Lucrul în echipă este poligamia spune Africa de Sud Ndela Ntshangase
de Ann on Feb.09, 2010, în timpul poligamia în mass-media
Cultural Expert and Lecturer Ndela Ntshangase, at the University of Kula-Zulu Natal in South Africa, speaks about polygamy. Ntshangase says polygamy is selfLESSness in practice.
Listen to Audio: Polygamy is Teamwork . See photo of Jacob Zuma (President of South Africa) and his wives.
Audio provided by ”Times Live Media”- 2/5/10
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Ca Alaikum Salaamu!
Bine aţi venit la Poligamia 411! Casa noastră este pentru musulmani şi non-musulmani. Este pentru toata lumea care vrea să vorbească despre poligamie, sau cineva care este într-o căsătorie poligamă sau se intenţionează să intre un. Ne place având companie. Fă-te comod şi să se alăture în discuţie de către lăsând un comentariu. Aşteptăm cu nerăbdare să te văd aici, din nou în curând şi de multe ori.
călători 4 mai puţin!
February 9th, 2010 on 9:42 PM
What I found to be interesting in the audio is that Lecturer Ndela Ntshangase called on wives to encourage their husbands to spend time with wives whom the husbands were neglecting. I’m wondering how reasonable it is for a woman to do that. I know there are some women that would conjecture and say they’d do it, if in the situation; cu toate acestea, I think a woman needs to live polygamy to know what she’d do in this particular situation.
I’ve had occasions when Alex came to me when he wasn’t due here, and spent the night when Carolinah wasn’t aware he had come back early from a business trip. Perhaps he did the same to me. Nu ştiu. I do know that based on all the unfairness that many women in polygynous marriages complain about, there are quite a few women that don’t turn their husbands away when they prefer to be with them. How reasonable do you think it is for women to send their husbands off and packing to their other wives?
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 10th, 2010 on 3:44 AM
Me? I don’t think it’s reasonable for any woman to share her husband under any circumstances. Then again, I have very high standards about how I am to be treated and the first and most important aspect to a relationship, in my mind, is respect. It simply isn’t respectful for one partner to have another “love interest” and the other partner to be expected to remain faithful. I think the whole situation is demeaning to you, Home, and I don’t for a moment believe any loving deity would subject you to it, or require you to tolerate it. Then again, I’m an agnostic so I’m rather skeptical that there is any deity, loving or otherwise.
Just wondering; if you were a parent, would you expect your daughter to put up with the situation you are currently in? Would you really believe yourself to be a loving parent if you insisted that she not only share her husband, but that she somehow be happy about it? And even thank you for putting her in that position?
Please don’t think I’m attacking you or anything. It’s just — bine, I’m a Mom. If anyone treated either of my children (I have one of each) the way Alex has treated you, I’d be quite furious. În fapt,, my daughter has had two men in her lives who DID treat her very poorly, and you better bet I got right up in their faces about it. (One of them hates me to this day, but that’s his problem not mine. I don’t hate him but as a Mom you’d better believe I’ll do anything in my power to stick up for my babies. Even when they aren’t babies anymore.) So the point I’m kind of making is this; If your God is a loving father (which I’m kind of assuming Allah is supposed to be) then why would he make you miserable?
February 10th, 2010 on 3:46 AM
Home, I hope my prior post wasn’t too much of a “religioase” debate. I’m not trying to talk about religion as much as self respect. So please forgive me if I’ve gone over a line and into proscribed areas. I’m not trying to be disrespectful of your blog boundries.
February 10th, 2010 on 4:48 AM
Rebeckah,
I don’t think you are attacking me or anything of the sought. We are here to share our thoughts and feelings, so it’s OK. I don’t think you’re being disrespectful in any way. Regarding what you said: “Just wondering; if you were a parent, would you expect your daughter to put up with the situation you are currently in? Would you really believe yourself to be a loving parent if you insisted that she not only share her husband, but that she somehow be happy about it? And even thank you for putting her in that position?” As you know, I have no children, so I can only speculate. Therefore, toată lumea, please take what I say, in answer to the question, for what it is worth. If I had daughters, I would teach them the Truth from the onset; there is no he and she who live together happily ever after. I would teach them about polygamy, that polygamy is good, that there is a lot of good in polygamy and that polygamy may happen to them one day, if it’s God’s will. I would tell them to thank God for polygamy… That would be my truth to them.
You said: “If your God is a loving father (which I’m kind of assuming Allah is supposed to be) then why would he make you miserable?” I don’t think God is making me miserable. I think I am making myself miserable because of my selfishness and greed, because of my unwillingness to share, because of my denial of the Truth, the part of me that does not want to accept polygamy wholeheartedly and with enthusiasm. That’s what making me miserable, not being able to willfully submit my will to the will of Allah.
Man will suffer on this earth; it’s inevitable. The Prophets suffered. They experienced pain and sorrow. They are our examples. Jonah was swallowed up by the whale. Joseph was thrown in the well. Job suffered tremendously. Jacob suffered silent sorrow. There are so many examples from times of old. Those men were all tested, as we shall be tested, precum şi. Allah asks Muslims, do we think we will go throughout life without being tested like those who came before us? I’m praying that one day very soon Allah will free me from my need to satisfy my own selfish desires. I pray that He will allow me to put my selfishness to bay, and hearken to Him before it is too late.
Referencing the religious debate, it’s OK. I don’t think you’ve taken the discussion too far off base. I’m trying to be somewhat less rigid and allow for discussions to get a bit side track every now and again, particularly for our regular readers and friends. I may try to nip certain discussions in the bud, if I think a newcomer has arrived simply to debate and bring no good to the forum.
Rebeckah, I think it’s the reasonable, right thing to do to protect your daughter. Women are being abused in magnitude, globally. I just read an article in which was indicated that a girl/woman is sexually assaulted every 23 seconds in South Africa. If I can locate the article again, Voi post it. It was most sad.
Thank you for the questions, Rebeckah, and for your input. I hope I answered your questions sufficiently. I ask all to join in our discussions. Toate sunt binevenite.
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 10th, 2010 on 12:47 PM
Hi Ana,
Regarding your advice to your possible daughter: Prophet Muhammad stood for his daughter’s right on a hint that Imam Ali may take another wife. Ali refrained from taking any other wife in the life of Fatima. Uthman didn’t practice polygyny while being married to prophet’s daughters possibly not to upset prophet Muhammad.
Why don’t you think that following Sunnah and standing for your rights may be a good idea. Polygyny is only allowed, not something to cherish and prophet Muhammad showed this through his behavior.
Reva
February 10th, 2010 on 2:05 PM
Home, thank you for your response to me. I appreciate your willingness to expand your boundries somewhat, as it’s rather difficult to discuss polygyny which is religiously mandated or approved without the occasional reference to religion itself.
May I ask why you say “polygamy is good”? I have been researching it a lot and I’ve yet to see any “bine” in it. It seems to bring misery, pain, family and personal dysfunction, and pretty much a lot of evil. Of course what I should really say is “poligamia” doesn’t seem to have any real good to it. “Poligamie” which would involve multiple partners for all, MIGHT possibly be good in some way, although I tend to think it’s just a big headache and heartache waiting for all involved, but polygyny is inherently inequal and unjust for women. I leads to an inbalance of personal power within a relationship which hurts women and children (şi, in my opinion, the “soul” of the man). So I really see no good in it. Would you be willing to show me the good?
Mulţumiri.
February 10th, 2010 on 3:08 PM
Hi Reva,
Allah decides who will engage in polygamy. I agree with you that although Allah has made it a right for men to engage in polygamy, not all men will exercise that right. Since Allah has decided for my husband to engage in polygamy, a God given right, why should I try to prevent him from doing so? Why should I try to interfere with Allah’s decision? Many may say, well look at all the hardship and misery you’re (Eu sunt) going through. I would have to say yes. This is what I’m experiencing while trying to accept Allah’s decision as best I can. Polygamy is not easy for women to accept and live with.
You asked, “Why don’t you think that following Sunnah and standing for your rights may be a good idea. Polygyny is only allowed, not something to cherish and prophet Muhammad showed this through his behavior.” My answer to your question is I know from Quran that Prophet Muhammad (Saw) angajate în poligamie, which is fact. I know he said he would divorce his wives if they desired the life of this world opposed to the Hereafter, and of course there are other scenarios. Nowhere have I ever read in Quran that a woman opposed her husband’s practice of polygamy and the husband submitted to his wife’s desires. The Prophet Muhammad is our example and according to Aisha, he was the walking Quran-that’s the Sunnah.
Poligamie, of course is not for everyone, but if a man wants to practice it and Allah allows him to, who are we women to oppose Allah’s decision? Any reason that we’d come up with would be an indication of unbelief.
Reva, I appreciate you responding and thank you sharing your thoughts and knowledge about the matter. We like hearing from you. Please comment again and often.
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 10th, 2010 on 4:12 PM
Hi Rebeckah,
You asked me about the good in polygamy. God created polygamy in its purist form. Polygamy was created for “Believers.” Man as in mankind, disbelievers, has defaced the true nature of polygamy in pursuit of their own desires.
I think in order for you to see the good in polygamy you would have to find two Believers that are engaged in it. I think then you would see all the good there is in it.
You may say with all the suffering, misery and pain etc. that many are experiencing with polygamy, why support it. My response would be, people reject the Quran; am I to reject the Quran, precum şi? It is not for me to reject polygamy for any reason. My position is to let my husband do what Allah has decreed and let him answer to Allah for it, as all of us will answer for what we do.
I hope my response has helped shed some light on my position, regarding the good in polygamy. Thanks for your questions
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 10th, 2010 on 5:16 PM
A spus: ‘Poligamie, of course is not for everyone, but if a man wants to practice it and Allah allows him to, who are we women to oppose Allah’s decision? Any reason that we’d come up with would be an indication of unbelief.’
What if the man vows to his first wife never to take a second? Is that not a valid reason to oppose it? If God holds the woman accountable to her marriage vows when polygamy is practiced, would he not also hold the man accountable to his vows when monogamy is agreed upon?
February 10th, 2010 on 6:24 PM
Prophet Muhammad practiced polygamy but he didn’t like it for his own daughter. Muslims can choose any of these two practices and they can justify their action by either of these facts.
Btw, did you imply that because Prophet Muhammad forbidding Ali to remarry is not mentioned in Quran that is why it is not credible?
There are many things in Islam which seem to be contradicting but actually they are not. Life is too complicated to have a single answer to every situation. We believe that Islam is a universal religion because its flexible and easy for humans. The way you are describing this is pretty rigid. It sounds like that when your husband wants to remarry you are pretty much done. You are equating husband’s will to God’s will. Isn’t it shirk?
Having said that I am not saying that you won’t get reward for the suffering you think is from God. God judges everybody according to the person’s abilities and understandings. People who torture themselves to attain higher level of spirituality will also get their share from the mercy of God because that was the only thing they knew.
Thanks for your nice comments.
Reva
February 10th, 2010 on 8:29 PM
Allah determined polygamy is permissible for men, and has informed them in the Quran how and when it should be done. I can’t recall ever reading anywhere in Quran that Allah tells women when they can approve or disapprove of polygamy for their husbands. For a woman to tell her husband when and if he could engage in polygamy is shirk. She’s setting herself up as a partner to Allah when she dictates to her husband what he can and can not do. Allah says it OK for a man to engage in polygamy and the woman contradicts Allah by telling him that he can’t.
Man is accountable to Allah for how, when and if he engage in polygamy. It’s questionable whether a man should ever promise a wife or potential wife that he will not engage in polygamy, as he does not have control over his future. He does not know what he will or will not do, nor does he know how he will feel in the future. We are supposed to be servants of Allah, not servants of each other.
A woman who opposes Allah and doesn’t like that Allah has given man a right to engage in polygamy would seek out and find any reason to tell her husband that he can’t do what Allah says he can. It’s not for woman to determine what her husband does regarding polygamy. He should consult with her and if she doesn’t like it she could decline to marry him or divorce him.
A woman should do some serious soul searching, and ask herself why she is so opposed to polygamy and hate so much what Allah has made permissible. She could learn a lot about herself, if she does. What she probably will discover is that she is jealous, selfish and don’t want to share.
I know Quran is the only authentic, non-adulterated book that has not been tampered with.
Poligamie 411 appreciates all comments and thanks all for sharing.
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 10th, 2010 on 8:51 PM
Home, I think I agree with what you’re saying about a woman not deciding whether or not a man can live the way he chooses to. Totuşi, I believe the same should be true for the woman. (And I kind of get the impression you feel the same.) Right now you are allowing polygyny in your life, even though it was in no way your choice, for your own reasons. Should you decide you no longer wish to deal with it, you have a right (if I’m understanding what I’ve read so far) to choose to leave the situation.
One of the things you wrote, cu toate acestea, seemed to indicate that it would be counted against you as a lack of faith if you did leave,deşi. Is that true?
I have a very difficult time understanding why anyone would give up joy and self fulfillment right now, in this life, for a nebulous promise of rewards after death. I am a very concrete thinker. I KNOW I exist right now. I have no idea if any part of me will exist after my death. All the available data I have so far says death is the end of me. That being said, I can’t understand subsuming my own wants, needs and desires for a man who broke his word to me. (Granted, I have really big issues with people being completely honest with me.)
Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying you should engage in a lifestyle of debauchery or anything like that. I have morals and ethics and believe in have high standards for one’s own life. But it feels to me like staying with a man who broke a promise that has now caused you so much pain is simply denying your own value as a person. You are worth respect, honor, and above all, honesty. Don’t settle for less.
And by that, I’m not saying “Leave him! Leave him!” I’m just saying that you need to protect and care for yourself. If Allah loves you, then He is surely saying the same. Be with someone you can trust to care for you and sacrifice for you too. Allow your own needs and feelings to be at least as important as your partner’s. That sort of thing.
Hmmm, I think I’ll leave it at that. Please understand that I’m not disrespecting your beliefs or the fact that you hold them. I simply don’t understand them. Part of it, I suspect, is the fact that I have Asperger’s and it makes me somewhat more literal than the average person. Or, maybe I’m just a fundamentally selfish person. Anyone considering my advice might want to be aware that I’ve been single for almost 30 ani. I’m happy that way, but not everyone is, so take any advice with a bit of though.
February 10th, 2010 on 10:36 PM
This blog deals with real time life experiences. We can’t focus on those polygamous relationships with allegations of what may have happened over 1500 years ago. Everyone should keep the content based on real life experiences, and refer only to people that Allah has made mention of in the Quran, such as Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Job, and the Prophet Muhammad, de exemplu. We should rely on a credible foundation to avoid conjecture and lies.
I will attempt to moderate comments while Ana is away on vacation. Insha Allah, my schedule will permit. Please feel free to communicate with me and I will make every effort to respond.
Ali
February 16th, 2010 on 12:16 PM
Hi Ana,
Whatever may be your reasons to live polygyny, you have all the rights to remain so and keep complaining about it too. Having said that, you should be very careful while justifying your situation by presenting half knowledge of Islam. Every religious person should try to bring about their life according to the doctrine instead of trying to bring about the doctrine around their life situation. Isn’t it funny that just because Alex promised Carolinah that he would never divorce her, you had to prove that promise is against Islam too. Oricum, I have noticed that you try to give your (especially nonmuslim) readers an impression that polygyny is mandated in Islam so you have no choice. You very conveniently ignore to acknowledge the very important aspects of polygyny mentioned in Quran. I yet have to see you mentioning to your readers that:
-It is not mentioned in Quran that polygyny is the optimal/best/chosen way of life.
-Quran is the only religious book which puts a limit on the number of wives
-Quran suggests having only one wife citing human inability of maintaining justice between them.
Just because Quran does not prohibit, rather cite the acceptance of Polygyny it does not mean that it “mandates” it. Quran also mentions slavery and prophets having slaves. Would you imply that having slave is the way of the chosen ones? Not wanting to have slaves in one’s personal life would also mean that they put themselves above God’s decree?
A woman who wants to cling to her husband to make his and his wife’s life miserable would find any reason to justify her actions. But maligning Islam by propagating misinformation about such a sensitive issue is criminal. I guess all of us need to do some soul searching as to why we are justifying our personal desires or shortcomings by twisting and turning the words of Allah. Probably what we will find is that we are greedy and selfish but need someone else to blame, if even it has to be Allah.
Isn’t it odd that your blog name is “Poligamia in Islam” but you don’t have a single Quranic verse about polygyny at your home page. I would really appreciate if you copy all the verses from Quran (which are not many) related to polygyny on your blog. So that your readers have firsthand knowledge as to what Islam says about polygyny and how much of your hurt is your religion’s fault.
PS: I am waiting for your answer to Rebeckah’s question: “One of the things you wrote, cu toate acestea, seemed to indicate that it would be counted against you as a lack of faith if you did leave,deşi. Is that true?”
PPS: I am not against polygamy if done for right reasons. From your blog it seems like Alex is doing it for the best possible reasons: i.e financially and emotionally providing for a middle aged and (as you have made sure that we know) not-so-attractive woman.
February 16th, 2010 on 1:25 PM
Hi Reva,
What I’d suggest is that you create your own blog and present all the knowledge in the world that you can find on Islam and include all the Quranic verses from Quran related to polygamy. Please share your wealth of knowledge about Islam with us all.
I have explained to people on this blog that there is a lot of good in polygamy for me and I am sharing my experiences with everyone. I have no reason to divorce Alex other than my extreme difficulty in accepting and embracing polygamy. That for me is no reason for divorce.
I can only say I’m sorry you’re disappointed in the blog. I can’t please everyone, nor am I here to do that.
I look forward to visiting your new blog.
Mulţumesc!
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
Home
February 16th, 2010 on 4:28 PM
Hi Rebeckah,
I didn’t forget about you. I know you knew that
You said: “Home, I think I agree with what you’re saying about a woman not deciding whether or not a man can live the way he chooses to. Totuşi, I believe the same should be true for the woman. (And I kind of get the impression you feel the same.) Right now you are allowing polygyny in your life, even though it was in no way your choice, for your own reasons. Should you decide you no longer wish to deal with it, you have a right (if I’m understanding what I’ve read so far) to choose to leave the situation.” Rebeckah, I say you are correct in your understanding of what you read.
Secondly you said: “One of the things you wrote, cu toate acestea, seemed to indicate that it would be counted against you as a lack of faith if you did leave, deşi. Is that true?” My answer is YES; it is true. Allah says polygamy is PERMISSIBLE, not mandatory, desigur, but PERMISSIBLE for a man. My husband Alex became polygamous, whether against my will or not, which was his right. He acted on a RIGHT GIVEN TO HIM BY ALLAH. Alex is not perfect, as no human being is, but he provides for me; he takes good care of me; he’s kind, considerate, blând, and loving 95% of the time (despite how he engaged in polygamy without mutual consultation and consent etc). I’d like him to have more of an interested in Islam, which I see a huge improvement in him that seems sincere. I have no major complaints about Alex other than his practice of polygamy, which is now a part of my life. Alex doesn’t physically, emotionally or psychologically abuse me. He hasn’t brought another woman into our home and said I have to live with her, or anything of that nature. He hasn’t hurt me. Any hurt I’ve experienced is due to my refusal to accept polygamy willfully and with enthusiasm. What would be my reason to divorce Alex?
For me to divorce Alex simply because he has done something that Allah says is OK for him to do is utter disbelief. Allah says it is OK for a man to engage in polygamy. Who am I to contradict Allah and say it is not OK?
Why am I unhappy with polygamy?
• I’m unhappy with polygamy because it is not to my liking.
• I don’t want to share Alex’s love and affection with another woman.
• I don’t like Alex having sex with another woman. I really don’t want him to have sex with another woman and come back to have it with me.
• I don’t like Alex engaging in polygamy because I’m jealous of the love and affection he is sharing with another woman.
• I don’t like Alex engaging in polygamy, as it goes against everything about a marriage, or relationship that I have ever known and was ever taught.
• I don’t like Alex engaging in polygamy because it makes me feel not good about myself, as I feel I’m lacking in some way.
• I don’t want Alex to engage in polygamy for all of those reasons and I could probably sight many more. I just don’t have the time to do it right now and I think you’ve already gotten the picture.
• Bottom line is I don’t want Alex engaged in polygamy because of nothing other than me, my based desires, my greed, my selfishness, me, me, mine.
Again I must say nowhere does Allah say a woman has any right to deprive her husband of his right to engage in polygamy. She has no right to deny him that right. She only has the right not to marry him or divorce him, if she can’t accept Allah’s decision for her husband to engage in polygamy.
The good in trying to accept polygamy is that Allah has revealed all the evil and bad that exists in me. Now He (Allah) has given me the opportunity to recognize my many faults, and try to change my heart before it’s too late, which I hope and pray I can do.
Thirdly you said: “But it feels to me like staying with a man who broke a promise that has now caused you so much pain is simply denying your own value as a person.” My answer is that Alex was in no position to make a promise to me, as no one can predict the future. How would he know whether or not he’d want to engage in polygamy in the future? Why should I hold Alex to that promise? Why should I prevent him from being with another woman if that is what he wants to do and Allah says it OK? Da. It’s not easy for me and I’m having a difficult time accepting polygamy, but it’s getting much easier.
You continued to say: “You are worth respect, honor, and above all, honesty. Don’t settle for less.” In Islam the most honored in the eyesight of Allah is the most Righteous. Allah would raise us to a rank of prestige and honor, if we serve Him and our living, dying, prayers and sacrifice are all for Him.
Rebeckah, I understand you are not disrespecting my beliefs in anyway. I’m happy you’re here, and are commenting for all of us to share and perhaps learn from one another. It’s nice and refreshing that you’ve inquired about things you’d like to know about
I’m happy that you are happy being single
There are many single people enjoying their lives, and are very happy; I can only surmise. As I just said to Zainab, relationships are a lot of work, and can be very disappointing at times.
Where’s the guarantee that if Alex and I divorce, my life would be much better. All relationships come with a cost. I know what my costs are in my marriage with Alex.
Thank you for the questions, Rebeckah, and for sharing
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 16th, 2010 on 9:06 PM
I think what non-Muslims should know is that for Muslims striving to be Believers in Islam less emphasis is placed on the life of this world, opposed to attempting to gain entry to Paradise. For Muslims striving to be Believers, this life is for us to obey, serve, and worship Allah and to do good deeds that will help us enter Paradise. It may seem that Muslims suffer much in this world, but it could be an expiation of sins, a purification process, as we cannot enter Paradise with inpure hearts.
A Muslim striving to be a Believer would make every effort to accept the WHOLE of Quran, and not select only the parts he/she likes and reject the other. No Muslim striving to be a Believer wants to be haughty and arrogant like Iblis (Satan). Iblis refused to bow down to Adam as commanded by Allah. There are many Muslims that refuse to accept polygamy, and find every excuse to reject it.
No woman should be forced to accept polygamy, as there is no compulsion in Islam. În acelaşi timp,, no man should be denied the right to engage in polygamy either. Allah tells man in Quran how and when he should engage in polygamy and man will have to answer to Allah, as to the way he does it etc.
I hope the explanation above is somewhat helpful.
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 17th, 2010 on 12:42 AM
Home, thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions so completely and thoughtfully.
I very much hope you realize that I am not advocating or advising you to leave or divorce Alex. I ask why you haven’t because I am trying to understand your reasoning — where you are coming from. I believe that only YOU can decide what is best for you and how you wish to live your life. So I hope I haven’t given the wrong impression there. Da, I would certainly have divorced Alex in your situation — but it would have been more because of the broken promise than polygyny itself. Trust is a super big issue for me and I couldn’t trust someone who broke such an important promise to me. I have reasons going back into my childhood for these issues so I don’t expect my insecurity to be present in every woman.
I also thank you for taking a moment to explain more about Islam to us. I am not a believer of any faith system anymore but I come from a Judeo-Christian background, which is different in some essential points from Islam. When you share about your belief system, which is clearly central to your decisions to go along with polygyny even though it distresses you, it helps me to understand. Thank you for being willing to share something so fundamental to you.
I don’t know if it helps you at all to know this but I’d like to share that every point you made about polygyny and how it makes you feel is shared by many, many women living in polygyny — regardless of their religious persuasion. Your pain, discomfort, invidia, insecurity and hurt is not because of sin or selfishness, it is simply because you are a human being and have certain needs. Polygyny is a rejection to the “other” soţie, whether it is meant to be by the man or not. It creates insecurity and jealousy. Honestly, that’s why I cannot believe that a deity that loved its followers would ever declare that half of them have to put up with something so painful. But I don’t claim to have a godly understanding, so perhaps when I die I’ll receive yet another education.
Între timp, thanks for inviting us along for the ride. My mind expands every time I visit here.
February 17th, 2010 on 5:06 AM
Hi Rebeckah,
Sometimes I probably am not very clear in explaining things, which is why I’m so glad you ask for clarification. Although something can be clear in my mind, I may not express it in writing so it’s understandable to others.
I agree with you that many women that live polygamy, regardless of their religious beliefs, have the same emotions and feelings that I do. Thus it is why I think it so important that we share our feelings and thoughts, so we don’t feel so isolated and alone. All that everyone has shared has undoubtedly helped me to keep moving forward living this life, and makes living polygamy more bearable.
With our limited understanding, we just can’t comprehend why things are the way they are for us in life. But like you said, I think when we die we’ll receive another education. That’s the frightening part for me, as I don’t know whether my good deeds will outweigh my bad or where I will be going. I only know where I want to go.
Rebeckah, I’m glad you’ve taken the time to write such an encouraging comment. Sometimes I get very discouraged about writing anymore and ask myself – why bother? Why take myself through all of this (subjecting myself to accusations of misleading people, complaining and backbiting) on top of what I’m going through? Then I read a special comment, such as yours,
just at the time I need to hear words of inspiration the most and then I know I want to continue to write. There’s a lot of good in all of us being here; I truly believe. Thank you Rebeckah
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 18th, 2010 on 10:06 AM
Welcome back Ana. Sounds like you had a great time away! I’m VERY jealous of all that ziplining and jungle action. Should we start calling you and Alex, Jane and Tarzan?
(I’m not going to make the obvious joke here at Carolinah’s expense.)
A spus: “Allah says polygamy is PERMISSIBLE, not mandatory, desigur, but PERMISSIBLE for a man. My husband Alex became polygamous, whether against my will or not, which was his right. He acted on a RIGHT GIVEN TO HIM BY ALLAH. … Allah says it is OK for a man to engage in polygamy. Who am I to contradict Allah and say it is not OK? … Again I must say nowhere does Allah say a woman has any right to deprive her husband of his right to engage in polygamy. She has no right to deny him that right.”
Doesn’t the Quran say anything about the importance of honoring a vow? I understand that Alex is a good guy in lots of ways, and that you have many good reasons to want to stay with him. I’m not arguing with that. But what I don’t understand is why Alex didn’t have to honor his promise to you to stay monogamous. You say he had no right to make this promise, but I really don’t understand that. If polygamy is permissible, not mandated, then as you say, Alex had the right to choose it. But then surely he also had the right to NOT choose it, and that is what he did when he promised not to take a second wife. When he did take a second wife, he broke the vow that your decision to marry him was based on. Are you really bound to an agreement you never agreed to? Forgive me if I’m still not understanding something fundamental about the Islamic faith. In my reading of the Old Testament, vows were considered very, very important in the life of God’s people, and people were expected to keep them.
DAR, if you can look at the situation right now and say, ‘okay, I’m happy to stay in this situation’… perhaps then you are renewing and updating your marriage vow to include polygamy. IMO you have the right to do that, but I just hope it’s what you really want (or are truly convinced God wants) and can see a way to make it really work — for you, for Alex, and for Carolinah. I hate to sound like a broken record on this point, but I believe there is only true peace and happiness when we really know what we want and have reason to hope it will come about.
I’m not quite there either. Right now I’m trying to get a clearer picture of where I’m heading and putting all my energy and focus towards that. A marriage where husband and wife are divided and headed in opposite directions is an unhappy marriage. Similarly, a person who is divided within themselves is an unhappy individual.
I’m not saying happiness is everything, or that we should live for pleasure. I’m not a hedonist. To pursue righteousness and love for others is the most noble way to live our lives. What I do believe is that God loves us and wants the best for us, not just in the next life, but in this one too. I believe there is inner peace and joy, even in suffering, if we are on the path God wants for us.
February 18th, 2010 on 1:04 PM
Donald,
I know from your past posts that you are interested in the prospect of polygamy for you and your wife. What’s happening with that idea? Any progress? Changes?
February 18th, 2010 on 5:04 PM
Hi Donald,
It’s good to back amongst my good friends again.
Me Jane thank you for the welcome back
I think the reason we keep butting heads about the promise thing is because you and I put different emphasis on the value of promises. Once I became Muslim and began to learn about Islam and that Allah has complete control over the Heavens and the earth and that any control we as humans really have is an illusionary control, I began to view promises differently. Promises didn’t much matter to me anymore.
Promises, vows, contracts, treaties and things of that nature are to be honored and carried out in Islam. There are numerous Iyats (verses) in Quran that address those matters. As with everything, if we make a promise and fail to keep it, we will be held accountable for it and since Allah is a forgiving God, He would probably forgive the person who couldn’t keep his promise unless the person intended not to keep it.
I believe that the emphasis in Quran pertaining to convenants is on those that each of us make with Allah – our covenant with Allah when we took Shahada (vows a person makes upon becoming Muslim), vows to obey Him, worship none but Him etc. Covenants that matter most are the ones made with Allah, the convenants Noah and his people made, the covenants Moses and his people made, the covenant Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Jesus, Prophet Muhammad (Saw) et. al. and their people made with our Creator is most significant.
Regarding promises made by man, I don’t make promises simply because we don’t know the future as I’ve said before. Look at our daily lives. How many times have we said we’re going to do something tomorrow and didn’t do it? How many times have people taken marriage vows to love and cherish each other for the rest of their lives, till death do they part, but now are divorced? People are bailing out of marriages left and right. Should they be forced to stay in the marriage simple because they made promises although they couldn’t foresee what would happen in the future.
I could see how a man could end up hating his wife for making him promise not to engage in polygamy or for holding him to the promise. She has taken the position of being her husband’s Lord. How could he love that?
I like the way you phrased it that Alex and I may have updated our marriage vows to include polygamy. I think that is a good way for me to look at it. I intend to make my marriage to Alex work; although I truly have no concern for Carolinah. I don’t know how long my marriage with Alex will last. I don’t feel certain that it will be a permanent thing, but I don’t think a dislike for polygamy would be my reason for leaving, if I go.
You said: “To pursue righteousness and love for others is the most noble way to live our lives. What I do believe is that God loves us and wants the best for us, not just in the next life, but in this one too. I believe there is inner peace and joy, even in suffering, if we are on the path God wants for us.” Donald, that was beautifully said and I agree with you completely. This was a good discussion
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 18th, 2010 on 7:22 PM
You’re right Ana — I do put a lot of emphasis on promises. When someone promises me something and doesn’t follow through (or worse, does the exact opposite), that feels like a betrayal.
You said: “Regarding promises made by man, I don’t make promises simply because we don’t know the future as I’ve said before. Look at our daily lives. How many times have we said we’re going to do something tomorrow and didn’t do it?”
I think that is very wise. Better not to make promises than to make them and break them.
Perhaps where we disagree then is about marriage specifically? I believe marriage is one of those things that requires a very serious promise, since the investment is so great on every level. You’re trying to build a life with another person. If there is no security and trust, that’s like trying to build a house on shaky foundations.
February 18th, 2010 on 7:26 PM
Hi Judith. Gosh, did I really say that in a previous post? I think you must be reading between the lines.
My wife and I have no plans to marry again. There was a time we considered it, but it was never really something my wife wanted. She tried to be open to the idea, and even befriended a prospective second wife, but she did it not so much because she wanted it, but out of love for me and the desire to give of herself to another woman in need of love and security. I think you will agree, my wife is a truly amazing woman!
Right now we both feel like we’re in a transitional phase of our life together. We don’t know what’s around the corner, but whatever it is, we want to be truly united in it. I find the prospect of change exciting, whereas she tends to be a bit fearful of it… so for now we’re not rushing into any radical changes — certainly not polygamy!
For now we’re just trying to improve our lives in small but meaningful ways. Part of that is personal change (like my terrible sleep habits), and part of it is working on our relationship together.
February 18th, 2010 on 8:24 PM
Donald,
What you said is interesting. I understand what you said. You said: “I believe marriage is one of those things that require a very serious promise, since the investment is so great on every level. You’re trying to build a life with another person. If there is no security and trust, that’s like trying to build a house on shaky foundations.”
We hear people talking of promises, trust and security a lot. I never really understood what trusting someone meant. What is trust? Does it mean that someone will be the way we want them to be or do the things we want them to do or live the way we want them to live? How can we trust anybody to be any particular way, do any particular thing or live any particular way? Perhaps that is why everyone is so disappointed in relationships and marriages-because of expectations.
We can’t even trust our own selves as to what we will or will not do. How many times has someone done something totally out of character and wished they were awaking from a dream and it wasn’t real, only to find, yeah it’s real? How many times have our lives been totally turned upside down by events? How many times has what we least expected occurred in our lives?
I think the one and only thing we can trust in is God. Security comes from trusting in God. If a man and woman living in matrimony are on the same page with that, they’ve got a good working foundation for a successful, happy and peaceful life together. Altfel, we could throw that trust thing out the window
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 18th, 2010 on 10:13 PM
Thank you Donald for taking the time to answer my question. It is likely that I interpreted a speculative comment as being a specific plan, or as meaning something other than you intended. Internet communications are strange that way.
Frankly, I’m glad to hear you and wife have decided to focus on what you already have. I think there are too many options available to most people, and many people take on relationships without sufficient responsibility for the consequences.
As for bad sleeping habits, I commiserate. Sigh.
The conversation that you have been having with Ana about promises has been very interesting. A promise is always problematic, even when an effort is made to fully comply. I understand Donald’s position a little more readily than I understand Ana’s. But Ana, once you explained why you view a promise the way you do, I understood it better than I did at first. Mulţumesc.
j
February 19th, 2010 on 7:58 AM
A spus: “What is trust? Does it mean that someone will be the way we want them to be or do the things we want them to do or live the way we want them to live? How can we trust anybody to be any particular way, do any particular thing or live any particular way? Perhaps that is why everyone is so disappointed in relationships and marriages-because of expectations.”
Sigur, placing unreasonable expectations on people is only going to set you up for disappointment. But some expectations are perfectly reasonable. Every time you purchase bread you’re trusting the baker not to have poisoned it. Every time you get in an elevator you’re trusting that it has been properly built and maintained. Every time you fly in an aeroplane you’re trusting the maintenance crew and pilots to follow all the correct procedures to ensure a safe flight. These are all reasonable expectations wouldn’t you say?
If it’s reasonable to place expectations on people we hardly know, then surely it’s reasonable to expect certain things from the partner we choose to journey through life with. I’m not talking about squeezing the toothpaste tube from the bottom, or leaving the toilet seat down (although these things might demonstrate courtesy) — I’m talking about things like honesty, integrity, faithfulness, love and respect. These things need to be present, at least to some degree, for a marriage to be happy and healthy.
I think it goes without saying that we should choose a marriage partner who is trustworthy. A wedding vow is a promise, and a promise is meaningless unless it comes from someone who is trustworthy.
February 19th, 2010 on 8:08 AM
Oh Ana, what happened to the monkey animation? It was cute!! BRING BACK THE MONKEY! Pleeeeeeease??
February 19th, 2010 on 10:18 PM
Donald, I had to remove our little monkey friend. My conscience began to bother me on that one. It was kind of cute though. I had fun with it for a little while; that’s for sure.
Would you happen to know who this fellow is?
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 21st, 2010 on 7:23 AM
Thanks for the response Ana… although I think you might have accidentally put it in the wrong thread… Anyway, I agree in principle about needing to ‘be on the same page’ spiritually. As I said earlier, ‘A marriage where husband and wife are divided and headed in opposite directions is an unhappy marriage.’
Hmm… I’m not sure who your little red friend is. She reminds me of those flying things in Avatar. I give up… You’re gonna have to tell me…
February 21st, 2010 on 1:35 PM
Well it looks like a pterodactyl or a pteranodon. Can’t be archaeopteryx – no feathers. And she doesn’t look nice enough to be Petrie’s mother on the Land Before Time movies.
February 21st, 2010 on 2:28 PM
And the winner is…REBECKAH!!!
Da, this red fellow
is Pterodactyl.
Well done Rebeckah. Well done!
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 21st, 2010 on 7:45 PM
Bine desigur it’s a pterodactyl. Sheesh, anyone could have told you that! I thought it must have been a trick question. lol.
Fine. You may have won this round… But I’ll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!!
February 21st, 2010 on 10:02 PM
Yeah Donald – I was a bit taken back that you didn’t know who the creature was
I certainly had no clue who or what it was. I just saw it and thought it quite peculiar just like all fantasy creatures are to me. So I figured I ask you who he was. I know Alex would have known too. I gotcha that time and I wasn’t even trying ha, ha, ha. I was fascinated when Rebeckah began naming them lol.
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 22nd, 2010 on 1:28 AM
I remember pterodactyls from my childhood interest in dinosaurs, but I didn’t know the others Rebeckah named. Deci,, she’s a deserved winner.
Did you see Avatar? I’m often critical of hollywood blockbusters (picking them apart is a favorite pastime), but I don’t know… I just escaped to another world for two and half hours and enjoyed it thoroughly. I was all wide-eyed like seeing Star Wars for the first time as a kid.
February 22nd, 2010 on 5:56 AM
I saw Avatar. I thought it was excellent. I didn’t get to see it in 3D or Imax as it was around the Holidays and those two were completely sold out, so we had to opt for seeing it in the standard format. I’ll probably buy it on DVD, precum şi, when released
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 22nd, 2010 on 6:41 AM
In our discussions regarding promises, I failed to mention that in place of promises, I make sincere intentions. I make every effort to carry out what I intend. Acum, whether what I intend come to fuition or not is the will of Allah.
If I make no promises, no one gets hurt or disappointed if the promise can’t be carried out. Sincere intentions are best for me.
Aceasta este o casă deschisă. Nu este nevoie să bată. Doar vin pe la.
February 22nd, 2010 on 8:24 AM
Home, I understand where you’re coming from. I try to be cautious about making promises too, especially in situations where I can’t completely control the outcome. There is some Biblical support for that too:
‘Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” De ce, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”‘ (James 4:13-15)
But you can never really guarantee that people won’t get hurt or disappointed. That’s one promise you definitely can’t make!
Misunderstandings and unrealistic expectations can arise despite everyone’s best intentions. I guess God never promised us relationships would be easy huh.
February 22nd, 2010 on 10:27 AM
Home, perhaps if I take your attitude on promises I will be able to relax a little about the failure of others to live up to them. I’m not sure if I have the emotional ability to be that rational about the issue, but I think your take on them is very mature and reasonable.
And I have an advantage with the whole dinosaur thing; not only did I have a dinosaur mad son, I now have three dinosaur mad grandsons (and I’m sure the fourth grandson will be dinosaur mad shortly after he’s been potty trained in a year or so).
February 22nd, 2010 on 8:31 PM
We’re missing one thing in this discussion: the nature of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not pretending someone didn’t do the wrong thing by you, or pretending it doesn’t hurt. That’s denial. True forgiveness is acknowledging that someone did you wrong but choosing to let go of your right to revenge.
Forgiveness is hard when you’ve been badly hurt and betrayed, but it is a choice we can make. Sometimes you can make the choice, and then a day later the painful memories and emotions come back and you find yourself having to make the choice all over again.
Sometimes I think we equate emotional maturity to being able to directly control or suppress our emotions, but I’m learning that this is not healthy. Our emotions are signs of what is going on deeper inside, and we’d be wise to listen to what they’re trying to tell us. The worst thing anyone can do when you’re hurting is to say, you shouldn’t be feeling that way! În, the emotions are there for a reason. Perhaps it’s a sign that something inside needs to be fixed, but invalidating or ignoring the emotions is not the answer.
So I guess what I’m trying to say to you (Rebeckah, Home, and I guess me too) is don’t be too hard on yourself when your emotions seem to override ‘rational’ thought. It’s not your rational mind’s job to dismiss your emotions, but to learn from them.