish your son would let me! :p

    I’m touched by how you all take so much time to give great advice! I sure hope everyone is having a relaxing day. l’m cozy in my pjs watching TV, drinking tea and snacking. All I need is a massage chair and I’m set. It must be heaven to be retired! :)

  • Aysh

    November 27, 2014

    Sorry 1 more thing.

    From my experience people avoid conversations if they have something to hide. Especially if your questions are reasonable.

    They might either ignore or cut conversations short because they dont want to be found out. The more they talk the greater the chance of getting caught out because its quite hard to keep lies straight.

    My grandma taught me this:

    1. The truth always makes sense. If it doesnt make sense theres lies or deception involved somewhere.

    2. The truth never changes but lies do

    Iv found both quite true.

  • Aysh

    November 27, 2014

    Ashes it seems that maybe the family is against him marrying you and he doesnt want you to know and feel hurt.

    I had a thought that maybe his parents marriage has put him off marriage altogether but he doesnt want to lose you by saying so. Maybe he is scared to commit.

    Maybe im wrong but isnt he kinda old to have never married by Pakistani standards?

    You shouldnt have to keep pressing him. Most people I know say when its right you know very early on. Other times you can be with someone years and not be certain if you want to marry.

    Has he had other gf’s? What was the story there for breaking up? Might shed light if you knew.

  • Gail

    November 27, 2014

    Ashes,
    I figured u were taking notes and making a list of things to discuss and that is very good.I am sorry I wish I could be of more help but when dealing with this people unless he is willing to be honest.
    I am different than u but if I was u I would not let him smooshhh things over with me.I would just ignore him and walk away for awhile and let little MR really miss me.I would not attend his phone calls and I would indeed make him chase me so that he comes to understand he really loves me.
    I am going to be blunt here if u r giving him sex and I am not saying u r or r not i have no idea but if u r u really need to stop.Goes back to getting the milk for free idea.Whatever u r doing it is obviously not working we can all agree on that so u got to switch it up and as we all know actions/his actions of not getting the ball rolling on the marriage is his action.Now u need to show your actions understand?
    If u ignore him and just flat walk away from him until he gets back and let him come chase u down then I say that is the best way to handle this.If he doesn’t come a running then u also have your answer understand.
    Believe me when I say he is Pakistan and he is there to have a good time so don’t think u will be ruining his good time if u decide to take a break from the relationship.After all he is the one that decided to take a break not u so I would oblige him right back but thats just me.
    Men love woman that they can chase not the other way around so my advice is play hard to get really hard to get and now is the perfect time.

  • ashes

    November 27, 2014

    Ana,

    I still have another few years till tenure. I’m a very new teacher so won’t lose anything right now by moving to his city and getting work there. I’m not fond of my job. I think it’s mainly because I’m overwhelmed and nobody has the time to train me properly. I’m a type of teacher called resource specialist. I teach small groups of students, perform intelligence tests, create 25+ page documents for EACH student and am constantly holding meetings. I have no idea what I’m doing and feel way lost. I work with adult students 3x a week and elementary students 2x a week. It’s a big gap in age. It’s a struggle to create lessons for caseloads of students so diverse that one lesson doesn’t fit all and it’s nerve wracking that I’m always being observed since I’m new. I’m taking it one day at a time but have thought about quitting several times already. They say 50% of all new teachers quit within the first five years, I can see why! I’m holding on trying to do my best but at some point I have to take my health and sanity into consideration.

  • anabellah

    November 27, 2014

    ashes,

    Are you sure you want to give up teaching at the school in which you will soon have tenure and uproot your whole life where you live to go live nearer to Sam’s job? You said your commute is an hour. Many people I know commute an hour or more each day to and from work. I wouldn’t want to do it, but I know many people who do it. You get a lot of holidays and the summer off for vacation. Maybe you’d want to commute for a while even if you marry, just to make sure things are right between you and Sam. Do you like the job you have now? If you’re not feeling your job, and would like to start a new, then fine and good. If you really like and enjoy your job and like where you now live, you may want to take that commute for a year or so, till you’re more sure of your life with Sam. Those are just some of my thoughts. I’m not one to readily pick up and leave all that I know and am familiar with, but then too, I love where I live, and have always lived in this general area.

  • ashes

    November 27, 2014

    Gail and Ana,

    I can’t tell you how happy I am with all the advice I’m getting. I sincerely appreciate all of it.

    Gail,

    Thanks for asking your husband his point of view. I think both you and your husband are spot on. I met his mom and she’s all smiles and calls me family, she buys me gifts and wants me to visit, but I know from your own experience that means nothing, it can all be a mask.

    What all of you are helping me to do is shape the discussion I will have with Sam very soon. You’re pointing out the odd and fishy things and how culture is like there so I have insight. I have a pencil and paper and am taking notes of all the questions everyone is raising so that I won’t forget to point it out to Sam when we discuss. He’s on a sabbatical leave from work right now so won’t be back till the end of December. Now that he’s settle in at his mom’s I can call anytime. We will be talking on FaceTime tonight, but I assume now isn’t the ideal time to discuss everything. I’ll keep it light. I’ll give him a few days to settle in, let the wounds of our recent argument heal a little more prepare my words.

    Honestly, I don’t know what more I can do than continue discussions and reminding him summer is the deadline. In fact, things better start sounding more confirmed very soon since all the teaching jobs come out in summer and I need my resume and letters of recommendation lined up. I’m not going to dare ask my employer for a letter of recommendation and bring up the fact I’m looking to be hired in another district unless it’s a sure thing.

    Ana, he has verbally said it’s going to happen already. It has been discussed before, but I’m growing skeptical since no plans are being made! I would think by now or the very very near future we need to discuss where we’re getting married, who’s coming, getting my resumes together etc. If it’s not being discussed, he isn’t going to wake up one fine summer morning and say, “pack your bags, we’re getting married today”. I doesn’t work like that. I need to ask for letters of recommendation, apply for jobs in his area, find a good tenant for my house (my mom owns it, so I’d want to make sure someone good becomes the new renter). There’s a lot that has to be done. Yes, it has been discussed,but you’re right it needs to be confirmed with an exact date and the plans in the works by now. I know summer is a good 6 months away, but I feel due to all my ducks I need to get lined up, now is the time to start planning.

  • anabellah

    November 27, 2014

    ashes,

    It’s important that you get a commitment from him for marriage. Three years “dating” is not cool when it comes to Muslims. What’s known as “dating” is not the way of a Muslim/Believer. When a Muslim man is with an intended long term it’s suspect whether he has sincere intent to marry.

    It’s known that Muslim men look forward to going to the U.S, U.K or Europe to have free sex with women, as Gail mentioned, whom they view as whores. Ummof4 is correct that there are Muslim men and women who fornicate and commit adultery and think nothing of it.

    We just heard from Aysh that the Muslim guy she knows has sex with women for “release” and think nothing of it. Yet they know they want their Pakistani’s women examined to make sure they are virgins before they commit to marrying the women.

    You know the saying, “Why buy the cow when the milk is free”. My husband and I met and decided immediately, within a few days, that we would marry. It took eight months for us to marry only because I wanted to plan a formal, traditional wedding, and have a honeymoon all in May.

    I think once Muslim men begin dating, they find no urgency to wed, although they know there is no dating in Islam. These men don’t really want Islam, but they respect culture. It’s the norm for Muslims to marry quickly. You need to get an answer from him and a commitment about marriage, as soon as you and he can speak about it face to face and get things straight, Insha Allah.

  • Gail

    November 27, 2014

    Ashes,
    I talked to my husband about your fiance and your situation and told him the story and he said it can be any reason but it seems he is having a hard time to get approval for the marriage(mom or dad not agreeing) because they have someone in mind for him already or he is married.
    Listen he might have flown there to get engaged my husband said because normally 90% of Pakistani families do marriages inside the family.I know he went spur of the moment to Pakistan but with family marriages it only takes the man flying to Pakistan and one dinner and signing papers and boom engaged.
    In your case it’s just not adding up why he is waiting so long to marry again Pakistani men never wait so long unless they r stringing the woman along.U are having the opposite experience from me but I think that is because your Fiance is already a USA citizen so he is not need to hurry up and marry u as his status is already secured in USA. Also forgive me for saying this but if he don’t need Immigration then what reason is there for his family to approve of your marriage esp u being the first wife.If his mom was approved then I think she would have made him rush things a little faster since he is financially secure so she could get some grandkids out of the deal or she would just be over the moon to get u for a daughter inlaw is my thinking.
    Please listen to me on this topic just because that woman sat with u and smiled and chatted with u and might have even said she approved of your marriage and buys u clothes etc… DOES NOT mean she is telling the truth.My own mother inlaw sat with me everyday for 8 yrs laughed smiled enjoyed with me and even bought me the best clothes gave me gold u name it while all the time being very cleaver knowing her son was using me for immigration to USA and he was already married and she never missed a daily prayer u better believe your fiance’s mother has the potential to be the same way because after all not only r they from the same culture they live in the very next city from each other so culture is exact same.
    If my own mother inlaw could do that to me for 8 yrs then u have to assume logically it could also happen to u esp since he is not jumping over hoops to make u his wife and seal the deal.
    My gut feeling is Ashes his family is not agree and if he does marry u then it is highly possible u will be a second wife and if his dad is polygamous then u better believe with u being foreign they will have no problem for their son to be polygamous if they allow him to marry u.This is my sincere thinking.

  • ashes

    November 27, 2014

    Gail,

    It’s possible. Anything is. It wouldn’t be my first guess since I know Sam thinks very little of his dad after what he did to his mom, but I’m so skeptical about everything I realize perhaps it could all just be an act so that I think it isn’t a big deal not be in contact/meet with the dad. I’m “told” from Sam and Sam’s sister that the dad is relieved Sam found someone and is happy for him. I’ll be happy if I get married before the end of summer and get to talk on Skype with dad and meet the other relatives. Do i think if all this happens that mean he isn’t married or will never marry a cousin? Nahh… I’ve read this blog for too long to be that naive. I will give myself peace of mind till I find hard evidence that i should question Sam further. I could ponder about him having a secret wife all day long, but if the family wants it hidden, I sure doubt I’d ever find out.

  • ashes

    November 27, 2014

    Ana,

    It will be a very difficult break up for me. I love him more than anything. However, I’m not one to wait around forever. I grew up with the idea couples dated a few years at least before becoming married so they could know one another. Although I was ready to marry after only a year, I didn’t speak up till probably a little after the 1.5 year mark of being together. At 1.5 years, Sam assured me he had the best intentions to marry and to prove it would have me meet his mom and sister when they came to visit and tell them he has intentions to marry me. That was a year ago and he really told them. This June, we will have been dating for 3 years. Which is why summer is my cut off date.

    There’s absolutely no reason to wait for marriage any longer than 3 years. I can’t think of a single excuse. Especially since we’re adults, we have jobs, the 50 min commute between us is growing old, I need find a job close to him (I’m gaining tenure at my work only to lose it once I transfer to a school district near him). I have explicitly said I love him and it’s time for us to get married and move in together. To wait any longer than this summer is just a slap in the face to me and I’m aware no matter how much I love him it’s time to walk.

    There’s a good chance he will follow through and there’s a good chance he won’t. I bring the subject up about once a month to make sure we’re both on track (why wait till summer if he’s honest to just say nah not happening -so I bring it up at least once a month). With him not inviting me to Islamabad, I feel it’s about that time again to have the talk and check in. Sometimes the anticipation is worse than than what becomes reality. I do hope if he isn’t serious he does speak up and doesn’t drag it all the way till summer. But at least i know by summer I will have given him long enough and although will be in a state of sadness, will be happy to know the answer and move on with life with or without him.

  • Gail

    November 27, 2014

    Aysh,
    u have a great idea for her to Ashes to skype him or at least try and see if he makes an excuse or dad pops up in the picture.

    ASHESSSSSSS,
    It just hit what could be the problem.Is it possible that dear old dad has plans to marry Sam to a cousin.U said dad is fine for your marriage but I am curious have u actually talked to dad I think I remember u mentioned u have not met dad.I think this could be an angle u might not have thought about and it would sure line up with him not wanting u in Pakistan.The problem marry very well be dear old dad!

  • Aysh

    November 27, 2014

    Thankyou. I agree if thats what he has told me about, imagine what hes keeping secret. And he was so casual telling me it gave me the impression it wasnt even a big deal for him. I see he is shallow and Im really turned away from him now.

    Ashes can you Skype Sam at his mums. You might be able to see if dads around etc. Maybe dad doesnt know about you?

  • anabellah

    November 27, 2014

    ashes,

    I’m the same as you when it comes to needing to get something off my chest. I’m impulsive. When something crosses my mind that I need to act on, I have a need to act right then and there. It’s NOW. It’s a bad habit I have. Allah says men (mankind) is given to hasty deeds.

    I know it’s tough for you not to be able to get to the bottom of what is troubling you about him, as he’s a globe trotter right now. Try to find some enjoyment in the remainder of your vacation.

    I’m concerned abut you, as I know you have a lot of time and emotions invested in him and it’s hard to walk away from it all, if need be. It’s not looking good. I know of women whom men have strung along for years, and years and year. They have women waiting for them to marry them, but the men have no sincere intention for marriage or no urgency for it. I’m not saying it’s the case with you. I just know where ummof4 is coming from when she said you don’t want to be one of those women who sits waiting for a man indefinitely.

    Bottom line, though, it’s Allah’s decision how it will all turn out. We don’t want to lose sight of it.

  • anabellah

    November 27, 2014

    Aysh,

    I share the same sentiments as everyone else, forget about being in a relationship with that Loser sign loser. Don’t think he doesn’t see you as a means of release too.

  • ummof4

    November 27, 2014

    As-salaamu Alaikum and hello to all,

    Aysh, welcome to the blog. I agree with Gail, run away now while you still can! A man who says that he fornicates because he “needs release” has very low morals. He will have sex with anyone who agrees. That includes people with STDs. Do you want to put your life at risk with a man who cheats, lies and uses women as his release?

    Everyone have a successful day serving Allah as He commanded us to.

  • ashes

    November 27, 2014

    Gail,

    I’m always free to call Sam anytime he’s in Pakistan so I never got vibes he’s married and spending time with a wife. Of course anything is possible. I do get more of the vibe there’s something else why he’s hesitant to lead me over there. My first impression was ok- your immediate family knows about me, but perhaps the relatives would have a fit to hear Sam is dating and brought his girlfriend over and would look bad on the mom. But you’re very right it could be that the dad still spends some nights over there and he doesn’t want me to know that indeed they are polygamous after he made such a big deal about them not being.

    It’s past 3am my time and I can’t go to sleep or eat. I feel so drained and empty with my mind constantly wandering. I just need to have a very deep conversation with him -which is hard due to all his traveling -he’s currently on a flight to Islamabad from Paris now. I’m the type of person where if something is bothering me, I need to talk about it NOW not ignored, or hold off. For the first time ever in my life I think I’m depressed. Thank goodness I’m on vacation from work this week, however, I can’t even bring myself to touch the mountains of work I brought home.

    Aysh,

    Be thankful he offered you all this information. Although it’s nice of him to be upfront, it still sounds like you’d be setting yourself up for heartache. I also vote you cut your losses. It sounds like you just started seeing him, if you think you can walk away DO IT. It just gets harder the longer you stay and grow more and more attached. I’m sending you positive energy to be strong and make the right choice.

  • Gail

    November 27, 2014

    Aysh,
    Welcome to the group! Is not amazing how the woman are always the cheap ones.I suppose he thinks his release does not consider him cheap.I don’t know blows the mind.Don’t think to much about him telling u stuff it is a way they lure woman in thinking they r honest.Believe me if he told u that much u can only imagine how much he did not reveal to u.

  • Gail

    November 27, 2014

    Ashes,
    I really am sorry u r having to go through this.I would have no problem with Pakistani men if they would just stop LYING.I hate lying and it serves no purpose.
    I know in your case Sam is already USA citizen I believe u said so he would not be using u for a immigration which is good but still in the long run really doesn’t mean anything since so many men go back and marry in Pakistan after marrying in a foreign country.Between you and me I would never in a million years marry a man that has a problem inviting me to his home in his country that would never fly with me but everyone is different and u will have to figure out what u r going to deal with and what u are not willing to deal with in your relationship.
    If the parents are talking on the phone then yeah u betcha they r still married 100% and Sam is just sugar coating the issue.Those people never chat with an exspouse unless they r trying to work things out otherwise I have never seen it happen being casually friendly no way!
    It is such a HUGE stigma in Pakistan for a woman to be divorced.It could be possible Sam don’t want u in Pakistan because he has lied about his parents.Wouldn’t it be strange if u go to Pakistan and u wake up only to be greeted but Sams parents together after he has told u they r divorced.

  • Aysh

    November 27, 2014

    Hi Ashes,

    It does seem like there is something off. Even if he is not engaged/married to a cousin there’s something being hidden. Perhaps he’s embarrassed dad’s polygamy will be revealed or other family secrets. I would feel unsettled too planning a life with someone who seems to be keeping secrets no matter how much he loved me.

    I started seeing a Pakistani man, we have started dating but nothing sexual. He actually told me he was married to a girl in my country but she found out he married another girl (not a cousin, someone in a different country altogether) and divorced him. He did that marriage for money/visa reasons.

    He also told me he fathered a child as a teenager in Pakistan that he has never known. He told me about the cousin he was meant to marry, showed me facebook photos, but said he refused to marry her because he felt her parents were disrespecting his parents over money and treating them like slaves.

    What I dont understand is why he’s volunteered this? I might have found about the wife stuff but not the child. He said I’m easy to talk to and he feels comfortable with me. He said I’ve got a good heart.

    I just feel Im better off cutting my losses. I had my suspicions he had a few female “friends with benefits” and I dont think that would change. I heard a rumor a couple of girls at work have sex with him sometimes and did during his last marriage.

    I told him the rumor I heard and he said they are cheap girls but he’s not married and needs release! As I write, my feelings have become quite clear! Thanks for listening.

  • ashes

    November 26, 2014

    Gail,

    I 100% agree with all you said, you are truly the expert and I know this.

    We barely got over a big argument, the wounds are still fresh and I know in order to have a genuine conversation where he’ll open up I need to wait a few days. Besides, he’s headed to Islamabad tomorrow, running around, will have to meet family so it’s better to not bring up this big conversation for a few days since he won’t really have the time to have a true discussion.

    I actually do get the vibe Sam’s dad is polygamous from things I’ve picked up on over the years. I straight asked Sam if that was the case, saying “before you answer this, just know I’m familiar with it (from this blog) and won’t think badly”. Sam said something along the lines of, “They’re not polygamous because my mom left him”. I’m nice so didn’t press any further -which is a habit I need to get over. The biggest reason why I think the dad is polygamous is because the mom and dad still talk on the phone… when I first met Sam’s mom, Sam mentioned that she called his dad and told him all about me. It seems odd they still talk when their three kids are all past 30 years of age. Second, just as you mentioned Gail, Sam said the mom is from Iran/grew up there. If that’s the case, then why didn’t she just move back to be near family after the divorce? Sam LOVES his mom and has plenty of money to buy her a nice house and support her wherever she wants to be.

    I could care less if the dad is polygamous as I know it’s quite common. The big deal is I just wish Sam wouldn’t be so private with information. To tell you the truth, it seems getting to go to Pakistan will mean very little. Like you said, just because I go doesn’t mean anything. When you went, nobody clued you in your husband was still married at the time. The mom and sis are VERY kind to me but I have no doubt they’d cover for their golden boy.

  • ashes

    November 26, 2014

    ummof4,

    Thank you for sharing your story of how you spoke up and told your now husband it’s now or never. Just today I was thinking how unromantic it is that I have to be the one to put my foot down and keep checking in every few months to make sure we’re on the right track and he’s not wasting my time. The large majority of his actions really speak volumes about how much he cares about me, and I do honestly think he has intentions to marry me soon. It’s just that when we do, it’s not going to feel like my special day, it’s just going to feel like it’s happening because I was the one pushing for it. All these Disney movies growing up have programmed my mind to think a certain way I suppose. :)

  • Gail

    November 26, 2014

    Ashes,
    The more I think about your situation the more your fiance is acting like a typical Pakistani male.Look the reality is Islamabad is truly the safest place in all Pakistan.He don’t want u in Pakistan and went through alot of trouble for u not to go to Pakistan.Bottom line he is covering something up he don’t want u to know about plane and simple.
    Ashes r u willing to be married to a man that refuses to take u home and that is the truth in it after all.What is at home that he don’t want u or others to see?
    Also it is 99.9% chance that his dad is not divorced from his mother and living Polygamy lifestyle.It is very simple if his father was truly divorced from his mother then his mother would be living with her family in their home understand.Now DO NOT offer up this info that u understand this to your fiance or he will tell u yeah that the home is his mothers family homes or some nonsense again u would not be able to prove or disprove understand.
    Woman get nothing in Pakistan when divorce happens and the husbands are NOT NICE soooo it leads me to think this is his fathers home not to mention his brother is living with his mother in the family home.
    Also if it was his mother family home then she would have some of her fathers relatives living in the same home since people live joint family system there.
    Nothing about what he has told u is adding up with what I know about Pakistani culture to be honest.
    Also one last thing that shows very clearly he don’t want u in Pakistan and is going through great lengths to keep u away is he said u name anywhere other than Pakistan meaning u r free to go to Afgan,Iran,Africa where ever that killer virus is at etc… lol see my point? Logically speaking he don’t want u in Pakistan and if he don’t want u there then WHY? You are not the Queen of England that u are so special that u need armed guards to go to Pakistan.So yeah something is not right and I smell a Rat and I think the family is all in on it.My sincere guess is he has another wife or will take a cousin wife and it would make more logical sense that he is married or engaged and that is the real reason he will not have u in Pakistan and his family will for sure 1000000000000% lie straight to your face on his behalf.Never think those people r like us and will be honest and forthcoming it will never in a million years happen.They protect their own and u r not their own.Yes they will be nice to u they will do every single thing to u but tell u the D@mn truth.
    Now in saying that I honestly feel u must must must accept the possibility that u may very well end up living a polygamous lifestyle because he is Muslim and he can marry up to 4 woman and even though he may swear on his life he will not do it u better not believe him unless u willing to put the gun to your head an play the game Russian Rullette is most sincere advice.Either accept today the possibility of Polygamy or walk away those r your 2 real choices.

  • ummof4

    November 26, 2014

    As-salaamu Alaikum and hello to all,

    Ashes, feel free to say anything that I have written. You seem like a nice young lady who does not deserve to spend years of her life waiting to marry a man who keeps putting off marriage. It may be time for you to put your foot down. If he is single and a US citizen(I think you said he had US citizenship), then there should be no delay.

    My husband and I were not Muslim when we got married. We met and dated for five months. We seemed extremely compatible and had strong feelings for each other. However, I was not one to wait for any man for the rest of my life. So I asked him to marry me and if he said no, I was moving on with my life. He said yes and we were married the next week. No big wedding, just a ceremony with the justice of the peace and the wife of the justice. We have been married 40 years. So, why don’t you just ask him to marry you by a certain date that is very soon. You can get married and have a big reception later if that’s what you two want.

    I am glad that you realize that the excuse of you being close to his family before marriage doesn’t make logical sense. He wants you to be close to them, but he doesn’t want you to visit them. Maybe you can skype his mother and sister for a month, then tell him that you all know each other well. Then see what his excuse will be. Skype is just like being there with the person. Maybe the two of you can skype his mother and sister together and see what they say about the two of you getting married very soon.

    Anyone can ask Allah for guidance, so we all should do it regularly.

  • anabellah

    November 26, 2014

    Butterflykhan,

    I’m happy you’re here and I’m glad you’ve met Gail. Don’t feel badly about what happened to you. You weren’t the first person to be bamboozled by those charming critters, and won’t be the last. It’s good for others to hear about what you’ve experienced with one. Perhaps others will read the stories here, and know what to be aware of when they meet an engaging Pakistani man. It helps others out there who have fallen victim of the snares of such men to know they aren’t alone. There is a place – here – where they can come and talk about it, if they feel a need to, Insha Allah. I hope all is going much better for you in your life now :-)

  • ashes

    November 26, 2014

    ummof4,

    We have talked in the past and he knows marriage is absolutely mandatory for me in the very near future and assures me it will happen. Marriage absolutely has to happen for multiple reasons. Number one, it’s the right thing to do. Second, we live 50 minutes away from one another and although it’s an easy commute, enough is enough. We are both very busy and although we always make time for one another, it’s very hard due to our workload. Most times we get together we’re sitting next to each other and doing work we bring home. Why not just get married and do it in the same house. He said in the past he wants me to be very comfortable with his family before we marry – how will that happen if I’m not allowed to visit?

    Furthermore, I’m a fairly new teacher and I have made it well aware I will be gaining tenure and a higher salary in MY school district that will be lost once we marry and I have to find work near him -thankfully the type of teaching credential I have is very much in demand and I could be hired in any city, but still the loss of tenure and salary is a big thing – so it is well well known and even expected that this summer is the limit. If it were up to me, I’d marry next week and not make it into a big deal. Your words are absolutely true… we have known each other for long enough that we absolutely should be married already. I hope you don’t mind, but I would love to say to him what you said for me, word for word.

  • ashes

    November 26, 2014

    Sam called me last night to patch things up. We’re calm and collected. However, I stand firm that he make plans for me to visit Islamabad and he stands firm that it’s too dangerous. Why do I want to marry someone I never get to go on his yearly month-long trips home with? This is something I will not budge with and we’re going to be having some very serious conversations about.

  • ashes

    November 26, 2014

    Gail,

    Thank you for the big reply. How interesting you have to go and pick out things at the market then send someone else to buy it. I would love to one day go on the chair lifts through the mountains and visit the spice markets. Your positive energy towards Pakistan makes me feel like I’d be safe. Sam had me way scared.

    The more I talk and listen to you all, the more I realize if I went over there it likely wouldn’t prove much -there’s always a possibility that there’s a side of him I don’t know and the family would cover it up. There really is NO way to know like you said – there may be secrets I don’t find out ever or until several years of being married to him. I have never once snooped through his phone or computer messages, but I have to admit there are days where I have thought about it just to crush the tiny little thoughts that pop up every once in a while about what if he did happen to have a secret wife.

    I don’t know if the new wife is foreign/American… I know NOTHING about her besides the fact she’s married to Sam’s dad and they have a son together. I would assume she’s Pakistani, I know they live in Rawalpindi. I don’t have any way to communicate with her. I’m usually the type that doesn’t like to pry into touchy family matters and ask a lot of questions that make people uncomfortable. As I’m reading over what I typed here I realize just how silly it makes me sound that I’m going to marry Sam and don’t know something as simple as the new wife’s name or anything about her because I don’t want to talk about an uncomfortable subject with him.

    Ana, I felt a bit in the dumps that he would do some traveling prior to Islamabad without me. He purchased the ticket two days before flying out and he thought why not go with the flight with long layovers so he can explore.He states it’s not even a big deal since he doesn’t even have time to explore. I said, “First the Dubai trip is not happening which I understand. but now I can’t go to Islamabad because it’s unsafe. and presently you’re in Europe enjoying and that’s someplace I COULD have gone if you gave me a little heads up?” My blood boiled and I know I ruined his entire trip and he has been up all night (his time) fighting with me on the phone and I’m constantly reminding him how selfish he was and how hurt I am. This is wayyy out of the ordinary for me to be arguing and putting him down. I know he feels way bad and is eager to make it up to me, saying just tell him were I want to go (besides islamabad of course) and he’ll book the flight right now.

  • ummof4

    November 26, 2014

    As-salaamu Alaikum and hello to all,

    Ashes, it’s good to hear from you again. All I have to say is if your fiance is single, there is nothing keeping him from marrying you except one of 2 reasons:
    1. He is already married and is trying to figure out how to juggle 2 wives who don’t know about each other.
    2. He doesn’t want to marry you and wants to keep you dangling on a string while you and he remain romantic and as intimate as you want to be.

    Believe me, Muslim men who are single and are trying to please Allah and TRULY want to get married don’t wait a long time, they JUST DO IT! THEY DON’T HAVE GIRLFRIENDS OR FIANCEES EXCEPT FOR A VERY SHORT TIME!Some Muslim men just enjoy having girlfriends that they can have fun with and not have to worry about. Some Muslim men enjoy having romantic/sensual/sexual(manual, oral and vaginal) relationships without having to worry about a wife and children. Some Muslim men see nothing wrong with fornication and/or adultery.

    Only you can decide if you want to keep waiting for this man to marry you.

    May Allah help us all.

  • anabellah

    November 26, 2014

    Gail,

    I forgot ashes intended’s father has a foreign wife. I agree with you that it would be good, if ashes could speak to her. Hopefully she would be forthright and truthful.

    Yes, a number of times you spoke to us about how your husband put you on ignore. It’s exactly what ashes’ intended has done to her, during a time she is distressed about their relationship.

    A red flag went up when she stated he is traveling in Pari (Paris) without her. It sounds suspect that he would go such a romantic place without the love of his life, when they intend to wed. She need to realize men are permitted 4 wives, which doesn’t limit them to 2. I don’t want to be hurtful to ashes, but she needs to not overlook what appears to be signs.

    I’ll chat with you all soon. My bed is calling me LOL.

  • Gail

    November 26, 2014

    Ashes,
    I went back and finished reading more post and seen where he is using warnings as a way to not let u go there.I am going to be very honest with u and I hope u don’t mind but I have a sick feeling he is married or engaged to a cousin.I don’t believe for a second that them sending u to UAE on the pretense it is safer is the real reason.We already know from past experience he was not forthcoming about his own father and family situation and if he is up and flying without u the woman he is suppose to be in love with and u yourself are feeling there is some kind of disconnect in his personality which u r feeling u got to wonder if their is more than meets the eye with him.I wish I could tell u that u will go to Pakistan and magically figure out everything about him but if him and his family r hiding secrets and they don’t want u to know then u will not find out it is just that simple.Pleaseeee Pleaseeee Don’t think u r going to be the lucky one and end up sitting with us 2 or 3 years down the road telling your own screwed up story.
    Another huge clue is how he is ignoring u and going silent on u.My husband is notorious for doing this to me.I can not tell u how many times on the blog I have complained to Ana about my husband putting me on his ignore list for days at a time.It is a clue girl don’t over look it.
    I will say this again think a million times before u jump off this cliff with this man and marry him and have kids and get stuck in your life.At the very least u go to Pakistan and u see with your own eyes his family and talk with his fathers foreign wife.If he don’t let u near her then thats another clue he don’t want her talking to u and u two comparing notes understand.

  • Gail

    November 26, 2014

    Butterflykhan,
    Don’t feel stupid ok HUGSSS!! I actually went to Pakistan and married my husband and lived in the same house with his entire family and never knew he was secretly keeping his first wife on the side and just thought in his mind he did a paper divorce with her and married me for immigration and his entire family was in on the lie.NOW U WANT TO TALK ABOUT STUPID!!!!!! If a prize could be won I would win it hands down So if u wanna talk about stupid and being deceived yeah that would for sure be me unfortunately.
    Believe me those people are liars like u would not believe and they want their sons out of Pakistan in hopes of making more money for the family they do not care who they walk on or destroy to get what they want.
    Also like in Ashes situation ok her fiance is in USA and USA citizen but that means nothing also because those people tend to marry in the family.There is no logical reason why any man that is already outside of Pakistan and married should ever go back to marry a COUSIN come on now that is just not normal logic UNLESSSSSS the husband and the family do not care about the foreign wife.It is very obvious they don’t care about anyone or anything other than there blood family.That much I have figured out.I will tell u how I truly feel about foreign wives of Pakistani men.I think we r considered as kinda whores.They use foreign woman for their sexual needs and the family and Pakistani wife will let it go on thinking in their minds well he is far from home and needs sex so why not take a foreign wife/legal whore myself included.
    I hate to say this but these r my deepest thoughts because nothing else makes any logical since as to why the men would go back and marry a cousin/blood relation to me.Also the family does not treat the foreign wife as a real member of the family they always treat her really nice and shower her with gifts and act really extra ordinary nice but treat everyone else like $hit.Thats another clue being treated so nice.Those SOBs never act nice unless they have something to gain from it in my experience.

  • Gail

    November 26, 2014

    Ana,
    Spirited is 100% right.It really is like putting a loaded gun up to your head with a bullet in it and turning it and then pulling the trigger hoping u will be lucky.In the case of Pakistani men it is like loading all the chambers with bullets except one and then turning it and putting the gun up to your head.Lets face it the odds r very much against u.
    Even I will tell u how twisted all this is.When Ashes was talking about how her fiances 32 yr old brother was still living at home with his wife and kids I was thinking to myself Ashes how do u know those r 32 year old brother wife and kids and not your fiances wife and kids? I am dead serious u can never be for certain with those people unless u seen the Imam yourself marry them it is just that bad unfortunately.
    I will tell u this if I divorced my husband never again in this lifetime would I ever marry another Pakistani man.It is just insanity to me at the the highest level knowing what I know now.No thank u.
    I don’t want to discourage Ashes or anyone else from following their heart but dang make sure u can deal with lies and deceit if it comes your way after marrying a Pakistani man.It is heartbreaking and just pure trauma and torture when u wake up and find out your amazing husband is a snake.You wanna talk about being B!tched Slapped now that is being B!tched slapped.I know I pictured myself as a bobble head for a good long while.lol

  • Gail

    November 26, 2014

    Ashes,
    I went back and read your post to Mari2 and girl I have to honestly say I think u have alot of things assbackwards not meaning that in a bad way.Like u mentioned his brother living at home at age 32 like it is not a normal thing.I can assure u it is a very very normal thing and u r the only one who would think it was not normal.
    In Pakistani culture this is kinda the motto One person works and 30 eats.Meaning one or two people work and support the rest of the family.In USA we consider that to be laziness when one works and supports the a 32 year old brother and his family but in Pakistan it is not a big deal at all and is even expected.
    As far as servants tipping anyone off I wouldn’t worry about it since u r in ISB and it is soooo safe there in the Capital.Also go with your fiance out and about if u like but don’t be surprised if him or his mom don’t want u to go and make up excuses simply because taking u shopping with them means paying more money.The merchants see a foreign person and they jack up the prices and thats a pain in the Rump for Pakistani people.Now in saying that make it clear to your fiance it is just a short time and u want to enjoy and have fun for the most part so please take u with them.Normally what I do is walk and show my mother inlaw or husband what I want then I leave and sit in the car or they go back without me another day and purchase what I want at the normal price.
    If u do decide to go please go to Murree it is so beautiful and they have chair lifts that take u though the mountains it is so amazing and once in a lifetime adventure and it is very close to ISB.I went there first time on my honeymoon.It is so sweet and I think u will really enjoy it.
    One last thing normally I went out at night because we r night people but also at night it is dark and it is alot harder to spot foreign people in the dark but again I do not think u would have any problems.
    Last thing I never register with the Embassy now that is just me.Mainly registering is for alerts more than anything.I am not saying not to register if u r worried but I never felt the need to do it.
    Also to be honest it is completely normal for people to here there is an American visiting and they come and ask because they want to be introduced more than anything.They r very social people and like to hang out and chat understand so don;t be scared of that.In Mari2 case I am fairly certain her family denied she was there for protection because she was in a very high risk area is my thinking.

  • anabellah

    November 26, 2014

    All I’m reading about Pakistan and some of the people is beginning to creep me out. I’m with Spirited; I’d advise a woman to flee from a Pakistani man. She should run like her shoes are on fire. Lol You know whose saying that was. It is too much friggin work trying to differentiate between truth and lies. I say to hell with it all.I ain’t got time for it. Ya know what I’m saying???

  • Gail

    November 26, 2014

    Everyone,
    Peshawar is the the most dangerous place in all Pakistan it is close to the Afgan border.I also think Karachi is pretty Dangerous but again Peshawar hands down is the most dangerous.That is where the Taliban are located in that area as far as I am aware. My husband home is in Rawalpindi and in the highly populated area and I have never had any problems to be honest.My sister inlaws live in Islamabad and Lahore and I travel every other day to Islamabad and monthly to Lahore and I also travel to my excowife village in Jhelum area and have never had any fear and just LOVED IT totally.
    Ashes without saying DON”T go to Peshawar for Obvious reasons like Mari2 has stated because it is just not safe there to be honest and I don’t like Karachi but thats just me personally.Everywhere else is nice and never had a problem.

    Mari2,
    U go girl how was Peshawar I have always wanted to go because i here they have great markets there for buying things.I really do have a desire to go there.I hope someday I will be able to go that side.

  • Gail

    November 26, 2014

    Ashes,
    Hi Ashes I totally remember u.Islamabad is the safest place in all Pakistan to be frank.It is well guarded and I do not believe for one second u would have any problems going there for a visit or even living there if u wanted to.
    Now this is me and my type of personality I am not easily scared of anything and choose not to live my life that way to be honest and if u want even the real truth I am more scared of the plane flight to Pakistan(getting sick from breathing plane air)than hanging out in Pakistan.
    Now girl I am not going to sugar coat it here.Again I will ask u r u for certain he went to Islamabad to visit his mother or is it remotely possible he has a wife and kids there he ran to visit(for your sake I hope I am wrong)but I kinda smell something funny in the air.I was as sure of my husband as u r of your fiance but as u well know I got horribly burned.Here is my advice if u r going to marry him go to Pakistan and meet his family this is important for u.Ask subtle questions about how many of his cousins and family r married to other family members.This maybe your one and only chance to go and really see his life and how he lives.I think he may very well be nervous.If it were me I would 100% go.U don’t have kids and u r not married I say u tell him straight u r coming and u r looking forward to the visit.If he tries to stop u then u that is for sure a red flag.
    I can not emphasize enough go ask the right questions.
    Also I will tell u this I was married to my husband and everyone kept the lie from me that my husband and his family were keeping his 1st wife and just done a paper divorce.These people r hard as heck to peace together the puzzle.U know what I mean how he didn’t tell u upfront about his dad being divorced/polygamous.
    Listen to me if his dad has an American wife she will tell u the truth more than likely about his family situation and u need to befriend that woman above anyone else and take her over to the side and ask her straight and in confidence if everything is as your fiance has told u about him and his family because u have heard horror stories.Be straight with her and she will be straight with u.I hope my advice helps u.It is fine to trust your fiance but it is also equally fine to protect your own A$$ to if u know what I mean.If u go u must eat at Khabul but make certain u have them open your drink in front of u.Anywhere u go get a bottle and make them open in front of u never drink from an open bottle understand.

  • ashes

    November 26, 2014

    Mari2,

    As Ana mentioned, I would really love to hear if you think I should pursue going or not?

  • ashes

    November 26, 2014

    Mari2,

    Yikes… people actually came asking to see if you, the American, was staying there? How terrifying. As far as I know, the mom lives by herself with some cats and a few servants. I strongly suspect Sam’s younger brother lives with her, but it’s never mentioned (I suppose to save face that the younger brother is still living at home with mom and not employed and with family of his own-he’s around 32). I know his relatives would be over visiting since Sam’s there and I have NO IDEA at all about their character or if the relatives would even accept me or throw a fit and gossip -I know it’s a huge deal just to be accepted by the mom and sister and dad (although dad is just by word; i have never met him personally). Sam did mention that you can never trust anyone and sometimes he worries about the servants even taking advantage of his mom and says there has been cases of servants going to taliban and gossiping where an American is staying in exchange for money.

    I truly appreciate you warning me about registering with the state department and will listen to your advice as to not alert corrupt police. All this does make me feel a little better that Sam has genuine concern. Still, it doesn’t sit well that I’ll likely never get to tag along.

  • anabellah

    November 26, 2014

    Oops, the movie was “Argo”, not “Zero Dark Thirty”. Both were really good movies, though. I got some good laughs watching “Argo.”

  • anabellah

    November 26, 2014

    Mari2,

    You said the servants may tip off the authorities and ashes’ intended said someone may tell the Taliban. It reminds me of what happened in the movie, “Zero Dark Thirty”. Although slow moving, the movie was very good.

    Do you see yourself going back to Pakistan to visit? Would you advise Ashes to Pursue going there Or Would You discourage her? Does her bow sound on the up and up?

  • anabellah

    November 26, 2014

    Coco did say “Peshawar” was an exception.

  • Mari2

    November 26, 2014

    @Ashes,
    My husband is a US citizen but he lets few know that. Also, when he alone travels to and from Pakistan, he only lets his mother know when and where he is arriving and when and where he will depart the country. He himself keeps his travel plans on the down low.

  • Mari2

    November 26, 2014

    Ashes,
    As far as traveling to Islamabad, if you are insistent upon going then be sure to register your travel plans with the State Department prior to leaving. You will need to provide the St Dept with your itinerary, address/persons which you will be residing in Islamabad, and passport number. This is for your protection so that the US Embassy in Islamabad is aware of when and where and with whom you will be staying. DO NOT under any circumstances register your visit with the local police department even though that is a requirement for visitors there. The police are corrupt. The less they know about you, the better. Also, do not venture into shopping areas without a driver and trusted men and women to accompany you. How secure is Sam’s mother’s home? How many servants does she have? How many loose lips?

    When I was in Pakistan last year (in KPK, near Peshawar), there were incidents when uninvited people would show up at the home of my husband’s mom, or send their servants to enquire if an American was living there. His family denied my existence for good reason. I actually never got to see much since I had to remain a secret visitor for my safety. But I was okay safety-wise because my husband’s uncle is a police officer in the town, and everyone in the home apparently had a gun of some kind or another. I absolutely understand Sam’s qualms regarding your safety.

  • butterflykhan

    November 25, 2014

    i myself have fell victim of this very same thing, i meet my pakistani husband in canada, it was love at first sight things were great a year and a half we here married, i found a letter that he was going to be sent back to pakistan i consulted a lawyer, and sponsored him after four years of this process he got his residence card then that is when the trouble came. he lied to me said he was going to a different province for work and will contact me. i would call his phone and no answer days turn to weeks and weeks turn to months, then after three months i got a call from him. he said he had returned from pakistan that his mother was ill. he told me to pack up come move to the province he was working things are good now and he would explain when i got there. i was in the new province for about 6 months when i found out the real reason he was in pakistan, he had married his cousin he told me he could disobey his parents that it would kill them. that in islam he is allowed more then one wife. this hurt me so much all of the lies i was crushed. he said he loves me that he had to do this. now that i look back at the past 7 years i was with him. i was blind at first i heard the stories but thought i have a good one, but this happens so offen more so then women in canada, uk and usa think. i do advise to make sure you meet his parents and his family. if he dont want to take to you to pakistan then there is a problem, if he wont let you talk to his family there is a problem, my ex husband would tell me they dont speak english, turns out 80% of the population speaks english boy did i feel dumb. until i opened my eyes, ladys becareful

  • ashes

    November 25, 2014

    Coco,

    what a good memory you have to remember me since I rarely post. I already met his mom and sister.

    I guess there isn’t much to debate anymore. Earlier today we spoke on the phone and had a really bad argument. It started off with me telling him I want to go to Islamabad end of discussion. He flat said NO way it’s way too dangerous and started sending me all the advisory warnings about American’s traveling to Pakistan. I protested it doesn’t matter as I don’t foresee Pakistan getting better and since we plan to be married I’m not going to be comfortable never getting to go visit his yearly destination so he better get used to the idea of me coming.

    Right now he’s overseas exploring Europe (he took a flight with long layovers so that he could explore a bit before getting to Islamabad) and somehow the conversation trickled to me complaining how we never get to go on any fun vacations together and how inconsiderate he was not to invite me. That I currently feel I’m not included in his life and wished him fun in the love capital of the world (Paris) without me and said, “have fun bachelor”. He got really upset as this has been an argument for a few days and said don’t try to contact him as he’s not going to connect to wifi…. and that’s the last I heard of him. He usually needs a few days to cool down, but I’m going to stand firm in what I believe is right. If he’s serious about me, he better get used to the idea of me casually tagging along to Islamabad.

  • coco

    November 25, 2014

    Hey! I remember you from before if I’m not wrong I reckon your fiancé’s father was possibly polygamous or something was off with him. There’s so much I would love to say to you but I have an early start tomorrow, so I will just have to settle with a quick post to you I will try to elaborate later. Anyways about you visiting Pakistan to meet his mum and sister I think it’s mandatory you do as you will be marrying into the family and before you may have to suffer any repercussions of your decision it’s prudent to get all doubts you may have in your heart out of the way. We tend to have blind faith and trust in the men we love so our judgement can be biased at times I think after you meet his mum and sis you will feel the weight of uncertainty in your heart disappear inshAllah :) As far as the safety situation in Pakistan I’m an American-Pakistani and I’ve been in and out of Pakistan for a few years now I also have foreign white friends all over the country they seem to be fine and safe till date thankfully. Not a “Not without my daughter” scenario lol unless you were going to Peshawar but even then there would be a 1 in 100 chance to get stuck in such a situation but you’ll be visiting the safest city in Pakistan, the situation and people are very civil in Islamabad so I’m hoping you do end up going. Ashes you will get many strong opinions from here and it’s a good thing we need them, they help us weigh the pros and cons, to see the blind spots we miss out on, but after absorbing all you gotta really listen to your inner voice and judgement, I think you know in your heart whether you should proceed with the trip or not so just listen to your instincts the answer is ALWAYS there :) Best of luck to you! xo

  • anabellah

    November 25, 2014

    ashes,

    I’m with you on all you are saying. I’m waiting to hear other responses to you such as what Mari2, Gail and Spirited has to say. Gail and Mari2 are American who have been there recently and I don’t think things are any different today than when they were there. Spirited, of course, is American Pakistani, but she recently went to Pakistan. She and I had spoken about travel of Americans to Pakistan and she thought it safe, if I understood her correctly.

    I get an uneasy feeling about him not wanting you to come there when he knows you feel strongly about it. It’s not as though you would be out of his sight. He’ll be at the airport to greet you and you to should be together like hand and glove till you leave. There are some here who haven’t been to the countries their husbands are from. One who comes to mind is Fatima. She hasn’t been to India and she eventually learned the husband had gone there, married and had a child.

    You said Sam’s mother is Iranian, but lived her married life in Pakistan, and hasn’t left Pakistan even after the divorce. I’m sure she’s acclimated to the customs and culture of Pakistan. Why all a sudden it’s not a good idea for you to go there now, but just yesterday it was okay?- besides that it became way more dangerous over the last week or so, (sarcasm from me).

    Lets be patience, and see what others have to say. I can be a pessimist at times.

  • ashes

    November 25, 2014

    Ana,

    Sam claims the only people important in his life are his mom and sister. He isn’t really close to his relatives. I think he’s unsure about his relationship with his dad; I can see there’s still resentment from dad leaving mom and he rarely talks to his dad yet still claims his dad is important to him. When I say that’s why I want to meet the dad in person, that’s when he says I will someday but the only two people that really matter are his mom and sis.

    I genuinely believe the sister and mom like me and wanted me to come to Dubai. They were the ones to initiate serious talk about it, pressure me to get my passport. I was the one to say lets re-schedule once I saw how busy the sister became between hosting in-laws, finding a new place to live and planning for her baby’s 1st birthday.

    I agree with you, Ana. I’m aware Pakistan isn’t safe today, tomorrow and likely won’t be in my lifetime. Sam has flat told me until things get better, he’ll just always arrange for me to visit sister and mom in Dubai. Sam has been a very good man to me, but still I try to take a step back and look for red flags. It’s hard. On one hand I’ve been following this blog for a few years and am very familiar with how some Pakistani men roll with foreign women and keep lives separate. In that sense, it’s almost like a test to see if he’ll let me go and that noting fishy is happening -I feel awful for saying that since our relationship is so wonderful, but after all the stories I hear on this blog… On the other hand, from what I read and hear about Pakistan, he isn’t telling a lie about it being risky for me to be there.

    Since we do plan to get married and he has told me before I will need to bring any future children to visit his mom, why not go now? He goes yearly. I’m a teacher with vacation in the summer and scattered holidays throughout the year. If we get married, I want to visit with him on his trips. I want to be a part of his life and travel with him. It’s incredibly helpful to post here and get advice from people who have insight before I make the decision to insist to Sam that I go.

  • anabellah

    November 25, 2014

    @ashes,

    I thought about your situation some more. You mentioned you and Sam will marry and be family,so you’d like to visit his home. I totally understand where you’re coming from and he should, as well. The thing is he’s telling you Pakistan is not safe for an American woman today. I don’t question that it isn’t. Will it be safe tomorrow? Will it be safe next year or 2,3,4 or 5 years from now? I don’t foresee a whole lot of change for the better occurring in Pakistan anytime in the foreseeable future. He’s set you up for not going there anytime soon.

    You could explain to him that it’s an ideal time for you to go there and you feel safe traveling there,despite the warnings. Let him know you want to meet his family whom will soon be your family as well and you would like to go there in December (2014). If he insist you not go,despite the pitch you give him, then??? If he says fine and good, pack your bags and let’s do this thing, then it’s looking a bit better for you.

  • anabellah

    November 25, 2014

    @ashes,

    I’m very interested in what Gail would have to say about your dilemma. Based on what you have stated, it seems you already made up your mind that he and his family are trustworthy people. You said you’ve met his mom and his sister who both embraced you.

    You know what many of us have discussed here about how some Pakistani men roll (meaning how they maneuver within relationships with foreign women.) You seem to have determined it’s not like that with you and him. Once people have been warned and they don’t heed warning, nothing is left to do, but to live it and learn it. Sometimes one has to live the life mapped out for them.

    He’s telling you it’s not safe for you to travel to Pakistan. He’s now telling you he thinks it best you not come there. You could insist that you go, but do you really want to go someplace knowing you may not be wanted there?

    I know you said it would be the ideal time for you and him to be there based on your work schedule. You may just want to wait and see how things go in the summer with plans to visit Dubai.

    A red flag goes up for me that they already cancelled the Dubai trip, and are now cancelling the Pakistani trip for you? Something smells fishy to me. You love him and only want to see the good in him, so I see that you will give him the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes you just have to go with it. Roll the dice, so to speak.

  • ashes

    November 24, 2014

    Gail,

    I was wondering if i could get your opinion on how to handle an issue in my relationship with my Pakistani boyfriend whom I’ll call “Sam”. I’ve talked to you before. To refresh your memory: Sam’s mom is Iranian and dad is Pakistani (they are now divorced) and mom for some reason still lives in Islamabad in a house with some maids and his dad lives in Rawalpindi and is re-married. I’m an American white woman. Sam is already a U.S. citizen, successful career (basically has nothing to gain from me). We are intending to get married in the future and I’ve met the two most important people in his life- his mom and sister- last year and get along with them very well. I’m not a secret. Polygamy/cousin-marriage has never presented itself and generally this has been a very happy relationship.

    Here’s the issue I face: I have been planning to spend my Christmas break from work in Dubai with “Sam”, his sister and his mom (his sister lives in Dubai so we would all fly there). Dubai is safe and that’s why they invited me there to begin with. This wasn’t just talk as Sam even went out and bought me a passport. However, now that the time has grown near, an issue came up. His sister’s in-laws are visiting and she’s hosting them in addition to house hunting and moving since her lease is up. I could tell the Dubai visit would be a strain so I said lets try again this summer.

    Sam will now just go straight to Islamabad now and stay with his mom. I’m told the mom really wants me to visit and stay at her house in Islamabad. Sam seemed supportive saying how much I’d like Islamabad vs Dubai and how it’s his real home and how there’s good foods, spice markets, his mom will cook amazing foods for us and basically selling the place to me. I got excited and seriously took him up on the offer today and said ok I’m looking forward to this. Now that we are seriously talking about it, he’s saying he would be very worried about me traveling to Islamabad and started saying how sometimes people (even maids) tip off Taliban of foreign American women and how they get kidnapped for ransom etc. That I will stand out to others and he would rather just plan for Dubai this summer. He says things would likely be fine as many Americans do visit and come home unharmed, but it is a common enough scenario that he wouldn’t feel comfortable with me going at this point in time. I do suspect if I insisted, he would reluctantly let me make the final decision to go.

    I don’t know if I should press to go to Islamabad, Gail? I’m weighing my options. I do realize Pakistan isn’t a safe place and there’s security warnings for U.S. Americans to avoid Pakistan unless absolutely necessary. However, since I plan to marry Sam, I want to visit his true home unless I’d truly be putting my life in danger. Sam’s there on sabbatical leave from work right now and I’ll soon be on a 2 week vacation Dec 19. It would be an ideal time, I mean I’m not sure Pakistan will ever truly be a safe place in my lifetime. I really value your insight. If anyone else has advice I’d be happy to hear from you as well.

  • anabellah

    November 24, 2014

    @Spirited, Wa Alaikum As Salaam,

    Thank you much, sis, for giving us the 411 on the problem from an American born and raised Pakistani lady’s perspective.

    Right on! More power to the people. Toothless Chuckle

    Everyone, please forgive me; I’m just in one of those crazy, silly moods again, today http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_wacko.gif

    Spirited, I say, Insha Allah, you all (your family) get together for your dinner, and leave the trouble causing Aunt out. It’s senseless to allow her to jack up everyone’s fun time. Well, if anything, you prepare something special for your family and have fun, Insha Allah. Don’t let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch…is what I say.

  • Gail

    November 24, 2014

    Ana and Spirited,
    I agree with u both on the topics.
    I do agree that this seems to be more of a problem for poor village girls than richer ones.The poor village girls would not have internet access so it is impossible to reach the ones that need the information the most unfortunately.
    I also believe that alot of them would stay silent like Ana says out of fear of being beaten or divorced.
    I remember when my excowife finally admitted to me that her daughter was my husbands biological daughter and as soon as she told me she said she wanted to go to her village which I told her it was a good idea because I had to figure out a way to tell hubby.She knew her ass would be beat off had he come to know she told me without his permission.When I told him he told me he would kill her he was so angry.I like an idiot obvious of the truth at that time thought she was pregnant before the divorced which she was butttttttttt……..What a nightmare.

  • Spirited

    November 24, 2014

    Salaam guys,

    Hope everyone’s holiday prep is going well. On my end, the family was going to do a dinner, but one of the aunts started some drama and it was called off http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_unsure.gif

    I agree with Ana, I don’t feel a single shred of sympathy for these poor “innocent” Pakistani men trying to cover up the facts so they can continue scamming women. Pakistani men need to start following Islam, stop lying through their teeth about anything and EVERYTHING, then maybe their words would carry some weight. [rolling my eyes here]

    @Ana, actually, I think the majority of the Pakistani women who would be worth having a discussion with are poor, housebound, probably without internet so it wouldn’t be possible to talk with them anyway. Most of the “modern” women there are no different than the typical scheming mother-in-law types or “westernized” gossipy valley girl and most likely wouldn’t entertain dealing with a man trying to screw them over since they’d be looking to screw the guy over themselves lol.

    I say more power to the Pakistani women who are scheming, controlling, and demanding. That’s the kind of treatment these men deserve because of how they are http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_cool.gif Being good to them only results in messing your own life up lol. You can bet I have been warning women in my own life FAR away from any Pakistani (and Arabs). I encourage people to marry any other Muslim but those two groups! http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_yes.gif

  • anabellah

    November 24, 2014

    Gail,

    I feel very good about having this blog as an outlet for women who have fallen prey to these Pakistani men we speak of. It’s way sad. What’s really sad is that Pakistani men come to this blog with attitude becuz we share information in an effort to warn women of what they may walk into if they date or wed a Pakistani man. Asim think it’s okay for his people to ride up out of Pakistan on the tail of a monkey (a foreign woman), and have no regard for her. It’s typical; many of them have no regard for any woman.

    As much as I would like for Pakistani women to come forward and speak on this blog, the same as you do, I think it’s wishful thinking at best. Many probably don’t care enough about the problem, as they are down with it (in agreement) or they fear acid will be thrown in their faces; they’ll get shot in the head; or thrown in prison for speaking out against their people. The only Pakistani women who are safe from repercussions such as it are women such as “Spirited” who was born and raised in America. The problem we speak of seems larger than life. Nothing, you, I and all put together on this blog could do to make a dent in trying to work on the problem. Look at the Pakistani girl who got shot in the head, “Malala”. She won the Nobel Peace Prize. People in Pakistan condemned her for it. They’ve ostracized her.

    I think you did good by being forthcoming with your ex-co. You told her straight so she wouldn’t be deluded, and waste the rest of her life being strung along on false hope. Until the people in Pakistan get their act together, they should expect to have gloomy, dismal lives. Foreign women need to know what to expect, if they get involved with some of these characters.

  • Gail

    November 23, 2014

    Mari2,
    I agree with u in all honesty does the whole thing just not seem totally insane?
    Really it blows my mind.What is your guess what he will do? I don’t understand how men can just quite a good job thinking that decent jobs come a dime a dozen when they know full well they don’t just to satisfy a mother that is already complaining about him not having enough money in the first place(eye roll) lol

  • Gail

    November 23, 2014

    Ana,
    I agree 100%.Everyone knows well in that culture what is going on and this is not a new problem it has been going on for a pretty long time.I think in all honesty we have brought this issue to light through this blog.I feel very blessed that we have this outlet to warn woman.However I wish more Pakistani woman would come forward and shed more light on the issue from a their perspective.I think it would be a huge help if we could get a dialog going between woman to figure out ounce woman r in the situation from both sides how to best handle it.I love to brainstorm.I am also a huge advocate of if the wives can work together then the husband can’t be telling different stories to each wife.Both sides are getting abused and I believe Pakistani woman coming forward and speaking about their children being taken to other countries and them being left behind in Pakistan or the husband just leave his Pakistani wife and kids in Pakistan and run for a better life himself.Yeah I would love to brainstorm this more in depth with Pakistani woman.

  • Mari2

    November 23, 2014

    Asim,
    I am certainly not bashing Pakistani men as an entirety, nor am I bashing my husband who already had citizenship when we married. My Pakistani husband has always been upfront with me about the impending marriage to cousin girl that his mother has chosen/insisted upon. I can agree to polygamy for the sake of Islam, no problem. My issue is family-forced marriage and resultant polygamy that is not for the sake of Islam, but for the sake of culture. The whole “we gotta keep this rock-strewn plot of no man’s land in the family” so you have to marry your cousin whether you want to or not. That is what I can’t understand. Yes, plenty of men want visas to come to the US to escape the poverty, joblessness, and lack of opportunities. Their families want that too. So not only do the wives willingly (kinda) prostitute their husbands, the mothers of these men are willing to do the same.

    M is going back soon to marry his cousin, but right now I am not so much worried about the marriage etc., but that the family is expecting him to stay for 2 months. He and I had a serious conversation about the repercussions of a two month stay in pak. M. doesn’t have the luxury of paid days off, after 10 days allotted leave elapses with the corporate company job, his job is lost. The other job is pretty much, no work, no pay. I asked him if he can 1) pay for a wedding and 2) afford to lose 60 days of pay. Then job #2 is the part time job that gives him health insurance at a good cost. To leave for 8 weeks means that not only will he lose his job, but he will lose his opportunity for health insurance and once again have to pay a penalty come tax time. No matter what he decides, I will be fine but I worry about what he is at risk for losing (all that hard work).

  • anabellah

    November 23, 2014

    As Salaamu Alaikum & Hello Everyone, :-)

    My thoughts are that any Pakistani who reads the post is not concerned with it unless he wants to find and wed a foreign woman or he condones what they are said to do. It’s the only reason they take offense. Those who comment that it’s wrong I published the post are probably only upset because we may rain on their parade.

  • Marie

    November 23, 2014

    Asim, I understand what your saying, you like many other Pakistani men come here and say the same. What I think you and others need to understand is this blog is not about immoral people, it’s not about immigration, it’s not about people wanting a better life. It’s about polygamy. Yes, there are people all around the world who marry for visas, money and the like. For example, it’s known that young, handsome Spanish, Italian, African men set out to find a older lonely, rich women to marry to spend her money and make it to UK or USA, however these men are not polyganous. There are many blogs, forums and TV programmes that speak of such things and thats where the woman dealing with such men go to find answers or to warn other woman who are at risk of falling in the same trap. There are woman who hang out at posh, expensive bars and clubs to find a millionaires to marry, but they are not polyganous. They all lie cheat and decive but none of them are married to their cousin or planning to. That is what brings woman like Gail to a polygamy blog, the fact that the Pakistani men are or are planning to be polyganous. We are not telling any women to NOT marry a Pakistani man, we are telling them to BE AWARE of what their intentions MAY be. They should do their homework.

  • Gail

    November 22, 2014

    Asim,
    One more Quick thing I was honest with my Pakistani cowife when she said she was coming to USA.I looked at my husband and flat told him r u going to tell her or am I.He then proceeded to explain to her that she was not ever coming to USA and she got silent.I told her to her face that the only way she was coming to USA was if hubby and I divorced and that was not going to happen.Then I explained to her further I was our husbands only legal wife and that he legally divorced her in a Pakistani court before I ever even set foot in Pakistan and that even if my husband and I divorced he would have to remarry her and that would send red flags to immigration that he used me to get immigration.Obviously she was more than shocked hubby divorced her in Pakistani court and it was real divorce.
    Believe me it shocked her right back into reality real quick.Needless to say her and her family were demanding hubby to divorce me after I was truthful with her.I don’t know man.

  • Gail

    November 22, 2014

    Asim,
    Welcome to the group.I am sure it seem that we r male Pakistani Bashing on the blog but I assure u that is just not the case.Most of the woman that r married to the Pakistani men have decided to stay married to them and make it work but the facts remain the same that Pakistani men as u say grab the tail of the monkey and follow the monkey to a better a life then why not be honest instead of killing the monkey that saved your life when u r done using it to get out of the forest so to speak.It’s not cool to lie and cheat people and destroy lives to save your own.Where is the love of G.D in that thinking?
    It not just a Pakistani male problem either the Pakistani female wives do not stop their husbands from lying and I will go as far to say they r part of the problem in respect to they r perfectly fine with their prostituting their husbands out in hopes/lies that their husbands tell them they are marrying the foreign woman for them their Pakistani wife.The Pakistani wife gets very happy and arrogant thinking her husband is going to eventually divorce the foreign wife and he will bring her to USA.
    That happened to me exactly as I have described it and I am certain I am no the only woman this has happened to.U tell me where the fairness in that is at and I will be more than happy to shut my mouth and stop warning other foreign woman about Pakistani men.
    Yes it might be happening all over the world but like Ana said we have not experienced other men really doing it so much.If u have any idea how to screen for scammers I am all ears.

  • anabellah

    November 22, 2014

    Asim, thank you for inputting,

    I’ll gladly write about those other people whom you described when and if any of those people ever comes here and speak about their experiences. No one who you described in the five years and nine months that this blog has existed has come forward and complained of a situation similar to what exists with Pakistani men. People come here and speak of the problems they have with Pakistani men. The commentators are here speaking of what they’ve experienced and some are still experiencing with Pakistani men.

    You ask, if “people still make perceptions on other’s people’s experience?” People aren’t simply sitting around making perception. They speak of what has happened or is happening in their lives. Some here who haven’t experienced it, listen, ask questions and try to give advice to others who are in the predicament. No one says it’s only a problem that exist with Pakistani people.

    It’s one thing to find a spouse to get a better life, it’s another thing to have a wife already and not let the other woman whom he pursues know about it. It’s another thing for a Pakistan man to know he has every intention of marrying his cousin, which he knew about since near birth, and conceal it from a foreign woman so he could marry her too. This is about lies, deceit, and polygamy. It goes much deeper than someone wanting to marry another for a better life. I think the average person consider whom he or she marries in hope of having a better life.

  • Asim

    November 22, 2014

    Goodness me, i just can’t believe that how come stereotype people still exists. I went through the whole article and was wondering that do people still make perceptions on other’s people’s experience? This is really wrong because everyone sees things from a different angle. Firstly its not only pakistani men but every man from a poor asian or african country does the same so there is no point saying that these are only pakistani. Secondly if you search in google you will find enough cases where British or european girls are trying to find american husbands to get a better life in USA because you guys mean nothing to them except than visitors. And last but not least is that this article should have focused on immigrant people’s intentions rather than pakistani people/husbands intentions because people are same everywhere and passion or greed makes them forget better human values. Forget your nationality and try to analyse yourself in a position where you are stuck with a monkey in the forest and you don’t have a way out except than holding the tail of monkey till the time you don’t reach in a city full of people. I guess, you ll get your answer. :)

  • Gail

    November 21, 2014

    Aries,
    Welcome to the group!
    I am thankful u figured out before u married him.

    Ana,
    This is my biggest fear with foreign woman marrying Pakistani men.The men will marry the foreign wife and after he gets what he wants from her/visa immigration,Citizenship he will leave her.I won’t say I was lucky because my husband did not divorce me because I don’t see it that way in some ways I feel it is much harder to stay and deal with the BS instead of divorce for woman.It is kinda a catch 22 your D@mned if u do and D@mned if u don’t in most cases esp where children r involved.

  • anabellah

    November 21, 2014

    Besides trying to use and take advantage of foreign women, they refuse to let their own women marry foreign men. They are greedy, selfish, little somethings :-(

  • anabellah

    November 21, 2014

    aries, Welcome and thank you for your input

    Be thankful you found out about the guy before you got in too deep. The more I read about this problem, the more I believe just as these men know they are expected to marry their cousins, they know they are expected to hook up with a foreign wife to get their needs and the needs of their families met (visa, wealth etc).

    Women should beware. All many of these men care about is themselves and their families in Pakistan.

    There, of course, are exceptions. Some meet up with foreign wives, fall in love with them and kiss those expectations goodbye. Good for them!

  • aries

    November 21, 2014

    I definetely agree with all written above…I met a pakistan guy in Uk who tried to do the same with me…he was sweet, romantic, kind, wonderful, at a first time, but he just wanted me to fall in love with him and get married to get visa….I fortunately discovered his intention and left him in time. Pakistani men are terrible!!

  • Cowives Club

    November 21, 2014

    Thanks gail thats what i was thinking

  • Gail

    November 21, 2014

    Mari2,
    I wish I could tell u it will get better but sorry chicky it won’t to be frank.It is just something u and him are going to have to deal with and believe me it is going to get way worse unfortunately.Gosh I hate to say this but so many times Pakistani wives family is so D@mn demanding on her husband and his family.It really is mind blowing to be frank.My excowife parents demanded money,houses,vehicles,Home full of furniture.To be frank everything those people have basically my inlaws gave them it is just insane.her and her family took extra advantage because hubby’s sister was married in that family.
    In all honesty I will tell u if u don’t have your own bank account u might better think to get it and don’t let him know how much u have in it simply because if he don’t know how much u have he can’t ask for it in the future is my thinking.
    I am not going to lie it is going to be a hard road but hopefully everything will work out in the end.

  • Gail

    November 21, 2014

    Cowives Club,
    I can only give my opinion but from what I have seen with Pakistani men at some point the majority will marry back home in Pakistan.It doesn’t matter if they have 2 or 3 foreign wives they will eventually go back home and marry a Pakistani wife thats if they don’t already have one back home the foreign wife doesn’t know about like in my case.

  • Spirited

    November 20, 2014

    Salaam everyone,

    I hope your days are moving along well.

    @Ana lol, oh yes Coco and Gail and Mari2 (among others) know from experience, the driving in Pakistan (and India) is insane and hilarious. You never quite know what to expect and people can maneuver their cars through the tightest spots, you wouldn’t expect it lol.

    @Mari2, I totally see what you mean. The problem is, the people in Pakistan don’t have any notion of the taxes and fees that need to be paid here in the US. They see the standard of life, which IS among the highest in the world & even the poor here have a better life than the poor in 3rd world countries. So they see this and think that it means whoever comes here has a red carpet rolled out for them. I believe Pakistan does have taxes like taxes for owning a home, but most people don’t pay (or can’t) & the government doesn’t (or can’t) enforce the collections, so people just assume there’s no taxes and think it’s the same everywhere. I remember my husband was blown away by how many taxes there are and the cost if most things compared to back in Pakistan. Lots of goods there are fairly cheap since China is nearby (and is a close ally of the country). Just something to keep in mind, I guess, that they just don’t actually realize it isn’t rainbows and unicorns here unless they were trying to make a living themselves.

    I kind of forgot if there was anything else I was going to mention right now, too sleepy lol. Talk to you guys soon!

  • Mari2

    November 20, 2014

    Coco, Gail and others,

    Salam. I hear what you all are saying. First of all, I don’t want M. to be frustrated by his wife as she really is the innocent party in the family machinations. I actually feel for her as I think she may think she caught the golden goose (which in a way she has). But anyone who lives here in the US without a trust fund or lottery winnings knows that life is not easy here, and we all have to work. Especially in areas such as ours which has a high cost of living.

    I hold no grudge against cousin wife and her unschooled view of the US as the land of milk and honey. Nor do I dislike her at this time for any particular reason. @coco yes after some months M may not view his arranged marriage as “shit”. That would be good for him and her. I only hope that he can view it as positive in light of the pressures he has/is facing. His biggest issue is that his relatives “don’t get it”. Just because he is the US doesn’t mean he is floating in money. He had hoped that when his mother came here and saw how hard and long the two of us worked that she would understand the importance of being frugal. But she doesn’t understand bills, utilities and taxes. It’s like in her mind he works therefore he should have money and lots of it. His relatives in Pakistan accuse him of being “cheap” when he won’t buy them the latest cell phones or tablets when he himself doesn’t have one. Oh and “people will talk” if there is gold plated jewelry instead of solid gold sets.

    @Gail…no he would NEVER go against the wishes of his family. If he lived alone here he said he would, but because of his mother and siblings in Pakistan as you know any resistance could cause them harm by other family members.

    The frustrations with marriage to cousin girl is compounded by the fact that while funding his own wedding, M is expected to pay for sibling tuition AND his younger sister’s wedding expenses as well. Then he is expected to support siblings at home whom are unemployed. AND, cousin/wife’s father has no job. No money and 4 kids. Soon-to-be MIL already calls M cajoling him because he’s “cheap” and won’t provide ALL of his BIL’s (he got one for the eldest) with cell phones. M sees the writing on the wall…I want, I want, I want.

    Yes, in many places pathan women are low key and about serving their husbands. And maybe she will be one of those girls. But her parents are not. Her brothers are not. Her mother certainly is not. Nor is M’s mother either. She’s all about proving her son’s success to others in her village. He forsees the monetary issues ahead, and as a person who works 18 hours a day at two jobs, 6 days per week, the possible monetary future demands highly worry him. And when cousin girl has children? What then?

  • Mari2

    November 20, 2014

    Lol about the traffic in Pakistan. Entire families can balance on a motor bike. No mini van…no problem. It amazed me that women could keep chador intact while precariously balanced on a motor bike. Talent! Toddlers don’t fall off the handle bars either. Forget seat belts or car seats. Nope. Just jam 10 people in a 5 seater and motor on. My BIL would have a migraine after driving us places. Driving is best described as freestyle, and drivers need the reflexes of a cat.

  • coco

    November 20, 2014

    Ana
    You’ve got no idea about the traffic of Pakistan a horse made you laugh but let me further enlighten you lol I drive here as I don’t like keeping a driver with me all day long I find it less complicated and efficient manoeuvring around the city myself while I’m here so when your driving on main roads your driving next to other cars, various buses and trucks, rikshas/tuktuks, horse carts, donkey carts, motorcycles, bicycles, and dozens of people along with stray cats/dogs crossing the road whenever they please even on a green light, Ooo and let’s not forget on the streets fruit/vegi carts garbage/recycle carts pushed by men, cows/buffaloes crossing in a herd as they please while one is trying to drive so I like to say driving in Pakistan is like playing grand theft auto you gotta look north, south, east, west, north-west, north-east, south west and south east cuz you never know what will fly or jump in your direction! They really should make a GTA Karachi city version it would be massive! hahahahaha ;)

  • coco

    November 20, 2014

    Mari2
    I have empathy for the situation that your husband is facing with this cousin being imposed as a wife by his mother’s pressure but trust me when I say all this frustration he’s going through right now will deflate a few months after he’s married. Now I’m not saying this to you to put you in further distress wallahee I just want you to be prepared as to what may lie ahead of you. My fiancé being from a Pathan tribe went through the very same forced marriage as majority Pathan men face! He was bitter, hurt and enraged YESSSSS! I even remember telling everyone here that he says he hates her and isn’t attracted to her at all BUT it’s seven months later and NO he doesn’t hate her. He was furious with her, his parents, his family and even with the babies of the family probably lol “at the time” yet today he loves his parents his family just the same as he did before he was forced to marry her. He does not have hate for the wife at all he cares for her loves her as one would love anyone who’s a part of their life I’m just saying that be prepared that he won’t have so much hate for this “shit” as time passes. Sometimes we think otherwise, Pathan woman are “mostly” raised and taught to respect their husbands it’s not about love with them it’s about existing to regard and obey their husband… We are woman raised in the west we do respect them and obey them to a certain understandable point lol but also hold a deep opinion and a voice that we very much use when we feel the need to lol just keep that in mind that these girls don’t have a choice to have a opinion and we do because we are loved by a man that disregards these attributes out of love for us, so if change is to occur in the coming months don’t try to compete with your co for his love and attention we can’t compete with them they basically can do no wrong in the eyes of their husbands “mostly” so just be YOU be the person he loves CHOSE and married. Bring yourself to be okay with the possibility of him loving her with time it’s fine it really really is as long as the love he has for you isn’t affected or altered Mari2 being yourself is enough to keep everything just as it was before :) xo

  • Cowives Club

    November 20, 2014

    aslamu alikum

    i wanted to ask ..if a pakistani man has a foreign wife and lives in her country with her and then looks for a second wife do you believe that he may have a wife back home too …

  • anabellah

    November 20, 2014

    @Spirited,

    I took a look at a video of the traffic in Pakistan, as you suggested. It reminds me of the traffic at Hajj several years ago. It’s easier just to walk. I was shocked to see a horse in the traffic LOL

  • Gail

    November 19, 2014

    Ana,
    I really don’t think Marie2 husband getting agitated is going to really help the situation to be honest.I just can’t imagine him going against his family unless his family had a fallout with the girls family then u could say ok maybe possible but otherwise I really doubt he would call off the marriage.It seems he got upset after his mom accused him of not being able to save enough money and if that is the case then it goes to show how much pull his mother has on him to make him that upset.He knows he is stuck and I think it is very frustrating to me a Pakistani or Indian man living in USA in this culture but also very much stuck in their own culture.They don’t admit it but it does show in their frustrations.

  • Gail

    November 19, 2014

    Mari2,
    Don’t fret it girl he may be sick to death of everything but I don’t see him going against mommy dearest unfortunately.As far as the girl she is going to be very happy she caught a big fish and she will be telling everyone she knows that her husband is in USA.She will be treated very nice by her family members.Pakistanis love USA and UK for making money.

  • anabellah

    November 19, 2014

    @Fatima,

    I think you’re speaking of the video about force marriages. Here’s the link, but I will send it via email, as well, Insha Allah. I really like the video.

    https://vimeo.com/15846990

  • ~Fatima~

    November 19, 2014

    Ana.. can you email me the link for that video on forced marriages.. I really found it good for some of my friends to see but I cant seem to save the link from here.Thankyou for sharing that.. Ive watched it twice..
    Ive been busy lately with work.. Its our busy season time and a little overbearing..
    I will check back in later.. going to make a cup of tea and call it a night..
    Goodnight ladies…

  • anabellah

    November 19, 2014

    @Mari2,

    You should feel good that M is becoming agitated and fed up with the craziness that is happening with him, the cousin and the family. Maybe he’s beginning to see and hear what you’ve been saying to him about the reality of it all. I can only imagine the affect it’s all having on you to know the truth and see how absurd all that is occurring is, and not be able to do a darn thing about it. I feel for you, sis.

  • anabellah

    November 19, 2014

    In BBC News the following was stated:

    “Correspondents say arranged marriages are the norm in Pakistan, and to marry against the wishes of the family is unthinkable in many deeply conservative communities.”

    For full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30113128
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27619669

  • Mari2

    November 19, 2014

    It’s really sad. Here is M’s cousin getting ready to marry an older man whom she barely knows. Maybe she is excited. Maybe she thinks she hung the moon because he is a US citizen. Maybe she is just a young girl thinking of mendhi parties, and pretty dresses. Or maybe she is fearful of what is being imposed on her. I don’t know. This is what I do know: M showed me pictures of his family at a wedding of another cousin. In one snapshot there were several of M’s girl cousins and cousin wife with the bride. M pointed to the others and said: Look at them. But now I get this shit (while pointing to cousin girl). “Shit” is his description of cousin girl and her family and their demands. “Shit” is what he wants to say to his mom when she asks why after working 2 jobs he doesn’t have x, y, or z when he is busy paying for cost of living here AND school fees and home maintenance in Pakistan. “I’m done with this shit.” is what M said to me when confronted by aunt for his budget for cousin girl’s clothing after he walked away from yet another 18 hour, minimum wage shift.

  • Mari2

    November 19, 2014

    @Spirited
    I get what you are talking about with regards to familiarity/comfort when marrying into the pre existing family structure. Yes there are some checks and balances to consider within family marriages that protect women members of the family (albeit vague at times). The real issue arises with such conjoined marriages when the marriage isn’t working for the couple involved but divorce is out of the question for the couple because to do so would lead to rifts within the family structure. Or the threat of divorce is used as leverage/blackmail against certain family members by familial relatives in an effort to make them toe the line (for the other family’s end).. So a couple who would other wise NOT want be together, remain together specifically to avoid family conflict. It’s a form of family imprisonment in the guise of marriage. And to what end? What is the gain? Say a familial couple happy in their marriage is broken up primarily because one relative had something on another one, or a property dispute, or something? If one isn’t going to marry for love, or some mutual connection other than because he/she is family, then why marry unless there are gains to be had (for yourself).

  • Marie

    November 18, 2014

    I just wanted to share two real life story’s as it ties in with what is said about some Pakistani men.
    I git speaking to a sister at the school. She said she asked her Pakistani husband for a divorce due to the fact that he didn’t pray and only cared about making money, her friends told her she was foolish for wanting to leave him given that she was provided with a Mercedes, 5 bedroom house in a nice area, her kids went to private school and had all the clothes shoes jewellery and holidays she could wish for. She has since re married a practicing Muslim. She lives in a 2 bed flat in a poverty stricken area, doesn’t drive and works to send her children to a part time Islamic school, BUT she’s the happiest she’s ever been and is woken up every morning by her husband for fajr (morning prayer)

    The other story was a TV programme that I watched called “make me a Muslim) it was about a Muslim born woman who wanted to know why women convert/revert to Islam. In it she meets a white British woman who was “dating” a Pakistani man. The man was ‘forced’ to marry his cousin by his mother, 6 years later he marries the British woman and she lives down he road from the cousin. In the programme she (the British woman) states that the husband doesn’t have sex with the cousin (one of the ‘rules’ she put in place) that the husband never wanted to marry the cousin and doesn’t love her. I was thinking she needs to come here (the blog) and talk to the many women in her situation.

  • Spirited

    November 16, 2014

    Salaam,

    @Mari2, One thing that I think you don’t notice is that for most Pakistani families, it wouldn’t be moving in with people who are unknown. The cousin and especially the aunt (the girl’s future mother-in-law) would be well-known. Families mingle a lot, its not like they would be strangers, they would know each other quite well. I can understand why many people in Pakistan prefer marriages in their own families. They know the people the girl will be living with and often, its a “safe” arrangement, especially for the girl because she’s familiar with the in-laws, and knows the family, and if the guy was going to do something mean, he’d think twice (usually). Of course with the way people are these days, they don’t care about right or wrong so they go ahead with their own base desires anyways.

    @Gail, lol yea I know what you mean. Its so stupid that they think that men marrying outside the caste or even religion will be no problem, but oh no the women can’t. Even though it’s the woman who will be the prime source of information and behavior for the next generation, and marrying outside women will DEFINITELY cause the kinds of problems they think they’re avoiding by preventing women marrying whoever they want.

    @Ana, its a good point. I think the way the castes work in India is based on the old class system they had. Its not exactly the same as how it works in Pakistan (as far as I can tell). But since much of Pakistan was populated by ex-Indians, I’m sure the influence is still there. I remember a brother-in-law and my husband explaining about a clan called “Kammi” who were known basically as the garbage removal service in the village because they were poor and uneducated, often given food for their services for the wealthier families, but recently some of their people had become educated and the rest of the family refused to do menial work anymore and considered themselves among the higher class, but most of the other clans in the village still sneered at them and kept their distance or somesuch. It was interesting to hear about.

    About marrying in the same nationality and all, I think its important to people because then you keep the same culture and traditions, plus its a whooooole lot easier to relate to each other. Its already quite difficult for men and women to understand one another, lets be real. Its harder when you get cross-cultural lol. Beyond the “omg we’re so in-love” phase, when reality kicks in, it helps when you have someone you can relate to. Obviously its not the same for everyone, but it is that way for some. I know some people who have married out of their nationality/culture and they speak of being hugely at rest when they visit family “back home” (whichever country) and enjoy “my own” food and “my own” clothes, finally can speak in “my own” language again and games, traditions, music, art etc. Then when its time to go back to the wife or husband and kids, its like going home to strangers and these people seem to regret their past decision of marriage to the spouse. Not the same for everyone, but it DOES happen.

    Fostering brotherhood can also be done in many other ways besides marriage. Your questions kind of seemed like they were finding fault with people who want to stay in familiar territory and I don’t believe there is anything wrong with that. http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_good.gif I only have issue with the liars and schemers :)

    Well, that’s all for now, gotta go tend to some stuff. Be back later on~!

  • Gail

    November 16, 2014

    Ana,
    I honestly don’t know how many caste they have in Pakistan.I just know some about the Syed Caste and that they believe they r direct blood line from the prophet Muhammad.I do know they are not willing as far as what I understand to marry out of the Syed line.I asked why and my husband told me something along the lines that they believe themselves superior to all other cast.Like they r the top cast line.He said a Syed woman would not want to marry a non Syed man because she considers herself like his mother(more advanced than him because of the blood line or something)Sounds whackadoodle to me to be honest and maybe Spirited or Coco can explain a little better than me.
    I do understand one thing my hubby told me about mixing that does however make some logical sense is that when it comes to Shia and Sunni marriages not being good because they do have different beliefs like on Muharram Shia play music that drives a normal person CRAZY and loud and it can be heard in the streets they play so loud.If u are a Sunni married to a Shia it would be fighting and abuse between families because they would never agree.I can kinda see the logic in that.
    I will take to my husband about the Prophet Muhammad marrying outside tribal woman to distribute the wealth and see what he has to say about that as I find it very interesting.I agree with u I read that he also married different woman from all over and didn’t keep it in the family.
    My husband says they do it to protect their females from divorce but I don’t know.
    My husband has a very strong desire to marry our 3 children with his brothers 3 children in Pakistan.He thinks it will be the best idea but I don’t think the kids will go for it and I flat told him I will side with the kids and what they decide in the future so he is not to expect I will go along with his program.

    I am curious is there anyone else out there reading that is Pakistani or married to a Pakistani man that has clear desire to marry your children in the family?It is something I am struggling with in my life and although I understand how it can be helpful to do it financially and esp in our case marrying r 3 to his elder brothers 3 kids(we just happened to have the exact perfect amount in kids and ages) I struggle with it ethically.

  • anabellah

    November 16, 2014

    To expound on it a bit more, how does it foster an Islamic brotherhood when Pakistanis only marry Pakistanis? I understand that in Pakistan, it’s not about religion and I agree with Spirited that we could take it a step further and say it’s about lack of morality.

    Pakistanis not only marry Pakistanis, but must marry someone from a particular tribe. We’ve seen how they feel and what they think of the foreign wives. The Pakistani family considered them outsiders and treat them as such. The Pakistani family never really accept foreign wives as family.

    Pakistani women can’t marry foreign men. Muslim men and women should be free to marry any Muslim man or woman, as long as they stay within the guidelines that Allah has set – believers for believers, the pure for the pure, the un-pure for the un-pure. Don’t marry the lustful. Restricting the marriage within the nationality, and to take it further – in the immediate family – and keeping the wealth there to be consumed only by them is not Islamic, based on what I know.

    They’ve made the parent (the mother) lord. Allah tells us to be kind to parents because they suffered in child birth and endured much in caring for us. He didn’t say they own their children’s lives.

    One of my favorite video regarding forced marriage is the one below. It addresses how parents take over their children lives and that it is wrong.

    This Khutbah was delivered by Khalid Latif at the Islamic Center at New York University on October 8th, 2010. To hear more of our lectures or to subscribe to our podcast, please visit icnyu.org

    Speaker Bio: Imam Khalid Latif was appointed the first Muslim chaplain at NYU in 2005 where he began to initiate his vision for a pluralistic future on and off campus for American Muslims. He was also appointed the first Muslim chaplain at Princeton University in 2006. Spending a year commuting between these two excellent institutions, he finally decided to commit full-time to New York University’s Islamic Center where his position was officially institutionalized in the spring of 2007. Under his leadership, the Islamic Center at NYU became the first ever established Muslim student center at an institution of higher education in the United States. Imam Latif’s exceptional dedication and ability to cross interfaith and cultural lines on a daily basis brought him recognition throughout the city, so much so that in 2007 Mayor Michael Bloomberg nominated Imam Latif to become the youngest chaplain in history of the New York City Police Department at the age of 24.

    Imam Latif has not only managed to solidify the basis of a strong Muslim community at NYU that seeks to emphasize inclusiveness and understanding of others without compromise, but has also worked tirelessly to foster dialogue with people of other faiths in order to clarify misconceptions and encourage mutual education. Through his work Imam Latif has demonstrated not only an exceptional dedication to gaining and disseminating religious knowledge and values, but has begun to carve out a much-needed space for young American Muslims to celebrate their unique identity and have their voices heard in the larger public sphere. He is a sought after speaker, having lectured throughout the United States and in various parts of the world and has been quoted, featured and appeared in numerous media outlets including BBC, NPR, CNN, the NY Times, New York Magazine, Newsweek,Time Magazine, BET and GEO TV. Amongst many awards and distinctions for leadership and community service over the last few years, Imam Latif has been named one of the 500 most influential Muslims in the world by Georgetown University's Prince Alwaleed Bin Talaal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding and The Royal Islamic Strategic Studies Centre for the last two years (2009 & 2010).

  • anabellah

    November 16, 2014

    As Salaamu Alaikum & Hello Everyone,

    All joking aside. One thing I wonder about cousin marriages or just marrying people to their same people of the same nationality is whether it hinders people from coming together of all races and nationalities to know and love one another. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) married women of various tribes to cement relations. There is an ayah in Quran that tells us not to eat up our wealth amongst ourselves, and just keep it in the family. It all leads me to question whether it’s Islamically correct to marry all Pakistani’s to Pakistanis and to marry foreigners to get the wealth and send it all home to the Pakistani’s. Those are my questions. I wrote this quickly. It’s Fajr time where I am.

  • anabellah

    November 16, 2014

    No, Gail, but for real, when it comes to marrying cousins to cousins – homey don’t play that!…snickering

    I’m in a playful mood, as you all must see. No offense to anyone. I get besides myself at times – whatever that means.

  • anabellah

    November 16, 2014

    Gail,

    I only have one first cousin and the answer to your question is hell to the no! Now, I did have a second cousin or something (I never kept up with the family tree stuff). He was way handsome, but nauseating. He was a player and overly full of himself. It took a lot to stomach his conversation.

    The caste system is a whole other animal. Aren’t there like 13 or more of them in India? I don’t know about Pakistan. It may be the same type of thing there. I just remember when I was out in the work force an Indian guy came to speak to us about cultural diversity. He spoke of the caste system. He actually belittled the Asians who worked at gas stations, saying they were uneducated. His saying it rubbed me the wrong way.

    My finger is tired typing on ya is phone. I gosta go lol

  • Gail

    November 16, 2014

    Spirited,
    Yeah u r correct on all accounts.I tend to talk about my own experience but for sure u r right.It is just a sad state of affairs.
    It is the same with caste also as u know.I mentioned to my husband lets look outside Syed Shia caste to find her a husband.He flat said NO it would never work and u can’t marry another caste because it will cause problems with religion etc… Also it is fine for the boys to marry any girl they want basically but the girls NO WAY they could never think to marry a European white Christian man.I don’t know I just shake my head and go on.

    Ana,
    So u wouldn’t like to get your groove on and marry a cousin hahah!

    Mari2,
    I understand exactly where u r coming from.I am the same way with my own inlaws.

  • anabellah

    November 15, 2014

    If I had to marry my first cousin, I’d probably barf in his face. I’d have to pay someone to shoot me in the head. I thank Allah much it’s not a reality.LOL

  • Mari2

    November 15, 2014

    @Spirited,
    Honestly I don’t think they are good to their own either. Especially since it’s all intermingled families that might take offense at almost anything anyway. The more I am on the periphery, the happier I become. There is NO way in my life now, yet alone when I was younger that I would want to be in the position of having to “please” my aunt/MIL. I cannot even fathom the weirdness I would have felt having to marry I cousin I barely knew, then to move to his house days later to live under the auspices of an aunt/MIL, SILs and BILs while my husband returned to another country. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

  • Mari2

    November 15, 2014

    @ Gail,
    They pretty much are nice to my face and not much else and yeah I know that. I avoid get togethers b/c I understand the gossipy nature. I may come across as cold (to them), but I would rather that than be caught up in the hive vagina which consumes them. Big reason why i prefer my own working (they have other things to worry about) friends. I told my mother the story of M’s sister and the clothes debacle, and my mom was floored by it all. Her take on it all was if women have that much time to make trouble over clothing, then they have way too much time on their hands. She told me that I should feel very sorry for them that their lives are so unfilled and empty.

  • Spirited

    November 15, 2014

    Oh and I just remembered something else, you guys might get a chuckle out of this.

    When my family was arranging my own marriage back in Pakistan, my mom’s family said there were Kashmiri families interested in me, but my father said No, Punjabi girls can only marry Punjabi men (it was actually more like “Are you crazy? We don’t give our girls to others! They are ONLY for Punjabi men!”). Now that is also culture. It’s funny now, sometimes my mom gets mad and she’s like “yeah great Punjabi men you have over there…” Lol

  • Spirited

    November 15, 2014

    Salaam everyone,

    I haven’t posted in awhile, but I’ve been reading when I can. Just making a quick post for now, then I’m planning to take a long drive off a short cliff. Ok no I’m kidding. Just a long drive lol.

    @Gail & Ana, the current conversation would probably fit better in the Pakistani men warning topic, but I wanted to add to what you guys mentioned.

    I don’t believe they are good to even “their own”. If they were, we wouldn’t hear of abandoned wives and children, would we? If they considered being good to even women of Pakistani origin (like me), these men wouldn’t scheme, lie, have adulterous “relationships” and betray the wife, would they?

    No, the ONLY thing they want or care for is a woman of fair complexion (at least lighter skin color than their own) and that she is able to get them citizenship of a western nation. Beyond that, they only look out for themselves and their parents (& maybe siblings). That’s what it all boils down to. It has NOTHING to do with religion. VERY LITTLE to do with culture, and EVERYTHING to do with a lack of morality.

    Heck, even with non-family marriages inside Pakistan (not marrying a cousin) the men overwhelmingly look for lighter skinned women. It’s why “skin brightening” products have a huge market there. Dark skinned women aren’t even given a second look and even considered somehow less of a person than a lighter skinned one. Even my father’s family did this. In fact, my own father. My father’s family is very dark skinned. He & one of his older brothers specifically demanded that they would only marry Kashmiri women (Kashmiris are light-skinned). This had nothing to do with religion. My father’s family is punjabi. Punjabis typically marry only with other punjabi clans. Marrying a Kashmiri had nothing to do with culture (as that was outside of the culture norm). It was only materialistic, selfishness & lack of morals. Is there any morality in marrying someone based only on skin color? Obviously not, at least not in my definition of the word. So that was a generation ago, and we see this generation how much further morals have slipped. Now it’s skin color & a visa ticket. Heh.

    Also, Gail, I wanted to say, I don’t think morality is something entirely taught. I think it’s something you have as a part of your soul or personality. Manners can be taught, but a person knows right from wrong intrinsically. The problem isn’t that Pakistani parents aren’t teaching their kids morals, I think these people that we hear about & deal with just don’t HAVE any. Obviously there are good people over there — I know many. But that doesn’t negate the fact that the bad seem to be outnumbering the good in this day and age.

    Alrighty, just wanted to get that out there and see you guys’ thoughts. I’ll see you later~http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_bye.gif

  • Gail

    November 15, 2014

    Ana,
    It is not even some Pakistani men.The majority simply marry in the family if they can.It will always be their first choice.
    Ana since we have brought this out in the open have u noticed how many foreign woman are coming forward just here on the blog and saying that their husbands are going back to Pakistan to marry their COUSINS?
    Here is the sad part the foreign wife doesn’t know that her husband has known all along that he would be marrying after her and he knew he would be practicing polygamy.He straight up deceived her.This is what I myself struggle with.
    The sad part is that the husbands are very tight lipped when it comes to telling his foreign wife very much.He will smooth it over and tell her what she wants to hear or what he thinks will get him off the hook.It is just one huge deceit game.
    This is the main reason I warn foreign woman DO NOT take a chance unless u r fully 100% prepared to accept polygamy.Granted my husband divorced his first wife and let her go BUTTTT make no mistakes it had nothing to do with me personally.It had to do more with his sister and her mistreatment at the hands of his 1st wife family.It truly had not 1 % anything to do with me.Had my excowife played her cards right and did not act up for just 3 months I would have divorced my husband and she would have had him straight up because at that time I had zero intentions of staying married to him.

  • Gail

    November 15, 2014

    Ana,
    That is pretty much the case as I have figured out over the years.Unless the are raised in USA from pretty much birth or a small baby they live according to Pakistani culture period the end.If any woman plans to marry a man in that culture she better darn well get ready for one heck of a bumpy ride and that is the truth in it.Here is the sad truth in it foreign woman want expect their husbands to meet them half way when it comes to her culture but I don’t see the men meeting the woman half way to be frank.
    That culture is a very male dominate culture and I don’t honestly see much if any difference between Pakistan culture and Afgan culture.OK sure they send their daughters for education but the majority of woman never use their education after marriage.Their education it seems is to merely catch a decent husband and not much more.
    With the foreign wives they r perplexed because after awhile they figure out smooth talking James Deen is not all that and a bag a chips after all.To make matters worse they don’t really fit in with their husbands family because of such vastly different views.
    In all honesty I would tell foreign woman don’t take a chance unless u understand and r willing to take the loss down the road.
    I am not just meaning divorce either but your loss of your own culture and your loss of space and freedom and don’t expect that u will ever be accepted.They see u as different not one of them.
    U are nothing more than a typical trophy wife and after your usefulness has run out u r expendable.That is how I perceive these marriages.
    Now granted my husband and I are getting along great these days but still that does not excuse the facts of the past and the hell I have went though from him and his family understand.
    I would encourage woman that are already married and finding themselves in a mess after marriage to learn all u can about the culture and be very bold and stand up for your rights in the marriage and scream and yell if u have to.U must do whatever it takes to get your voice heard.
    I believe all this has to do with the difference in cultures.Like for instance here in the States we are brought up not to lie,cheat,steal,etc.. and in Pakistani culture well simply they r not taught those morals.People will say they are taught the morals but I don’t believe it and have never seen it personally.
    Now in saying that are all interracial marriages doomed.No I don’t thinks so but it will take hard work and dedication on both sides to find a good solid happy medium.It has been 11 yrs for me and believe me I am still not there yet.I am working on it but I just don’t know because of the difference in cultures.Strangely it has nothing to do with religion as much as culture.
    Pakistani people claim to be Muslims but really it is a case of anything goes esp the men but in all honesty I have not had much luck with the woman either.
    Bottom line it is not a culture that will bend unless it is for your man to cheat on u and fornicate or commit adultery.lie,cheat,steal,etc… then hey they r totally down for that.

  • anabellah

    November 14, 2014

    Oh, Mari2,

    In the article it was interesting that the woman was married to her cousin. I think, as Gail indicated, it’s important that Western and European women be made aware that it’s typical for many Pakistani’s to wed their cousins and they have arranged marriages. Some Pakistanis take offense to this thread, as they believe the information should be hidden, so not to interfere with their agenda – to wed foreign women for immigration reason and to gain wealth to send back home. There is nothing wrong with making people aware of what is factual.

  • anabellah

    November 14, 2014

    Mari2,

    I read the article. It saddening to think what she went through and endured. When I was reading the article I kept looking to read that she called on Allah for help and she had faith etc. I didn’t read it. I read nothing about her belief in Allah. I only read she said God saved her, which is true. I didn’t, however, read anything about what she did in terms of worshiping Allah, believing and calling on Him. I only read what she did to survive and tried not to survive, and the help she sought from her sister and that of relatives who didn’t come through for her. It doesn’t sound Allah fit very well into the equation for her in her mind, based on what was written. http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_scratch.gif

  • anabellah

    November 14, 2014

    Gail,

    Do you think it could be as simple as they are about blood ties, family and nationalism, bottom line, period, exclamation point and end of story and we make it more complicated than it really is? We would like it to be the way we in the West live our lives? They will never truly accept any of us unless we are one of them; although they accept some better than others? They will use non-nationals for the benefit they provide and that it’s, not to say they won’t love the one (outsider) they are with? Yah think http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_unsure.gif

  • Gail

    November 14, 2014

    Mari2,
    I don’t know what to say about your mother and sister inlaws acting like that accept it does leave me wondering how they treat u as a whole.
    Mari2 are they good with u as in being genuine with u or is it fake.It took me forever to figure out my husbands family and when I did I decided to be nice but keep my distance.I wish I could like them for my husbands sake and don’t get me wrong here I don’t hate them but I really have no desire to be around them.I am trying to put a smile on my face around them as I feel thats the right thing to do but I don’t know.I am at a loss as much as u r I think.My inlaws do basically the same thing but they do it in other ways.Like they do not see my feelings and the hurt they put me through with all their nonsense.So obviously there is no love loss there on my part.

  • anabellah

    November 14, 2014

    @Mari2, As Salaamu Alaikum

    I know how upsetting it must have been for you to see them laugh at the pic of your mom because her hair was short after all she had been through. To laugh, regardless of the reason, wasn’t thoughtful or considerate of your feelings.

    It’s amazing that sitting around, shooting the breeze, and chatting about everyone’s lives seems to be the norm for most Pakistani women when gossiping is not the way of a Muslim. It appears to be many of the Pakistani women past-time from what I’ve heard here on this blog. Of course, we all sin, yet, for it to be a culturally acceptable sin http://polygamy411.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-monalisa/icons/wpml_unsure.gifI suppose since many don’t leave the house it’s all they’ve got to do.

    When I became Muslim, I cut the ties from my biologically family almost completely and one reason was because of the gossiping, the talking about people. It was common for my family and our friends to get together often and sit around the table eating, drinking and talking mostly about people. We’d talk about what had happened in the past and what was currently happening. I knew once I became Muslim and began to learn our religion (our way of life), I couldn’t partake in it any longer. Thus, I went my separate way.

    This is not Islamic, but a friend of mine once said, lower class people talk about people, middle class people talk about sports and events, upper class people talk about making money. It seemed to ring true, based on what I’ve observed in the States. Of course, there are exceptions to the rules.

  • Mari2

    November 13, 2014

    @Gail,
    There is sooo much that goes on within a pakistani family that I cannot even place my head around it. But Mashallah, my own family is void of talking about others or back biting. When I was in Pakistan last year, M’s mother asked me to show her a picture of my mom. I showed his mom and sisters a picture of my mom at the top of a mountain she climbed a year after she (my mom) recovered from being in a tick-bite induced coma. What did M’s mom and sis do? They laughed and made fun of my mom’s picture because her hair is short. Here is a picture of my mother, at 68 years of age, at the top of a mountain she climbed after nearly dying and all his mother and sis could was laugh because her (my mother’s) hair was short? Oh forget she was in a coma for months and all that. #Whypakistanipeopledontgetit

  • Mari2

    November 13, 2014

    Umer,
    I’m just going to lay it flat on the line and say MASHALLAH I was born elsewhere as a woman other than in Pakistan. Yes, as westerner things can hinky, or cultural, or both when dealing with transplanted Pakistani men. And I totally get that. But the wonderful thing is that no matter whom I am married to, no matter what conflicts may arise during our Islamic marriage here in the US, I don’t have to worry about cultural things such as this:
    http://www.dawn.com/news/1144238/a-life-less-ordinary-the-woman-who-fought-back

    M.’s cousin may very well need to worry about not giving birth to sons, pleasing her MIL and family. And that breaks my heart for her. Why? Because I know she may or may not succeed due in no part to her effort. Patriarchy/religiosity is a really screwed up place to be as a woman.

  • Gail

    November 13, 2014

    Ana,
    As much as Umer wants to protect his Pakistani brothers I want to protect my American sisters.I feel this issue should not be swept under the rug just because someone takes offense.I feel that woman will come to the blog looking for answers and I feel alot of the woman will be American woman or European woman because these are the countries Pakistani men target because of the high wages they can earn in European countries.It is my way to fix the wrong that has been done to me.
    Ana I am very grateful now I went through this journey.Maybe G.D picked me to go through this so I could share my story and help others not to give up and hope and understand the culture a little better.I don’t know but that is my hope.I feel so compelled to share my story and encourage woman HEY u r not worthless u r a child of G.D everything will work out just educate yourself and hang on for dear life.
    I had about as bad a situation as one could have in my opinion and I made it and I am a much better person for going through it I feel very well educated in Pakistani culture and I am living my life the way I want to live it with my husband and kids.
    I do hope that the next generation of Pakistani children will be more educated and less likely to act out in negative ways.
    I want to say that it is not only White European woman who r at risk but Pakistani American woman who have USA citizenship r also at risk like Spirited.I have seen through Spirited even these woman are at risk of being used by Pakistani men for Immigration.This is a moral issue nothing more.

  • anabellah

    November 12, 2014

    Umer,

    Welcome and thank your for imputing. I understand how you feel as a Pakistani male to know there is a post/thread out there telling the world that a woman should beware of Pakistani men, if they are considering them for marriage. As Gail stated, there are many women who have come forward about the problems of lies and deceit that they had encountered from Pakistani men. The men didn’t disclose to the new wife that they were already married or they knew they were intended to others and hid the fact until it was time to wed the other. They never let the foreign wife know that they were receptive to polygamy (which is taboo in many countries).

    You said “Warsi” stated there was a small percentage of Pakistani men involved. The percentage was large enough for her to speak out publicly about it. It was large enough for her to go to the media about it. In comparison to the number of people in Pakistan, it was significant enough to speak on it to the world.

    No good comes from being silent when there is a wrong taking place. If we could alert women of what they should consider when they contemplate marriage to a Pakistani male, it is all good. No one said the situation is absolute with all Pakistani men. We say “some”, “not all.” I think not many are foolish enough to think it applies to every single Pakistani male on the planet.

    There was a scam going on in the U.S. involving Nigerians. They were ripping people off, scamming them left and right. The problem was serious enough to get media attention. Am I skeptical when a Nigerian approaches me to do business with me or want me to invest in something. Heck yeah. You’re darn tootin. I want no parts of it. It’s the price people pay when a few ruin it for many.

    I think many Pakistani men are schooled in what they need to do to assure a better future for themselves and their families in Pakistan. If the Pakistani men want to USE women here, they should let the women know what they are doing, so the women could have a say in the matter. Honesty is the best policy.

  • Gail

    November 12, 2014

    Angel,
    My age is 43 and I am also older.I married my husband when I was 32.We have been married for 11 years and dated online for 1 year before marriage.
    My advice to u is take it slow but don’t be so ready to jump up and defend this man and his family right off the bat.Just take it slow.I have no doubt your husband will love u but when it comes to your cowife and her getting pregnant having kids etc… and if she tries to put pressure on him then it will leak over into your marriage.This is the problem I am seeing in your future possibly.
    Listen before u up and run and get married 1st to him think logically.
    If u marry him first then does that mean his Pakistani wife is staying in Pakistan or will she want to move to your country? U know that means he will be taking trips to Pakistani in the future I assume without u(although my husband took me with him and we all lived together from 3rd year marriage on anytime we were in Pakistan)
    Does your country accept Polygamy if he needs to bring his other wife and children in the future to live with u in your country?I am sure u have though about all this but just in case u haven’t I thought I would mention it.Welcome to the group hope u like here.

  • Gail

    November 12, 2014

    Angel,
    U sound really nice.Let me ask u does his mothers choice know about u?
    Here is the thing Angel that I found out the hard way.Pakistani woman in general will do like u said not contact or disturb u etc… but it has nothing to do with tradition.They know if they do disturb they may very well end up beat or worse DIVORCED.Pakistani woman hate divorce and it is a shame on them.Now in saying all that do not expect your Pakistani cowife to be grateful to u for anything.Mine was very nice to my face but stabbed me in the back and let everyone know she did not accept the situation.It became so bad that my sister inlaws pulled me aside and flat told me not to trust my cowife that she is not good.For yrs I would not listen to them thinking they had a grudge against her but as I figured later on she was acting like a witch.
    I should mention I am American and I live joint family system with my inlaws so I have first hand knowledge of how they work.I also thought my husband was wonderful and the best husband ever but in time I figured out he was anything but that.
    Here is the thing that bites and bites hard is that even thought u marry your Pakistani man u can be for sure your cowife and her mother not to mention other family members will want to get u out of the picture more than likely.

  • Gail

    November 12, 2014

    Umer,
    I won’t lie I was taken aback by your post and wrote u a comment then I decided to delete it.
    Now in saying that I can understand where u feel we might be picking on Pakistani people and Pakistani men in general but try to understand from a foreign woman perspective if u can how it feels when u r used then u come forwards and tell your story and then other woman come forward and keep saying ME TO.There comes point in time when u have to think to yourself this is not a few men doing this.
    Umer lets be honest the majority of Pakistani men r never getting out of Pakistan unless the marry out.Oh sure some will get work visa and some student visas but the big hope for a Pakistani man to leave Pakistan is to flat marry out to stay out.
    U and I both know the majority of men want to leave Pakistan because the wages suck to be frank and they see other men going outside the country and then sending money back and making properties and business etc… so yeah it looks like marrying out is the easiest way to accomplish these goals.
    Now in saying that I have no problem for a Pakistani man to marry outside his country or even be polygamous But I do have a problem when he lies about it and tries to be deceitful in the process.
    I have to disagree with u that these men are in the minority who r doing this.I think over the last several years is has turned into the majority.
    My husband has 2 brothers and all 3 of them have married outside of Pakistan if that tells you anything.

  • Umer

    November 12, 2014

    Salaam,

    Pakistan is a large country with a population of almost 200 million with diversity not only in races, languages and cultures but also in the educational level and intellect of people. I, being a Pakistani man, feel it insulting to use the word “Pakistani Men” for a small percentage of those uneducated and uncultured men who go to the UK and US to find better opportunities. Warsi has also mentioned a small percentage in her interview to Telegraph.

    So I would request not to stereotype and generalize Pakistani men as evil waiting to grab white women as prey. I have lived 10 years in the U.S and have married a white American lady. And Alhamdulillah, we moved to Pakistan to raise our children in a relatively safer environment. She is happy with me and so much so that she is even willing for me to marry another white woman from the UK or US as my second wife.

    So are we talking about exceptions here? If yes, then the minority of those evil Pakistani men are also exceptions because I know a lot of Pakistanis living in Pakistan who have foreign wives and they are maashAllah living a happy life.

    I also know many Arab women who have preferred Pakistani men over their Arab men just because Pakistani men are more caring to their wives and are more involved in their families.

    I ask Allah (SWT) to guide those lost men who have devious motives no matter which racial background they are from and to keep our sisters safe. Ameen.

    Sincerely

  • anabellah

    November 11, 2014

    @Angel,

    We welcome you here and thank you much for writing. You wrote an excellent post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for giving us more insight about Pakistani men and the culture. I have classified Gail as our Pakistan expert here. She is married to a Pakistani, Muslim man, and has lived in the country off and on for several plus years. You corroborated much that she has said. I agree with you that Pakistani’s shouldn’t be viewed as “low class” people, nor be disrespected. I think everyone here have been respectful of Pakistanis as people. They’ve elaborated on their experiences with some that have seem to be the cause of a lot of heartache and pain when they mix two lifestyles and are not forthcoming with their intent and with what they do.

    It’s nice to hear you have met a nice Pakistani man to be your husband/companion. I hope for you and he the very best. I’d simply suggest you not refer to yourself or other women as old, but rather “older.” “Old” has a negative connotation.

    I’d love to hear more of what you have to say, so please jump in and join us, if you feel so inclined. You are welcome :-)

  • Angel

    November 11, 2014

    Salam,
    It depends on how you look into the matter. As for me a 44 year old divorcee is almost impossible to marry a bachelor in my country. In Malaysia men get married quite early. A bachelor will never choose an old divorcee because they have better, younger choices. Their family will also give negative ideas.
    But to a pakistani survival is the most important. Not to say his love to an old woman is fake but he respects more if you are educated, a professional, independant and religious. There are also those who take advantage but there are also those who tell you the truth about their problems. If he gets married to his mother’s choice it doesn’t mean he loves her more than you. For him heart satisfaction is a second thing compared to survival at the first place because he comes from a poor country. He has to work hard for establishment.

    He has to shoulder the responsibilities of his father after he had passed away. Life span in Pakistan is shorter than other country. A man at age 35 has already disease like diabetes, kidney problem, high blood pressure ect because most of them married within relative circle plus bad eating habits and stressful life. They consume mostly meat, less vegetables and seafoods. So if he is early 30s, his health status is like early 40s in most people.
    It also depends on your luck. If you fall in love when he already married to his mother’s choice, you have to be the 2nd wife but a pakistani woman stays at home only and obey her husband. She will not simply call or provoke you. She knows her hnusband is doing a hard job in foreign country and that because of you he gets the citizenship status. Don’t treat him like servant or low class people. Animals also will run away if you treat like that. Just take care of your money and write wills for your assets if you don’t trust him fully. At least you have a legal/halal companion. Better be thankful rather than rating yourself too high.
    As for my case, I have met a bad pakistani man and also a good pakistani man. The bad one full of lies and just wanted to take advantage. But thankful to his relatives and friends who broke the secret. So you must mix around with them to get more information. Don’t look at them as low class people. They are mostly educated and have tertiary education level but their country is poor and corupt.
    The good pakistani man that I am planning to get married now is someone whom I respect more than the young men in my country. He takes up his father’s responsibilities since he passed away. His mother plans to match him with his cousin but I persuade him to marry me first because it is an honour. It is not a problem because We both are in love and his cousin is to fulfil tradition and responsibilities only. I can accept his 2nd wife because I cannot give him children anymore. It is because he is honest that he tells the truth. He cannot lie to the religious department and the embassy who will come out with his actual marital status. That’s the beauty of Islam who can understands peoples’ problems and situation. Think positive. sometimes he lies because you cannot accept other peoples’ problem especially those from poor country.
    So much thankful to Allah that at my age someone bachelor is still there to be my companion.

  • Gail

    November 10, 2014

    Mari2,
    OK I understand your situation alot better now.So it seems u r ok with your cowife being the legal wife because of your assets.Also yes I agree with u that is all the Pakistani woman do is sit around and backbite and I also have no intentions of getting involved in the nonsense.
    Mari knowing u have assets should your marriage go south and u living in USA I think u will be fine girl.Just don’t expect your cowife to embrace u with open arms simply because chances are her woman relatives esp her mom will tell her to get rid of u by causing problems is my thinking.Just keep her at arms length and u should be fine.
    I will say this I lived with my cowife on and off for 8 yrs.She acted nice to me to my face but also sooo weird like sitting in other rooms not coming near me to chat etc… Looking back now I could tell she wanted nothing to do with me and now I am perfectly fine with it as I want nothing to do with her either.

  • Gail

    November 10, 2014

    Ana,
    I just wanted to tell Fatima what I thought of the situation.Now OBVIOUSLY(lol) to even contemplate helping a cowife in general is hard on anyone.Now in saying that I just simply wanted to share my feelings with Fatima what I thought about her situation and give her info that she might not have or have even thought about regarding her situation.
    Now technically Fatima can never help her cowife/excowife whatever the woman is now.Fatima could only go find out information regarded her stepson and getting him to USA.I was trying to explain to Fatima to think before she acted to bring the stepchild to USA that at the age of 21 her stepchild would be able to fill immigration papers and bring his mother here understand? Fatima should understand this before she acts and is willing to handle that. I also agree it seems a very long time to wait but if Fatima loves her husband and wanted to give him this information as a gift from her to him and help him to immigrate his son and basically fix his marriage problems then it would be her choice and I think as crazy as it sounds it is a very noble thing to do in my opinion.
    Ana it would be choosing love over hate and positive energy over negative I feel.I also understand if Fatima wouldn’t dare want to do it out of concern the stepchild or cowife may disrupt her life.
    I don’t know for some reason I get this feeling Fatima is very kind heart type person and loves her husband.I don’t know I don’t have the answers in these situation I am just acting as the messenger.
    I will say this Once upon a time I wanted to bring my excowife here to USA but I no longer feel this way and would not help her even if I could because she doesn’t ask about her children.I find her to be very selfish.
    I might change my mind again in the future because I am very forgiving by nature but right now today no I have no intentions offering any info to my excowife to help her immigrate.
    I will say this in Fatima case it is her husbands fault alone this mess.He should have told his cousin he was already married.Obviously she has right to be more than angry with him.
    Fatima husband is from India I believe.
    I just wanted to give the information and let the chips fall where they may so to speak.

  • Mari2

    November 10, 2014

    @Gail,
    Thank you for your concern and advice. I’m in the US as is he. We have an Islamic only marriage which is my choice. No I don’t hold the legal marriage certificate, nor honestly do I want to. I am fine being married in the eyes of Allah only. For one thing, it protects my assets from him and his family if things should go south later. And, all I have (not that much) is in trust for the children of my first marriage anyway. Retirement, pension, life insurance etc. all goes to my kids and M knows this. He has nothing in the way of retirement etc. So asset-wise, I’m doing okay.

    Do I want/require sympathy from his family? No. Sympathy for what? I have zero expectations of his family. I didn’t marry him for his family anyway. In fact I will not mingle with his family members here in the US because I neither have to nor want to. I attend a masjid with middle eastern and african members and eschew the Paki only masjid where his family members desire to go. I make myself scarce whenever the local (here) women of his family want to have a “get together”. You Gail as well as me know all about what those gatherings entail…back biting close family members, back biting more removed cousins, and…wait…for..it..back biting people we don’t even know: but somebody’s grandmother’s cousin heard “it” from the servant’s 15th removed cousin who while laying in the sugar cane field alone? that the cousin of someone he doesn’t know called a man on her cell phone. That is how it goes in Pakistan among women who have nothing better to do than sit inside their homes idle. And I remove myself from that willingly.

    As far as immigration of cousin wife….YES!!!! Her family expects him to immigrate her here ASAP. What they don’t get is the process and the outcomes. Cousins mom thinks M will marry cousin, pack her up days later and leave to US immediately with her. And somewhere in MIL’s mind she thinks cousin girl will arrive in US and miraculously become a doctor/teacher with no ability to speak, read, or write English. In fact, MIL told M she didn’t want cousin/wife to have a menial “store job”…oh no…her daughter is only destined for teaching or being a doctor due in part to her substandard, run of the mill, free Pak education. But if M. wants to lead them on…he has to answer.

  • anabellah

    November 10, 2014

    Gail,

    I dunno; 21 years is a heck of a long time to wait to go some place. I, however, suppose some people do it.

    I could see if Fatima makes an effort to get the son here to help out the dad, but I cannot see her make an effort to bring the cousin. Nothing is Islam with the situation. It’s all culture. It’s not like a helping a sister-in-faith out of a bad situation type deal and the two of them have love in their hearts for each other because of Allah swt.

    Those people in Pakistan and the cousin would probably still view Fatima as an outcast, and want to be rid of her. It’s about blood ties for the Pakistani families. After all, the families planned the cousin marriage from when the cousins were youths. Fatima wouldn’t fit in the equation other than as a vehicle to get the cousin and son here.

    I doubt they’d view Fatima in any better light than they do now, if any of them know of her other than the brother-in-law and wife. Even when they do learn of her, they won’t respect her.

    If there was a way for Fatima to bring the cousin here, Fatima would only disrupt her own life irreparably, having to deal with cousin and that family. How would she explain them to people in the U.S who are not accepting of cousin marriages or polygamy?

    It’s a nightmare waiting to happen. I think if Fatima was to make the effort to get the cousin here and not just the child, not only would she not be the brightest tool in the shed, she wouldn’t be the sharpest tool in the shed either. I say leave girlfriend where she is!

    Those are my 2 cents about it.

  • Gail

    November 10, 2014

    Fatima,
    Sorry about my typos. I meant to say salt in the wound not womb and I meant to say u can take him with u to the attorney or go yourself without him to get the info.

  • Gail

    November 10, 2014

    Fatima,
    I am curious is your brother inlaw still in USA or did he go back home to India.I am thinking his stay here should just about be expired.I also think i remember u mentioning he got his own apartment some time back not sure though.
    I hope u did not mind me trying to explain to Mari2 about mine and your situations.Sometimes I just don’t know how to explain other than using examples.
    I have also been thinking about your situation some also and I really don’t know for certain if your husband cousin knows or not but my sincere guess is the answer is either yes or they pretty much figure he has someone in USA because he has not brought the cousin and the baby to USA.
    It don’t take a genius to figure out when a husband doesn’t come home for yrs at a time that he is acting like a priest if u get my drift.
    I am just guessing here with your situation but my sincere thinking is this with your situation and I may be wrong here but this is what I think has happened.
    He married u first as we know then mommy dearest told him it was time to marry(which he already knew from the time he was a child that would happen being culture and all).He obeys his mother as every Pakistani/India son does and marries the cousin because after all this was not a surprise coming from an arranged marriage culture.
    He marries the the cousin and after awhile they start putting pressure on him to sponsor his wife to come to USA and correct me if I am wrong here on this but I swear I think u mentioned him going to see an attorney.I believe it was that time that he was informed that 1.Polygamy is not permitted in USA and 2.He married his cousin before obtaining a divorce from u.3.I am sure the attorney told him that he can not sponsor his cousin because he is married to u and even if he divorced u now after he already married the cousin he still could not sponsor her because he has to show proof divorce certificates which is not a problem if he divorced u but what is a PROBLEM is that he also has to tell the marriage dates and hand in his marriage certificate to his cousin which would clearly show at the time he married his cousin he also was married to you.
    Soooo not being very smart or as I like to think instead G.D/Allah was protecting you he had to tell his cousin and her family something but what could he say.
    One of two things happened in my opinion 1.either he fessed up and told her the truth that he could never bring her to USA and she left him or 2.He did not tell her and she got angry because he is not bringing her here to USA and left him thinking she could play hardball with him thinking given enough time he would come around and file her case but the reality is as he knows he can’t file her case and he can never bring her here to USA(as far as I am aware.
    Here is the real kicker lets say cousin and her family knows about you and they have flat told him to divorce you and he agreed in India or didn’t agree whichever knowing it would make zero difference if he divorced u or not because either way he can’t bring her.
    It would stand to reason this is why they r not letting him see his son and angry with him.
    I will also tell u this in Pakistan and more than likely in India also that if they r divorced which something is telling me it is unlikely simply because one he is paying her money for the child which seems strange to me if they r fighting it is not USA there that they act like Americans.When families fight they can kill each other they r not going to send money to support squat.
    Fatima my own sister inlaw is living back at home still married but separated from my excowife brother and in the last 3 yrs do u know how much money he has sent to his wife and child for their upkeep? ZERO not a plug nickle because the two families are Pi$$ed at each other.Do u know what my excowife told me about my sister inlaw?That it was my sister inlaws wish to go back him meaning screw her they were not helping her or the child.Even her child has a heart condition.Now I am not India/Pakistani expert but I am just telling u like I have seen it played out.These family feuds are brutal.
    Fatima when u try to talk to your husband about it and he gets in a mood my guess is u r reminding him without meaning to that he is not the brightest tool in the shed and esp… YOU asking him is like rubbing salt in the womb.
    For some reason I could not for the longest time get my mind of your situation and how your husband only has one biological child a SON and never sees him.The pieces just didn’t add up but now they do to me.
    I hope u don’t mind me sharing my complete thoughts about your situation.
    Unless he plans on retiring back to India I would say u have nothing to worry about as far as divorce from his side because even if he did divorce u it’s not going to help him with his cousin.
    Fatima one way u might could help the situation if u wanted was to speak to an attorney with out without him and explain the exact situation and find out given that this is a polygamous marriage situation how he can bring his son to USA.If u can get the child here then the child can file for his mother when he reaches age 21 and bring her to USA to live.Yes it is a very long time but it would be hope for his cousin and maybe even u could be instrumental in repairing the damage that has been done.It is just something to think about.
    I hope I explained myself well enough for u to understand.

  • Gail

    November 10, 2014

    Mari2,
    One more thing Don’t believe that he is so clueless and doesn’t know what is going on.He knows well everything believe me.He knows very well if his wife and her family are expecting her to immigrate or not and he knows well what he will also do.
    Yes he will try to drag the lie out as long as he can because well thats what they do because they know it is going to be a family feud when the truth comes out.
    Also I am going to be honest don’t expect that u will get any sympathy from his family or your cowife in the future.Pakistani woman on average r very against Polygamy.

  • Gail

    November 10, 2014

    Mari2,
    I hear u girl.The unknown is what tends to drive people crazy.Listen I forgot where u r from again and I can’t remember if I asked u if u r the wife with the marriage certificate or if u r in a country that accepts Polygamy.I am sorry I just can’t remember.I did ask someone and they said that yes Polygamy was legal in their country.
    I am only asking because if Polygamy is not legal in your country and u have a marriage certificate then she can’t come unless he divorces u.
    Mari the truth is to be frank the organization and being in control of your life is changing.U will have to just worry about yourself and organize your life and u figure out what u will accept and not accept yourself instead of looking at him since he doesn’t obviously have any answers.
    What I mean is do u want your cowife living with u in the same home if yes then ok and if no then ok u have made your mind up.U figure out yourself what u will and won’t accept then u will be fine I think.
    I will say this if your cowife doesn’t know about u and your husband family is aware of u then u better believe that is not good because all Sh!T is going to hit the fan and if his mother knows about u then u better know something fishy is going on here and way more than meets the eye.
    Look Mari u know if your mother inlaw knows about u and either way if she knows or not problems are bound to occur from this mess.
    Let me ask u what do u think will happen if and when your cowife and her family do find out?Do u think she and her family will start screaming?
    Does your mother inlaw know about u since she is fixing her niece with her son?If she does know about u then why do u think she would not tell her own sister or sister inlaw(lie to the family about u)?If she doesn’t know about u and when she comes to find out down the road do u think she will demand her son to divorce you?
    My point in asking u all these questions is to get u thinking logically and move past the wedding and focusing on your cowife and figure out what u r going to do if his mother and wife and her family come to know about u and they flat tell him to divorce u.
    In my situation my husband stood up for me and flat let his cousin/first wife go but my situation is very unique and I don’t really think that happens so much.
    Also it has happened in Fatima case here on the blog as well but in her case as beautiful as fatima is I am not so certain that it has to do with her as much as her husband screwed himself because he was married to Fatima with a legal marriage certificate before he married his cousin/India wife and here in USA Polygamy is not legal.So he shot himself in the foot.Now do I know this 100% no I sure don’t it is just my idea.
    Also in my case had my husband divorced me or I divorced him I am not going to lie I would have reported his conduct to Immigration and made D@mn sure he would never bring her to USA.I was not having someone get a free ride on my account.I am not that nice.
    I hope u understand I am just saying leave him alone since he is not giving u any information and start thinking for yourself so u don’t get into a pickle.

  • Aisha

    November 9, 2014

    Mari2
    I have to say u are in the same situation as I am,my hubby also doesn’t know anything,his ,om is the 1 deciding everything.he also doesn’t know who he is marrying and when are they getting married and to tell u the truth it all makes veryy worried about my future.I mean is this going to play out,well we just wait and see

  • Mari2

    November 9, 2014

    @Gail. No wife #1 whom he divorced was not from there, but his means to get here. I understand the reasons for divorce though, she is really unstable and stuff. She was the one who chose to leave though. It was complicated for them, and yes his family did have much blame in that. But then she is a bit mad (as in crazy).

    I think my general frustration with the whole shebang is that M. just lacks foresight in this thing. Some know about me. But I’m pretty sure cousin wife and family do not. This is M.’s thinking: I’m going to marry the cousin my mom chose. Period. Nothing beyond this! And me, who’s a little more future focused, is like “AND THEN….?” But there is no “then” with him. He’s so busy trying to stall this thing, that he’s not prepping himself for what comes next. Does she stay there or come here? He doesn’t know. Does she get pregnant right away and stop her schooling or not? He doesn’t know. If she comes here, will he be able to afford to house her in a separate place? He doesn’t know. Will any kids be born here or there? He doesn’t know. Will she stay with her parents or in his home? He doesn’t know. He doesn’t even know what the wedding plans are because his mom is deciding all that. He doesn’t even know the person he is marrying. They don’t talk. He just listens to demands of her mother about this, that and the other and keeps delaying things with money excuses (which are legit btw).

    I have known about the impending marriage which is great, but all that is to come after? I don’t know because he doesn’t know either. If I knew something, maybe the anxiety in my highly organized self would lessen a bit. Hell, there’s not even a definite date for the wedding! Just a “maybe in February”. How does one not know when? How does that work? ARGH!

  • Ina

    November 8, 2014

    Wow Mari2, that’s a very strange dream. It’s like a Tim Burton film. I would not worry too much about how you felt in the dream because you are trying your best to accept the situation in your conscious state. It seems to me the man leading you out of the building is the devil who is just trying to make you feel good about seeing something bad happening.

    I can see how frustrating the cultural way of doings can be and it seems you cannot reason with their way of thinking, no matter how illogical they are. Your husband thinks he is being a good son by doing whatever his mother says. Your husband doesn’t want to create a scene by disagreeing with his mother. Men often opt for the easy way out. I think the fact that not many of his family know about you whilst he’s having this big traditional wedding is a bigger issue than you’d want to admit. I know if it was me, I would feel very aggrieved about this.

  • Gail

    November 7, 2014

    Mari2,
    I have a question for u. Was his first wife Pakistani or not? I am thinking she was not but not entirely certain.For some reason I get this feeling his marriage to cousin was planned for years and this is the reason his family is not aware of u.Had they been aware of u then cousin/wife family would have thrown 9 kinds of hell is my thinking.
    Also with this being his third marriage I am wondering do u secretly feel like your husband has issues?What I mean is this will be his third marriage and I assume divorced happened with the first wife.Yes it is acceptable in Islam but still it is a hard pill to swallow knowing his MOTHER and family rule over him and this cousin marriage I doubt it is what he really wants although he might but to my knowledge they rarely want the family/cousin marriage or they would be faithful to their family and wait on the cousin marriage which they know mommy dearest at some point will arrange for them in the future.It is mentally sick and disgusting to be frank in my opinion when a grown man can not break free from his parents/Can’t cut the apron strings as we say in USA so I totally understand and sympathize with u on that topic.
    Mari2 it might be time now for u to come out of the shadows and let him know that you want him to tell his family about u.I don’t know how u feel about that or even if u told him to tell his family he would flat tell u no or make some excuse about his cousin/wife.If u pushed it chances he would just stress out on u if his family don’t know and if u pushed him on the topic there is a real chance he might divorce u.I am just being honest.My husband was already married to his cousin so it was reverse in my situation than yours.Everyone knew the truth but ME understand and when the truth came out I was livid and sick and disgusted and wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater to be frank.
    I can’t tell u what to do only u know what u will accept and will not accept but it seems to me logically speaking u r not satisfied with being in the shadows anymore and this is a problem that will eventually have to be solved I think.
    Mari2 Does his cousin/wife know about u? If she doesn’t does it bother u that she is getting blind sided meaning she is marrying a man that has the potential to destroy her life and take her virginity in a country where virginity is held at such a high price that it will ruin her life when she comes to know the truth and will be labeled as damaged goods after the fact if she did divorce after finding out the truth and could not accept the situation?
    This is what I LOATH/HATEEE with men/Pakistani men in particular.
    They live their entire lives knowing that their parents will marry them off eventually but instead of waiting on their parents to marry them they run overseas and take a foreign wife all the while knowing that they will also marry a cousin or parents choice in Pakistan with no regard or feelings towards their foreign wife or their cousin/Pakistani wife.It is VILE and disgusting and their are no words to comfort the foreign wife or Pakistani/cousin wife when they figure out this man/husband/monster has duped them.It really stings when u figure out your husband had no regard for your feelings and did not care if he would make u mental in the future with the truth or destroy your life with his lies.
    Could this be why u had no emotion or unwillingly wanted to help him in your dream because in reality u know he has not been forth coming to his family about his life?
    I don’t know much about your personal situation or how much your inlaws or cowife know about u if anything at all but since u mentioned your the hidden wife it would make logical sense if u did feel this way and maybe are trying to connect the DOTS through your dream.
    I hope I have said something that might help u with your dream.

    None of this is your fault Mari but how much u r willing to take and how far u r willing to go if he has not been completely honest will be on you ultimately I suppose.

  • coco

    November 1, 2014

    Mari2
    I’ve been reading your bits and pieces you’ve been writing, although you must be crazy agitated I found the Pakistani drama ridiculously funny who knew clothes can have such power lol okay I think the one thing that you need to instil in your head is that Pakistanis are already hard to “get” but guessing from you mentioning that your husband asked your MIL in pushto about groceries that he’s pathan or afghani, sorry but you got stuck with the most hard to “get” sect lol I know cuz my intended is pathan and sometimes I just have to conclude to myself that they dance to the beat of their own drum lol pathans are called akhrots which means walnuts cuz they are so hard headed and often logic isn’t a language they understand as they react based on emotions. The grocery drama must be getting under your skin but I don’t think there is anything that can be done except you make a system that involves you only lol I reckon all this wouldn’t bother you but the impending wedding doesn’t help. I think it’s much more difficult when your husband “chooses” to wed the future co but in your case it’s a typical pathan honor/tribal/forced marriage scenario not a decision formed commonly on lust so Alhumdullilah it could have been worse yeah? Just try to stay calm sister may Allah keep you patient! Ameen :)

  • coco

    November 1, 2014

    Gail
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA omg yes Rasputia DIDN’T take that well!! I loved all parts in the movie each time you watch it there’s something funnier to laugh about. I love Mr. Wong character he had ridiculously funny presence and one of my favourite part for some reason is when Norbit is locked downstairs and he screams in a whisper “THISSSSSS IS A MADDDDDD HOUSEEEEEE MADDDDD HOUSEEEEEE” I’m giggling away here babe! Now on a serious note Gail in all honesty I didn’t say that to make you out to be the goose who lays golden eggs only, see you were the foreign wife they treated you better because they are infatuated by foreigners which you very much are I reckon they did like you as I remember if I’m not wrong they wouldn’t side with your ex-co against you. I truly think it was genuine rather than fake and your MIL praying for you when she heard of your health scare was probably from the heart. This might help you a bit knowing that for a Pakistani mother to accept another woman linked to their son whether foreign or a cousin wife is just hard they feel as though they’re losing the son so can’t share and she probably felt jealousy from your husband having your back yes it’s odd but you know there’s a MIL vs. DIL rivalry! Just please don’t cut yourself short I’m sure they were fond of you and respected you cuz however you may be I believe you were “safe” cuz you played straight to the face no games or secret hidden agendas. You must have been regarded and treated as part of the family but it’s hard for you to find the genuineness as a whole lot of drama happened in Pakistan so you lost faith in everyone. Yes you are a huge bonus cuz you had the ability to lay golden visa eggs but you’re sooooooo much more! To answer your question about me and fiancé, we are tied up for a few months him with his cricket and I’m busy working on a collection then have a trip to the U.S in December for a few months, he will come meet my mom before leaving for abroad and then we shall plan a close date after that if Allah wills of course inshAllah. :)